The NYC ramen topic 2007-

[Fat Guy]

New York City seems to be in the midst of a ramen trendlet. We've had a lot of discussion of Setagaya lately, but I thought that with new places opening it would probably not make sense to repeat the general discussion of ramen on a new topic for each restaurant. So, I'm starting this topic as a place to compare notes on all the local ramen offerings.

A new ramen place opened in my neighborhood a couple of weeks ago. Yes, a ramen place on the Upper East Side. I didn't even notice it -- I got the info from a mention on Eater derived from a mention on Mouthfuls. It's called Naruto Ramen, and it's located at 1596 Third Avenue, between 89th and 90th Streets. Business hours are noon until 10:30pm, seven days a week. Phone number 212-289-7803. They also deliver.

There are actually quite a few Japanese-Americans living on the Upper East Side, as well as Asian-Americans in general. I especially see a lot of young mothers with a child in a stroller around on Third and Second Avenues. The crowd at Naruto Ramen at 6:30pm was exactly that: there were four young Asian (probably Japanese) mothers spaced along the long counter, each with one child, no connection to one another, having dinner.

I was pleasantly surprised at the quality of the offerings. Naruto is certainly not as exacting about quality as Setagaya. At the same time, because I prefer this style of ramen (less fishy, more meaty), I enjoyed the meal more than I enjoyed Setagaya (I was probably the least impressed by Setagaya of all the people posting on that topic). For $8.50 you get a choice of Naruto ramen, miso ramen or curry ramen. I had the Naruto ramen, which has broth spiked with soy sauce, nicely al dente (or whatever the Japanese adjective is to describe toothsome noodles) noodles, slices of bamboo shoot, half a medium-boiled egg (still a little soft in the yolk), scallions, a big piece of nori, bean sprouts, a slice of fish cake, and a couple of pieces of roast pork. Overall, a very satisfying bowl of soup, though the pork itself was not particularly well prepared. S&B brand "la yu" chili oil and "table pepper" on the counter. I also had very good gyoza -- surprisingly good, with extremely thin skins and flavorful pork-and-herb filling -- cooked in one of those lidded contraptions that steams and sears at the same time. $4.50 for 5 dumplings.

There's a bunch of other stuff on the menu: curry with pork katsu, chicken katsu or kara age; similar platters without the curry; fried rice; a few other appetizers and toppings. Haven't tried anything but the ramen and gyoza, though. No alcohol at this time. Cash only.

I thought it might be a good idea to make a list of all the ramen places in town, their addresses, contact information, websites if any, plus links to any older topics where they've been discussed. Anybody want to take a stab at a few?

[edited to correct the phone number -- menu font makes the 3 look like a 9]

Edited November 5, 2007 by Fat Guy (log)

[LilianNY]

Menkuitei 60 west 56th street between 5th and 6th (closer to 6th) is terrific. My whole family loves it. But the special add-on (friend rice) is not worth it.

[Todd36]

]

A new ramen place opened in my neighborhood a couple of weeks ago. Yes, a ramen place on the Upper East Side. I didn't even notice it -- I got the info from a mention on Eater derived from a mention on Mouthfuls. It's called Naruto Ramen, and it's located at 1596 Third Avenue, between 89th and 90th Streets. Business hours are noon until 10:30pm, seven days a week. Phone number 212-289-7809. They also deliver.

There are actually quite a few Japanese-Americans living on the Upper East Side, as well as Asian-Americans in general. I especially see a lot of young mothers with a child in a stroller around on Third and Second Avenues. The crowd at Naruto Ramen at 6:30pm was exactly that: there were four young Asian (probably Japanese) mothers spaced along the long counter, each with one child, no connection to one another, having dinner.

