Japanese knives ZDP189

[CommissionerLin]

Has anyone come across any Japanese knives constructed out of ZDP189? How and where might I find one? I've tried trolling the net without much success.

[helenjp]

Right here. Click the "specials" button under "prdoucts" and scroll aboutr half way down.

Alternatively, include "Hitachi" and "HRC 66" in your search criteria.

[Batard]

Most of the ZDP189 knives I have seen are tactical knives, not culinary. I don't know of any Japanese blades, but William Henry makes knife sets out of this steel (http://www.williamhenryknives.com/product/culinary/index.html). But at $2000 for a set of 5, I'd keep looking for those Japanese knives.

Anyone who wants to read more about this type of steel can check these PDFs.

* http://www.williamhenryknives.com/press-aw...rticles/ZDP.pdf

* http://www.williamhenryknives.com/press-aw...tactical-05.pdf

Edited December 4, 2007 by Batard (log)

[CommissionerLin]

Right here. Click the "specials" button under "prdoucts" and scroll aboutr half way down.

Alternatively, include "Hitachi" and "HRC 66" in your search criteria.

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Wow thanks Helen, bang on, that "SANETU" santoku looks like a gem. Pity its out of stock.

Anyone who wants to read more about this type of steel can check these PDFs.

Great articles Batard. I'd heard that ZDP blades have great edge retention but I've also heard that they can be very tough to sharpen. Is this true?

[CommissionerLin]

Right here. Click the "specials" button under "prdoucts" and scroll aboutr half way down.

Helen, thanks for referring the JCK website to me. Although the Sanetu ZDP189 was unavailable, I managed to slake my thirst for a new knife by purchasing not one but two Hattori diving knives. I knew that Hattori made culinary and hunting knives but I had not known hitherto that he made diving knives as well. The photos were irresistable and well...I succumbed.

[Octaveman]

Send Koki at JCK an email inquiring when they will get more. He will get back to you pretty quickly.

[Octaveman]

Just noticed...the ZDP189 knives are now available now at JCK.com

[CommissionerLin]

Just noticed...the ZDP189 knives are now available now at JCK.com

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Oh great. Have you ever sharpened a ZDP 189 blade? Are they tougher to sharpen compared to high carbon steel?

[Octaveman]

I have not but I've heard it can be difficult. Any knife with high HRC would be tough to sharpen really. Also how you sharpen or what stones you use can make it difficult or easy.

Actually, the only time you would have a hard time with it is when it comes time to thin the blade. Regular sharpenings should not pose much of a problem. Keeping it touched up on the stones should be just as easy. Although I've never owned one, I've heard they're great knives.

Edited December 7, 2007 by Octaveman (log)

[D & R Sharpening]

I've sharpened one or two of those Sanetu (sp?) santokus before and don't recall it being a problem to do.

--Dave--

[D & R Sharpening]

Also how you sharpen or what stones you use can make it difficult or easy. 

So true.

--Dave--

[CommissionerLin]

Thanks Octaveman, thanks Dave. I think I will take the plunge.

BTW the Hattori diving knives arrived on Friday. I think these may be the sharpest diving knives I have ever come across. It seems like a real waste to take one of these gems underwater where contact with saltwater, fishbone and reef will surely take its toll. Maybe this one is destined for the collecter's cabinet...

[rmillman]

Wow:

The people at JCK are amazing. I saw this thread, read the post that JCK had them back in stock, ordered it that day it it showed up today in Boston: sent from Japan.

I would highly recommend this seller and the knife . . . UMG, it is crazy sharp and has a great hand feel.

[Octaveman]

That's their standard shipping too and only for $7 up to 5 knives. Koki et.al. are great people to deal with. Glad you like the knife. Post some pics!

[dougal]

Mine arrived today.

Beautiful.

And sharp.

Its not at all heavy, but, out of the box, it will ever-so-nearly slice carrot under its own weight.

Not at all surprised about the warnings not to cut hard things with it, like bone.

Bit surprised to see Pumpkin included on the list.

Very surprised to see Pineapple.

Surely its not *that* delicate a surgical instrument, is it?

[Octaveman]

Yeah, I'm surprised about pumpkin but not so much about Pineapple as it has those knots (for lack of a better word) on the rhind that could catch the edge.

Japanese knives are taken down to very acute bevels...usually around 8-10* per side. This creates a superior slicing machine but also creates a somewhat weaker edge depending on the blade material. Steels like ZDP189 can handle the most acute angles quite nicely while others like VG10 could have issues. To account for this, anyone can change the original angles to be slightly more obtuse. By doing so, you create a stronger edge that can handle hard rhined veggies/fruits with no problem. If it gets little micro chips, so what. The knife is still vey usable. No need to grind down your knife for every little chip that comes along. The knives edge is still strong enough to keep going. Next time you sharpen, change your angle so it won't chip as much. It takes several sharpenings for your knife to become your own and perform flawlessly. So to answer your question, it's not THAT delicate but can be slightly modified to make it less so.

Edited December 13, 2007 by Octaveman (log)

[paulraphael]

I think the issue is less hardness of the food than a kind of toughness that could grab the edge of the blade. If the blade catches in something of certain consistencies, and you torque it one way or another, you could chip the edge. After a certain degree of hardening, kinfe steel takes on a brittle failure mode, so it chips instead of bending. I have some softer knives with faint ripples in the edge; those would likely have been chips if I did whatever I'd done with my gyuto.

