Bad Behavior at a Restaurant Bar?

[prasantrin]

A little while back my wife went for a manicure and brought our two-year-old son along to the nail salon. He played with toys on the floor or whatever, and my wife had her manicure. At the end of the transaction, the owner told my wife politely and apologetically that they have a no-kids policy, and requested that next time my wife come alone. No problem. She has been back twice since. If, however, she had shown up and been chased away, I'm sure she would have boycotted the place forever. There's no sign up that says no kids, they don't tell you no kids on the phone, there's no advance warning and it's not something that every person with a clue would automatically assume. I'd hardly call that making an exception to the rule -- it's just a decision to enforce the rule in the least intrusive possible way. The rule happens to be wrong, and I oppose the rule, but if you're going to enforce it the nail-salon people got it right and the guy at the bar got it wrong.

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The situation is quite different. The amount of inconvenience caused to your wife by not knowing the policy and having to immediately conform to it would have been greatly different from that caused to Chris had he immediately conformed to the bar's policy.

It would have been much more difficult for your wife to have just "put away" your son. She would have had to leave immediately had she been told from the outset of her appointment than no children were allowed, unless she could have gotten someone to pick him up (which would have resulted in a delay in the appointment, and possibly a cancellation, anyway, if the manicurist were booked with back-to-back appointments).

In Chris' case, he merely had to put away the computer. Would that really have been such a hardship?

To further Chris' analogy to school policies, at my school, if a student brings a forbidden item to school, we tell them it's against school policy and not to bring it again. But we also take the item away immediately, and return it to them at the end of the day. We don't let them continue using the forbidden item just because they have it there, anyway.

[Fat Guy]

Chris had work he needed to get done, which means leaving was his only option. How is that any different?

[markemorse]

Typically when one has work one "needs" to get done, one doesn't go to a bar, do they? Unless that work is drankin'. Of course the same argument could be made over how badly one "needs" to get their nails done, but regardless:

I feel like a freakazoid posting so many times on this topic, but I really can't believe that there's such limited appreciation of what makes bars the wonderful refuges they are, or at least what makes them different from nail salons and schools.

ETA: and airports and Panera and Starbucks.

+++

Edited November 15, 2007 by markemorse (log)

[nibor]

Here's a story to lighten things up:

We were on vacation in the Adirondacks, and the only way we could get a wireless signal was to sit directly underneath a giant stuffed moosehead in the hotel lobby. We were sitting there with our laptops one evening when a waitress came out of the adjoining bar room. She said the guys in the bar wanted to know why we couldn’t just kick back and leave our work behind. I told her I had just replied to an email from my boss in California, and that he had no idea I wasn’t in my office. Seconds later I hear a roar of approval from the bar.

[Raoul Duke]

It's writer, like you guys, that spoil it for serious drinkers like me.

[Fat Guy]

Freakazoid: the guy has a day job running a school; he has already said there were constraints against writing at home. So he sought out a place of public accommodation where he could have a beverage and write on his computer. It happens all the time. It may be convenient for the casual checker of email to close up his laptop, but for Chris it was manifestly inconvenient: it was the antithesis of what he needed to be doing -- so much so that he felt he had no workable option other than to leave. Bars can indeed be wonderful refuges, and later that evening Chris found one that was a wonderful refuge for him. But Loie Fuller was not a refuge for Chris. It was a place where he was unwelcome, uncomfortable and inconvenienced -- all unnecessarily.

[markemorse]

Well then I guess I know where I'm drinking in Providence, don't I.

[Chris Amirault]

It's a great space, I'm telling you: relaxing, well designed. Why do you think I chose it?

[JohnnyH]

It's a great space, I'm telling you: relaxing, well designed. Why do you think I chose it?

←

Not sure if you've answered this already, but will you go back?

[SundaySous]

Here's a story to lighten things up:... I told her I had just replied to an email from my boss in California, and that he had no idea I wasn’t in my office. Seconds later I hear a roar of approval from the bar.

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Outstanding, they should build monuments for people like you.