←

What I believe is the oldest Japanese grocery store in NYC, Katagari, has been operating at 224 East 59th since 1907. Its been a Japanese area for a while. In addition, Kondo used to be at Kondo Grocery - 212-794-7065 - 314 E 78th Street New York, NY 10075 (2nd & 1st), but its been gone for at least 5 years.

http://www.katagiri.com/hist.htm

[Hiroyuki]

Let me contribute to this thread with some ramen-related terms:

(seasoned) bamboo shoot: menma or shinachiku

a slice of fish cake: probably naruto

Naruto images

or perhaps kamaboko?

Kamaboko images

ra yu or la yu:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayu

Personally, I hate ra yu because it irritates my lips.

When I have gyoza, I usually make a dipping sauce by mixing one part vinegar and one part soy sauce together.

One of the most important terms will be

nobiru (lit. to lengthen): to get soft

Once cooked, noodles get soft! You must finish off a bowl of ramen in a short time, say, within ten minutes. I, for one, am a fast eater, and capable of finishing off a bowl of ramen in five minutes.

Finally, you must slurp up noodles. "Zuru-zuru" (slurp, slurp)! That's probably the most difficult part of ramen eating for non-Japanese people.

[weinoo]

I like Rai Rai Ken...they serve pretty good gyoza as well.

Rai Rai Ken

214 E. 10th St.

(212) 477-7030

[Fat Guy]

a slice of fish cake:  probably naruto

Naruto images

or perhaps kamaboko?

Kamaboko images

At the restaurant I described, it was naruto -- the name of the restaurant is Naruto Ramen.

ra yu or la yu:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayu

Personally, I hate ra yu because it irritates my lips.

The product I see in New York, made by S&B, says "La Yu" on the label. I don't like it either. I also don't like the "Table Pepper" product very much. I like the "Ichimi" (red pepper powder), though.

When I have gyoza, I usually make a dipping sauce by mixing one part vinegar and one part soy sauce together.

At Naruto Ramen, and at most places where gyoza are served in New York, they bring a little dish of vinegar-soy dipping sauce already mixed.

Finally, you must slurp up noodles.  "Zuru-zuru" (slurp, slurp)!  That's probably the most difficult part of ramen eating for non-Japanese people.

←

I keep reading articles that say slurping is losing favor in Japan. Is it true?

[raji]

The state of ramen affairs in NYC, up until last summer at least, was discussed in this THE BEST thread...

Thanks for the info Hiroyuki - and you can definitely see how idiosyncratic ramen-eaters are. I happen to love rayu.. it's one of many ways you can enhance the taste of your broth by the time you've finished off all the noodles - it's almost like a 2nd bowl of soup -

Which does make it tough to objectively rank the ramenya, as it's a very personal preference. I happen to not be a fan of the seafood base of Setagaya's ramen, the styles I like most are tonkotsu/kyuushu-style also known as hakata-men, which means I like a pork-stock based broth and skinnier noodles. Also like spicy miso, and hiyashichuuka. I certainly LIKE a tokyo-style shoyu or shioramen, but not Setagaya's.

I still maintain, with all objectivity, that the best ramen in the tri-state area is to be found at Santouka located at the giant Japanese supermarket Mitsuwa across the Hudson @ Edgewater. It's really easy to get to, but I'm there occasionally because I regularly cook Japanese food and need staples

595　River Road,Edgewater,NJ 07020

MITSUWA MARKET PLACE ニュージャージー店フードコート内

# 201-941-1004

# 11:00〜20:00(ラストオーダー 19:30)

I am DESPERATELY awaiting Hakata Ippudo's opening. After Santouka, this was probably my 2nd or 3rd favorite ramenya regularly available around Tokyo and I think will blow anyone else in Manhattan outside of the water.

Occasionally I'll have a ramen at SABURI, on Lexington between 30th and 31st. While not a dedicated ramenya, the chef IS ethnically Chinese and ramen is a Chinese import at the end of the day, and theirs is quite good. Also, as Chikubu proved, the best ramen in the city could be served by a restaurant that is not a dedicated ramen shop. They had ramen on Friday's only for lunch and were easily the best in the city.

