The Ontology of the Shun Ken Onion Chef's Knife

[Chris Amirault]

I'm the sort of cook who has always had to save my pennies and buy the best low- to mid-range equipment I can find: Sitram pots and pans, basic black Bradley smoker, that sort of thing. My knives are a case in point. My collection has grown over the decades and includes a trusted 20-year-old Wusthof classic 10" chef's knife, a few other Wusthof and Henckels blades, and some assorted others.

Over the years, I've treated them as important kitchen tools though not show pieces, and after some fits and starts I learned how to sharpen them with an EdgePro sharpener. Having the EdgePro around has enabled greater family happiness as well. Living in a house with three other people, I've chosen to encourage loving, supportive relationships over fastidious care of those knives, so sometimes the knives are left in a sink or dish drainer for a while until, suppressing a shrill tirade, I hand-wash them.

But there's change on the horizon: in a couple of months, I will become a proud owner of a Shun Ken Onion 8" chef's knife. I've been jonesing for one for about a year, when I tried it out at a friend's house; it felt remarkable in my left hand and slid through virtually everything with an ease I'd never had with any other knife. Out of the blue last night, the friend offered a brand new knife in a trade for some precious liquid (a bottle of this), and I accepted.

And I'm already getting nervous. Part of this has to do with a desire to learn more about how to care for this particular knife. I've read up here and elsewhere, but I'm still unclear about a few things. What can and can't you do with it? How long does it stay sharp with regular use? How do you get it sharpened? Does anyone sharpen it themselves, and if so, what bevel angles do you use? Are there any other special things one has to do to keep these objects happy, like cover its fetish rack in finest silk, place it on a high shelf, and avert your gaze?

I really do want to know answers to those questions, so please post them if you've got 'em. But that partial list (believe me, I have dozens more, and more obsessive, questions) is a symptom of a larger issue. I'm all a-tizzy about bringing a showcase kitchen item into my house.

Yes, I know that this isn't a $1,200 Hattori KD Damascus chef's knife, but it's probably the most expensive knife I'll ever own, and it's flummoxing me. Either this is yet another kitchen tool or a new category of thing deserving a new set of rules and regs, and I can't figure out which. I can already feel my stomach churning at the thought of a family member leaving it next to the sink with the edge bumping against a stovetop burner grate -- a common yet allowed crime in my household that I now wash away with a cocktail and an antacid. But if, unprepared, I see that sight with this Shun knife, a Negroni and Tums won't do the trick. Blood will be spilled.

So, to ready myself and family, what should I do? What would you do? Are all your kitchen things just things, or do some have greater power than others? Are you the sort who has rule books for each of your prized kitchen items, or are broken Riedel glasses and dented Mauviel sauciers common lifestyle features? (If the latter, feel free to send me those dented Mauviel sauciers; I'll cover postage.)

Time being what it is, I've got a good two months to wring my hands over this, not counting any weeks added on to the calendar for shrine construction. So bring it on.

[Abra]

Let me say this about that knife. In my move to France last week, that knife was definitely packed deep in my luggage. When the luggage was lost, I was really sweating about the knife. Now that it's found, I use it all day long.

I bought mine about a year ago, and let me admit it here, I haven't sharpened it yet. It's blazingly sharp still, but I'm longing to learn exactly how to sharpen up to its original level, it so I'll be glued to this thread.

[Live It Up]

I have a Shun classic 10 inch chef's knife that I have been using for about 2 years. I believe the blade construction is the same as the ken onion series. When I first got it it was amazingly sharp, but not so much anymore. I must admit that I am pretty bad about taking care of my stuff, but I don't know what I did to it to dull it so. I don't have a dishwasher, I don't store it in a drawer, I don't leave it in the sink. I did drop it last week and it now has a chip in the blade. Luckily, I think this is the push I needed to finally send it back to them for sharpening. One of the things that attracted me to Shun knives in the first place was that they don't really require any special care. Shun has a care page here, but it doesn't really contain anything surprising on it. Anyhow, I love my shun, and I am definitely having separation anxiety about sending it to be fixed, but I know it will be a good thing in the long run. Now I just have to get used to using my Wustof again while it's gone.