[divalasvegas]

Freakazoid: the guy has a day job running a school; he has already said there were constraints against writing at home. So he sought out a place of public accommodation where he could have a beverage and write on his computer. It happens all the time. It may be convenient for the casual checker of email to close up his laptop, but for Chris it was manifestly inconvenient: it was the antithesis of what he needed to be doing -- so much so that he felt he had no workable option other than to leave. Bars can indeed be wonderful refuges, and later that evening Chris found one that was a wonderful refuge for him. But Loie Fuller was not a refuge for Chris. It was a place where he was unwelcome, uncomfortable and inconvenienced -- all unnecessarily.

←

Well, yes, but....................................

1) Was it really that dramatic? I mean phrases like "manifestly inconvenient" and "no workable option other than to leave" seems to be lending the situation described far more drama than necessary. Although I can testify that chrisamirault is by far one of the kindest, sweetest, most adorable gentlemen on the planet and that the owner could have delivered his message in a less confusing and frustating way, I'm still going to have to side with the owner. I know you hate this one Fat Guy but it is HIS place and he can set rules that you or others here may deem silly, arbitrary, capricious or just plain stupid. To paraphrase Bobby Brown "It's his perogative."

2) I like the fact that, at least for now, he seems to want to have a place that separates the work environment from a casual, relaxed environment. I also like the fact, again at least for now, that he just doesn't want the headache of addressing the situation individually and thinks it's just easier to just say no to all laptop usage.

3) He, like me, may also be pretty fed up with the entitlement mentality so prevalent in our society today (not saying that Chris harbors this mentality, btw). What I mean is the mentality that wherever one shows up, one is entitled to be accommodated. It's an "I need it, I NEED IT NOW and I expect whoever to accommodate me" attitude. In this particular case, it probably wouldn't have been a big deal, but as someone said earlier, but the owner's is probably afraid that word may get out that this bar is "laptop heaven" and that's clearly not what he wants.

Edited November 16, 2007 by divalasvegas (log)

[Fat Guy]

1) Was it really that dramatic?

Drama is in the eye of the beholder. If we accept the facts as presented here, my summary is simply accurate.

he can set rules that you or others here may deem silly, arbitrary, capricious or just plain stupid.

He certainly has done that!

2) I like the fact that, at least for now, he seems to want to have a place that separates the work environment from a casual, relaxed environment.

Chris wanted to write in a casual, relaxed environment, but was not allowed to do so.

3) He, like me, may also be pretty fed up with the entitlement mentality so prevalent in our society today (not saying that Chris harbors this mentality, btw).

I agree. Chris does not harbor that mentality at all.

[cakewalk]

Chris wanted to write in a casual, relaxed environment, but was not allowed to do so.

←

So are you saying that because Chris (or any other customer) wants to write in a particular type of environment, then any place he decides he likes because it actually has[i/] that type of environment should automatically allow him in? That's what he wants, so the heck with what others might want? All I'm getting from your comments is the attitude, "this is what I want, therefore that's the way it should be done." Is that really what you're saying?

[markemorse]

All I'm getting from your comments is the attitude, "this is what I want, therefore that's the way it should be done."

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I'm glad it's not just me...

[Fat Guy]

"this is what I want, therefore that's the way it should be done." Is that really what you're saying?

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Actually, that's the owner's position, and the position of everybody who says the "his place, his rules" truism ends the discussion. My point is that Chris was treated inhospitably, that there was no justification for doing so -- as in a good reason, not the "his place, his rules" power play -- and that it is simultaneously grandiose and petty to care if one person in a half-empty bar is using a laptop computer quietly in the corner.

[markemorse]

"this is what I want, therefore that's the way it should be done." Is that really what you're saying?

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Actually, that's the owner's position, and the position of everybody who says the "his place, his rules" truism ends the discussion. My point is that Chris was treated inhospitably, that there was no justification for doing so -- as in a good reason, not the "his place, his rules" power play -- and that it is simultaneously grandiose and petty to care if one person in a half-empty bar is using a laptop computer quietly in the corner.

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I think that's a yes, cakewalk.

[cakewalk]

"this is what I want, therefore that's the way it should be done." Is that really what you're saying?

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Actually, that's the owner's position, and the position of everybody who says the "his place, his rules" truism ends the discussion. My point is that Chris was treated inhospitably, that there was no justification for doing so -- as in a good reason, not the "his place, his rules" power play -- and that it is simultaneously grandiose and petty to care if one person in a half-empty bar is using a laptop computer quietly in the corner.

←

The "half-empty bar" is irrelevant. At what point does the balance tip? Two people with laptops? Five? Eight?