After that it's a matter of convenience, and to be honest, it's a bit of a game of whackamole among MENKUITEI, MENCHANKOTEI, ROCKMEISHA, RAI RAI KEN, MINCA (I've ranked in order of my preference, although n.b. the midtown Menkuitei is a lot better than downtown)..

All of them really have their good days and their bad. They are normally staffed with a single ojisan (older staffer carrying the torch) mentoring young Japanese who are here as English students, so staff turnover can be high and therefore relative skills at ramen-making inconsistent. And supply and demand is very inconsistent, so the quality of the ramen you get may very well depend on how many bowls were served that day and when they last saw their vegetable and meat suppliers. It also depends on what you order where. Menchankotei's signature dish is actually quite good, if that's your sort of thing. Menkuitei might have a special ramen on their menu, a seasonal one, that outpaces their others. After years of grilling dozens upon dozens of Japanese nationals in NY, young and old, from Sapporo to Tokyo to Hiroshima, experienced, lifelong ramen-slurpers, it's clear that this inconsistency is a big problem, especially to the downtown Ramenya. Setagaya brings a consistent formula, but I will bet you guys dollars to donuts that Ippudo will blow them away if they make ramen half as good as they do over in Japan.

Edited October 17, 2007 by raji (log)

[MumonA]

I keep reading articles that say slurping is losing favor in Japan. Is it true?

A lot of ramen places have introduced oversized renge (the flat-bottomed Chinese spoon, either plastic or ceramic) in the past decade. A portion of noodles is placed on the renge, along with some toppings. The noodles are then eaten from the renge with the chopsticks, pretty much eliminating any slurping. A workable compromise for those who do not wish to have lard-laden splatters on their shirt/blouse -- salarymen on lunch break or fashionable young women -- but this method of consumption also mutes the visceral experience of eating ramen. Personally, I find the the practice somewhat pretentious.

Is slurping losing favor? Probably depends on the demographic. I'm fairly certain my Japanese grandmother was never a ramen slurper, while my 60-year-old baby boomer aunt certainly slurps. As a mid-30s Japanese guy who grew up in the U.S., I slurp in Japan when alone. But with company in Japan or eating in the U.S., I try to go with the flow. The younger generation in Japan seems to be anti-slurping right now, but others may have a better sense regarding the overall trend.

Edited October 17, 2007 by MumonA (log)

[raji]

When I'm in Japan, I utilize the oversized renge to pre-game my dose of ramen, as a lot of times it can be too hot and needs to be blown on as well. Otherwise, I usually end up slurping and burning the roof of my mouth, which I don't notice until the next day, depending on how much I have been drinking.

Where can I see those anti-slurping articles?

You won't find TOO many women slurping, slurping is very much the territory of the Japanese salaryman, but it really does cut across demographics. I mean, when you are starving for a ramen, you WILL slurp those noodles down whole... and the whole slurping thing is more about going at your bowl of ramen with gusto. My Japanese friends consistently outpace me, I simply cannot consume that much food so quickly, but it's certainly done with within 10 minutes. I was taught to slurp my ramen down in 5-10 minutes lest the noodles fatten up from the soup...

[Hiroyuki]

You put it well, raji, as usual.

slurping is losing favor in Japan.

I don't think it's true. If you ever think it is, it's probably because some Japanese like to say that slurping is bad manners in Western countries. In Japan, slurping is the way to go when you eat noodles, not just ramen noodles but also udon, soba, and somen and even spaghetti.

I'm not saying that slurping is totally acceptable; slurping loudly isn't pleasing to anyone in any country, but you sure can slurp and eat elegantly.

[Fat Guy]

Here's a report that ran on NPR awhile back. The summary is:

NPR's Eric Weiner reports from Tokyo on the traditional Japanese etiquette for eating and enjoying noodles. Slurping, once considered a normal part of fine dining, is losing favor in Japan.