I don't cut a lot of pineapple, so I don't have much sense of it. I read elsewhere that by "pumpkin," JCK might be talking about some heavier duty kinds of squash or gourds.

Edited December 13, 2007 by paulraphael (log)

[dougal]

...  I read elsewhere that by "pumpkin," JCK might be talking about some heavier duty kinds of squash or gourds.

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Thanks for the instant responses!

Also worth noting (and possibly implicit in Paul's comment) is that the "care instructions" (being outside the knife's own packing) are probably extremely general, rather than specific to this wonder knife, which I hope will deliver exceptional cutting (check), without as much fussiness (as to frequent sharpening, or excessive delicacy) as an 'ordinary' special knife... ! (I'm looking forward to finding out )

[EdS]

I don't cut a lot of pineapple, so I don't have much sense of it. I read elsewhere that by "pumpkin," JCK might be talking about some heavier duty kinds of squash or gourds.

←

The reference is to kabocha, otherwise known as Japanese pumpkin or Japanese squash. It's a common Japanese ingredient.

[CommissionerLin]

Mine arrived today.

Beautiful.

And sharp.

Its not at all heavy, but, out of the box, it will ever-so-nearly slice carrot under its own weight.

Surely its not *that* delicate a surgical instrument, is it?

←

Hi can I confirm that you bought the SANETU ZDP189? I have been eyeing that knive but haven't quite taken the plunge yet. I look forward to hearing your views on whether its worth its price. How does does its edge retention properties sit with ease of sharpening?

[dougal]

Mine arrived today.

Beautiful.

And sharp.

Its not at all heavy, but, out of the box, it will ever-so-nearly slice carrot under its own weight.

←

Hi can I confirm that you bought the SANETU ZDP189? I have been eyeing that knive but haven't quite taken the plunge yet. I look forward to hearing your views on whether its worth its price. How does does its edge retention properties sit with ease of sharpening?

←

Yes, that's the knife.

Comparative value? No idea, yet. Out of the box its the sharpest knife I've ever used. Its price translates to within a few beers of Amazon UK's price for a fluted Global Santoku.

Which makes it seem like a mega-bargain compared to any other kitchen knife in Cowry or ZDP.

Not Champagne on a beer budget, but something better than First on a Business Class ticket.

But its still the most expensive knife I've bought. *

I have no idea (and don't plan on immediately discovering) how difficult it is going to be to sharpen to an equivalent or better edge.

As yet I've no idea how long it will actually hold this edge in my light home use.

I regard it as an opportunity to 'calibrate' my own opinions, in an area far outside my normal experience.

I hope I remain awed (and slightly scared) by it...

I'm not a knife nut (yet).

* So far...

[Patapsco Mike]

I bought a ZDP189 knife two years ago, and learned the hard way that this steel is extremely prone to rusting and pitting. Worse than any other knife I've ever owned, including old high carbon non-stainless knives. I suspect this is why they don't want you to cut pineapple- I bet the corrosion will be just about instant. If you leave these knives wet for any length of time you will find surface corrosion.

Those with ZDP189 knives who don't want visible streaks on the blade will need to take care not to cut anything that is acidic. Don't believe me? Put a couple drops of lemon juice on the blade and leave it there for 5 minutes. Wash it off and you'll see the steel is already discolored.

I returned my knife, and will never own another ZDP189 blade. I have enough high maintenance things in my life... There are other true stainless steels out there that perform about the same with no maintenance issues. I ordered a S30V blade to replace it, and have been in high cotton ever since.

Edited to add- whoa- they advertise these on their site as "rust proof" in the next sentence after they say "high carbon." That's a bit like saying "creamy, succulent AND low fat."

Edited December 14, 2007 by Patapsco Mike (log)

[Octaveman]

ZDP189 is like any other stainless knife...rust and stain "resistant", not 100% stainless. I've had VG10 knives stain and actually rusted when my wife left the knife in a glass of water to soften the dried on food from her use. Pissed off to say the least. Point is that reasonable care should be made when using. Cut something acidic? Rinse it off when your done.

Regarding the rust proof claim on JCK's site. Lets not forget that we are dealing with Japanese people who do know the english language but there are subtle differences in translation/understanding that do not come across correctly. The "pumpkin" mentioned above is one example. If you look hard enough, you will find other inconsistancies but the intent is never to deceive the visitor.

Dougal, I really don't think it will be that hard to sharpen. If you do regular touch-ups and don't LET it get dull, then it won't be a tough job to sharpen it. When it comes time to thin it though....good luck.

[Patapsco Mike]

ZDP189 is like any other stainless knife...rust and stain "resistant", not 100% stainless.

←

I agree that no stainless (except H1) is completely rustproof, but based on my personal experience and that of other knife nuts I think you'll find that ZDP189 is far more prone to both surface rust and pitting than any of the normal stainless steels used in high end kitchen cutlery (e.g. 440 a and c, VG10, and S30V).

I also strongly suspect this is why they don't want you cutting pineapple. Try the lemon juice test and see...

[Fugu]

Although JCK does not mention it on their website, the ZDP-189 being offered is clad in ATS-34 stainless and is supposed to be more rust resistant than the ZDP-189. Here http://www.foodieforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=1361

Edited December 16, 2007 by Fugu (log)