Many restaurant owners also decide on dress codes (for example.) Are they being "simultaneously grandiose and petty" to kick me out if I'm wearing jeans and a T-shirt? I don't think Chris was treated inhospitably. I do think the owner should have told him straight out, instead of beating around the bush, that was obnoxious. I also think a "no laptops" policy should be prominently displayed so that people know. But the owner of a restaurant calls the shots, not each individual customer. What you're saying is sort of like going to a steakhouse, ordering pizza, and then being pissed off because they don't have any. You want pizza? Go somewhere else, that's not what we do. You want to use your laptop? Go somewhere else, that's not what we do.

There are tons of bars on 9th Avenue with wall-to-wall TV screens, always with some sort of sports game on. How about if I went in there and said, "can you please turn off the televisions, they're giving me a headache and I'd just like to sit here quietly and sip my beer." That would be fun.

[Chris Amirault]

It's not at all like going to a steakhouse, ignoring the menu, and asking for pizza. It's a bit like going to a steakhouse, ordering steak, and then being told you can't read the paper while eating it -- but you can stay and eat the steak if you agree to keep the newspaper under the table.

I went to the bar in a restaurant, ordered a drink, sat down to drink the drink, and prepared to enjoy the drink, the bar, and the people there -- while writing on a laptop. I didn't go into the bar and ask for an oil change.

Just sayin'.

[slkinsey]

I don't see why there's even a question here: The guy doesn't want people working on laptops in his restaurant bar. Presumably he has good reasons for this, and I can think of several. Open laptops bring to mind Starbuck's, not a cool cocktail spot. And clearly what this guy wants is a cool cocktail spot, not some combination of airport lounge and cocktail bar.

Part of what you pay for when you go into a bar or restaurant is the atmosphere provided not only by the bar or restaurant itself, but also by the patrons who are in there with you. This is why, for example, certain restaurants have dress requirements. It's also why bars like Milk & Honey have strict behavior rules. You're not paying to go into Milk & Honey to be seated next to a bunck of Yaeger-shot taking, whooping and hollering frat boys trying to hit on your date. That's an extreme example, but I'm also not paying to go into a cool cocktail spot to hang out with three or four guys nursing a beer and tapping away on their laptops, reading the newspaper or playing a game of Bridge. Bars, in particular, are highly dependent upon image and "vibe."

Don't be so sure, by the way, that the other bars and restaurants mentioned wouldn't ask someone to close their laptop or stop playing cards.

Chris: Perhaps if you had been there at 4:30 instead of during the traditional cocktailing hour, you wouldn't have hadf any troubles. Perhaps if you had decided to write out your work longhand on a legal pad, you wouldn't have had any troubles. On the other hand, if you had a big folder of research and papers spread out over the table, you probably would have. That's the kind of thing for the coffee shop or perhaps the English model of the country pub -- but not for the urbane, sophisticated cocktail spot this place is trying to be. And I don't see that the fullness or emptiness of the room has anything to do with it whatsoever. If they don't want people opening laptops and/or working in there, they don't want people opening laptops and/or working in there.

I think the guy handled it as well as he could have. It's never easy to tell people they can't do something in your establishment that they clearly think is or should be okay (my first reaction upon being approached would have been to immediately close my laptop and apologize). And, of course, no one likes being told those things. Among my cocktail-world friends, I've known some who have had to ask customers to close laptops or put away work, stop playing cards, and even to either start ordering drinks or free up the seats for the long line of waiting customers.

[cakewalk]

So what is your actual question here? Should they have made an exception for you? Or should they change their policy because you don't see any reason for it?

(And if the steakhouse analogy didn't hold up, we won't even begin on the oil change analogy. )

[markemorse]

It's not at all like going to a steakhouse, ignoring the menu, and asking for pizza. It's a bit like going to a steakhouse, ordering steak, and then being told you can't read the paper while eating it -- but you can stay and eat the steak if you agree to keep the newspaper under the table.

I went to the bar in a restaurant, ordered a drink, sat down to drink the drink, and prepared to enjoy the drink, the bar, and the people there -- while writing on a laptop. I didn't go into the bar and ask for an oil change.

Just sayin'.

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Well, Chris...I'd be surprised as hell if the guy would change your oil. He wouldn't even let you use your laptop.