[Fat Guy]

Went back to Naruto Ramen this evening and tried the miso ramen. Very nice. Similar to the regular house ramen but with a miso-enhanced broth, the addition of corn kernels and, I think, some butter in there. Definitely want to try the curry ramen soon. Also had the kara age (chunks of boneless fried chicken) as an appetizer -- not a particularly great example -- and a small order of pork fried rice that was not as good as what the average crummy Chinese restaurant serves.

I really don't get the naruto fish cake. Do Japanese people really think this stuff tastes good? I've never tasted an example that I liked. To me it tastes overly processed, with a fishy taste but no actual fish flavors and a mushy texture.

[Hiroyuki]

Went back to Naruto Ramen this evening and tried the miso ramen. Very nice. Similar to the regular house ramen but with a miso-enhanced broth, the addition of corn kernels and, I think, some butter in there. Definitely want to try the curry ramen soon. Also had the kara age (chunks of boneless fried chicken) as an appetizer -- not a particularly great example -- and a small order of pork fried rice that was not as good as what the average crummy Chinese restaurant serves.

I really don't get the naruto fish cake. Do Japanese people really think this stuff tastes good? I've never tasted an example that I liked. To me it tastes overly processed, with a fishy taste but no actual fish flavors and a mushy texture.

←

You are absolutely right about naruto!! It's more like a garnish or ornament than an ingredient. But my feeling is that a bowl of ramen without a slice of naruto is sooo wrong! This is from a native Japanese in his forties. I'm not sure what younger people think of naruto.

Sorry I can't read or listen to the article upthread. Can someone copy and paste any important passages from the article?

[MumonA]

I really don't get the naruto fish cake. Do Japanese people really think this stuff tastes good? I've never tasted an example that I liked. To me it tastes overly processed, with a fishy taste but no actual fish flavors and a mushy texture.

Can't speak for others, but I'm with you on this one. Previously addressed here in the Momofuku Noodle thread.

[Fat Guy]

Sorry I can't read or listen to the article upthread.  Can someone copy and paste any important passages from the article?

←

The radio broadcast begins "Slurping is as Japanese as sumo wrestling . . ." and gives a little background on slurping.

"But," the report continues, "like many things in Japan, the tradition of slurping is undergoing change. Many young Japanese simply don't have the passion for it."

They interview a 22-year-old Japanese woman who can't stand the sound of middle-aged men slurping, and who refuses to slurp. The report goes on to say that Japan's older generation is concerned about the loss of this cultural tradition, and reports that there have been newspaper editorials in Japan denouncing the decline of slurping.

The report concludes by saying that some young Japanese are now even eating their noodles like pasta, swirling them around the utensil before eating them in one bite.

[Hiroyuki]

Thanks, Fat Guy!

Here's one questionnaire:

http://kotonoha.cc/no/33252

Do you slurp up noodles?

Yes: o

No: x

So far, more young Japanese have said yes (37 vs. 27).

Here's another:

http://kotonoha.cc/no/22493/2#comments

When eating ramen, do you put some on your renge and blow on it?

So far, more young Japanese have said no.

Caution: Both questionnnaires are in Japanese only.

[LPShanet]

When I'm in Japan, I utilize the oversized renge to pre-game my dose of ramen, as a lot of times it can be too hot and needs to be blown on as well. Otherwise, I usually end up slurping and burning the roof of my mouth, which I don't notice until the next day, depending on how much I have been drinking.

Where can I see those anti-slurping articles?

You won't find TOO many women slurping, slurping is very much the territory of the Japanese salaryman, but it really does cut across demographics. I mean, when you are starving for a ramen, you WILL slurp those noodles down whole... and the whole slurping thing is more about going at your bowl of ramen with gusto. My Japanese friends consistently outpace me, I simply cannot consume that much food so quickly, but it's certainly done with within 10 minutes. I was taught to slurp my ramen down in 5-10 minutes lest the noodles fatten up from the soup...

←

I'm not comparing it to any of the other specific ramens I've had in town (Rai Rai Ken, etc.) but I've had some very good ramen at Tsukushi. Since there isn't a menu, you either have to ask for it, or hope that he serves it as a last course (it's one of three or four things he often rotates in to close out the main part of the meal). Nicely balanced flavor, though it doesn't have all the traditional garnishes that you'd get at a place that did ramen as the meal.

[raji]

I didn't know Tsukushi even served ramen! Chikubu had the best and is now closed, but I don't think it's unfair to compare to dedicated ramen-only restaurants. Saburi's is great, and Rockmeisha's is even better. Many Japanese restaurants around the city have one if not several ramens on their menus. Does anyone know of any other restaurants who serve partricularly good bowls of ramen? It's been awhile, but I recall that the midtown Sapporo restaurant had a very good sesame ramen, while the other kinds they offer are not as good.

[LilianNY]

I stumbled on this site for Ramen lovers:

http://www.worldramen.net/

[Hiroyuki]

I stumbled on this site for Ramen lovers:

http://www.worldramen.net/

←

This is BON's site! BON was a former member, and now he's a legacy participant...

[lardo]

definitely minca!

[HungryChris]

I am no authority on ramen. We did go on a months long search for what I liked best a few years ago and found Menchanko Tei on 55th btw 5th and 6th. The first day that we ate there (for a cold December lunch) it was superb. Deb made the comment: "That was one of the best meals I have ever had."as we left and strangely enough, I knew just what she meant. We have gone back many times since and it was usually good. On occaision, not as steaming hot as I believe it should be as it arrived (of course this is all based on the movie Tempopo, which prompted the ramen search in the first place). We liked the Hakata ramen the best, with its combination of rich broth, slices of roast pork, black fungus (cloud ears or tree ears), red pickled sushi ginger and fresh chopped green onions. It was a meal we looked forward to. The last time we tried to go, just a few months back, it had been shut down by the board of health (both locations). Yikes!!

I don't know if it has reopened, but my guess is that the next time we go for ramen it will be somewhere else, perhaps the new Hakata chain mentioned upstream.

HC

Edited October 24, 2007 by HungryChris (log)

[raji]

On occaision, not as steaming hot as I believe it should be as it arrived (of course this is all based on the movie Tempopo, which prompted the ramen search in the first place). We liked the Hakata ramen the best, with its combination of rich broth, slices of roast pork, black fungus (cloud ears or tree ears), red pickled sushi ginger and fresh chopped green onions. It was a meal we looked forward to. The last time we tried to go, just a few months back, it had been shut down by the board of health (both locations). Yikes!!

I don't know if it has reopened,

←

Be careful what you wish for, if the bowl is really piping hot, you spend half the time blowing on it when you should be eating it, which is not desirable.

I saw Menchanko-Tei open as of a month or 2 ago, so I'm pretty sure it had reopened -

Seems like Setagya is worth a try for you.. not sure when Ippudo is opening...

[Fat Guy]

Finally made it back to Naruto Ramen on the Upper East Side to try the third and last species of ramen: curry ramen. It was my least favorite of the three, which isn't surprising since I rarely enjoy Japanese (or Korean) curry sauces either. I think by the time curry-type seasoning blends migrated from India through Southeast Asia and up to Japan and Korea they lost a lot of their interest. I think the miso ramen is going to be my favorite, followed by the regular ramen.

They're serving beer now.

[raji]

Japanese curry made it to the islands from India via the Brits, and somewhere along the line lost many layers of flavoring and spicing and became sweet. I like it, but I like it as a separate food and something hardly resembling the Indian curries I truly enjoy. I NEVER get a curry ramen tho - I can take a few spoonfuls of Japanese curry, but not a whole bowl of it. Last time I was in Japan there was a lot of buzz about "soup curry"... a bowl of Japanese curry soup with veggies and a piece of meat, chicken or fish. Didn't go there either.

FG I'll bet you a beer that I'll make you a kyuushu/hakata/tonkotsu-ramen once Ippudo opens up...