[Chris Amirault]

So what is your actual question here?

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I asked the question at the top:

Which side are you on? Rejecting the evil glow and the subtle pitter-patter of the keyboard on the one hand, or hospitably treating those neighborhood denizens who choose to work with such technology while imbibing on the other?

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I think that several people are comfortably settling into one side or another. To wit:

Part of what you pay for when you go into a bar or restaurant is the atmosphere provided not only by the bar or restaurant itself, but also by the patrons who are in there with you. This is why, for example, certain restaurants have dress requirements.  It's also why bars like Milk & Honey have strict behavior rules.  You're not paying to go into Milk & Honey to be seated next to a bunck of Yaeger-shot taking, whooping and hollering frat boys trying to hit on your date.  That's an extreme example, but I'm also not paying to go into a cool cocktail spot to hang out with three or four guys nursing a beer and tapping away on their laptops, reading the newspaper or playing a game of Bridge.  Bars, in particular, are highly dependent upon image and "vibe."

I think Sam's making a key point: "vibe" is more important than a particular customer, no matter how well-trained and socialized he may be. I've been to the sorts of bars Sam mentions and just got back from the remarkable Violet Hour in Chicago, at which those kind of sensible rules make sense to me. (I mean, heck, I ordered a Negroni, not a shot of Yaegermeister.) But those places state their rules up front, making it clear that laptop-carrying scoundrels and frat boys need look elsewhere. In addition, they are destination cocktailian venues, not joints marketing themselves as neighborhood meeting places.

What I also don't quite understand, and what no one has really gotten to here, is the reasons for which a laptop computer destroys this vibe. As Sam wrote,

Perhaps if you had decided to write out your work longhand on a legal pad, you wouldn't have had any troubles. 

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Clearly, had I been Charles Baudelaire or Scott Fitzgerald, drinks in hand, penning away on a pad instead of on a screen, many people feel I'd have fit in better than I did. For many, many reasons, I'm neither Baudelaire nor Fitzgerald, but let's focus on the technology for now. Is this just Victorian-era predilection for the writerly arts and era-appropriate technology? Or are laptops fundamentally, like, a total bummer in ways I don't comprehend?

[slkinsey]

I went to the bar in a restaurant, ordered a drink, sat down to drink the drink, and prepared to enjoy the drink, the bar, and the people there -- while writing on a laptop. I didn't go into the bar and ask for an oil change.

How about: I went into the bar, ordered a drink, sat down to drink the drink and prepared to enjoy the drink, the bar, and the people there -- while painting a watercolor landscape on a small canvass. Or: -- while knitting a blanket. Or: -- while taking out some supplies and working on my "ship in a bottle." Or: -- while wearing my "wifebeater" undershirt after removing my shirt. Or: -- while snorting a few rails of coke off the tabletop.

These are all things that would be acceptable in certain mileux, from a university pub to a hippy wannabe fern bar to a biker bar, but not in a cool cocktail spot.

Is this just Victorian-era predilection for the writerly arts and era-appropriate technology? Or are laptops fundamentally, like, a total bummer in ways I don't comprehend?

Hard to say. But for myself, I find the idea of a guy scribbling a few things on a legal pad a whole lot more vibe-appropriate -- especially in a darkened bar -- than the glow from a laptop and some guy tapping away. Pecking away on a laptop in a bar is just too reminiscent of middle managers on business trips sending emails from the lounge at Holiday Inn.

Edited November 16, 2007 by slkinsey (log)

[Chris Amirault]

Right. But we're just not talking about a "cool cocktail spot" here. We're talking about a local hot spot that has been alleged, though not proven, to offer good cocktails. The jury's still out on that one, though: I originally asked for a Last Word, and the barkeep looked at me as if to say, "Sure, go ahead. You can have the last word."

[slkinsey]

Right. But we're just not talking about a "cool cocktail spot" here. We're talking about a local hot spot that has been alleged, though not proven, to offer good cocktails. The jury's still out on that one, though: I originally asked for a Last Word, and the barkeep looked at me as if to say, "Sure, go ahead. You can have the last word."

We're presumably talking about a place that wants to be a cool cocktail spot.

And, you know... let's not get ahead of ourselves here. There are maybe 25 bars in America where you can expect that the bartenders will be recognize and be able to make you a Last Word, and you're in Providence.