[Prawncrackers]

Chad Ward's tutorial on Knife Maintenance and Sharpening is extremely useful. I have Shun knife too (amongst others) - a Chinese Cleaver. Sharp knives are a kitchen joy, keeping them sharp can be enjoyable too! I use waterstones and there is a certain meditative satisfaction in using them. Once you get the hang of it there's no turning back.

[Prawncrackers]

... and yes, it will change your life. You will wonder how you ever managed with such blunt knives before. You will probably be memerised by the "damascene" cladding reflecting it at all angles under the strongest spotlight in your kitchen. You will eat more vegetables. You will follow family members into the kitchen even though you know that they are just fixing a quick sandwich - just in case they have any funny ideas about cutting that sandwich with your knife directly on a plate. For at least a couple of weeks all your letters will be opened very neatly. I recommend you put your family through Compulsory Basic Knife Training straight away. Discard any who do not make the grade.

[Chris Amirault]

Abra: I broke out into a cold sweat with that story. Stop toying with my emotions.

Live It Up: Send it away? Whaa?!?

Prawncrackers: To what bevel angles do you sharpen it? How do you store it? What signs have you put up to enforce knife rules with the family? How do you adjudicate violations?

[Abra]

Chris, did you get the wooden holder with your knife? I did, and have always kept it there, even bringing the holder to France. That's undoubtedly contributed a lot to its sharpness, since the blade never touches anything unless it's in my hand.

[Anna N]

Chris,

My hubby used to own some extremely expensive camera equipment. He treated it with kid gloves. Always had the lens caps in place, always had the equipment suitably protected in highly expensive camera cases and bags. As a consequence we have very few exceptional photos! By the time he had the damn thing out of its cocoon, the lens cap removed, etc. etc., the sujbect/light/whatever had long gone!

The knife is a tool. An expensive and beautiful tool but just a tool nonetheless. Treat it with a reasonable amount of respect but don't become neurotic over it or allow it to become more important than the people in your life. Use it, enjoy it, SHARE it.

[Prawncrackers]

Chris, I do all my sharpening by hand so I judge the bevel angles by eye and feel alone. Every knife is different as is every user, Grasshopper! Actually, I’m sure one of the real Knife gurus around here could recommend the exact angle to use for your Edgepro system or they would, like me, persuade you to learn to use waterstones. If you’re getting this knife in a couple of months then that’s plenty of time to hone your sharpening skills on your other knives first.

BTW, I find the severing of one finger joint per infraction is usually enough to encourage proper knife usage or after a while no usage at all.

[Patapsco Mike]

Nothing like having a fantastic knife or 10. The only downside is you will really, really miss it if you ever have to do any cooking without it.

I spent a small fortune on a pair of custom kitchen knives. They are amazing. But if I'm at my Mom's and need to chop an onion, it's annoying.

[mojoman]

I bought an 8 inch Shun Classic Chef's knife a few months ago.

Caveat - Retarded Mojoman dropped the frickin knife onto my tile floor before I even used it once! The drop slightly bent the tip but I saw no other obvious damage.

Anyway, the knife was nice and sharp. However, over the course of the last few months, with rather light use (used maybe twice a week), it's not super sharp anymore, It won't cut a tomato cleanly.

I'm considering trading it back to my GF (who really doesn't cook). I had given her my Henkels heavy chef's knife when I bought the Shun. At least I can sharpen that puppy to a nice edge...it might need to be sharpened more often but it's old reliable for me.

[Chris Amirault]

Chris, did you get the wooden holder with your knife?

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I haven't yet, no. Is this essential? I use a magnetic knife holder on a wall; do I need a special shrine for this one? Music? Sage sticks?

The knife is a tool. An expensive and beautiful tool but just a tool nonetheless.  Treat it with a reasonable amount of respect but don't become neurotic over it or allow it to become more important than the people in your life. Use it, enjoy it, SHARE it.

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Tool: check. Respect, not neurosis: check. Use and enjoy it: check.

Share it? Huh?

Anyway, the knife was nice and sharp.  However, over the course of the last few months, with rather light use (used maybe twice a week), it's not super sharp anymore,  It won't cut a tomato cleanly.

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Won't cut a tomato after a few months? What else did you use it for?

[Prawncrackers]

The Ken Onion knife should come with it's own shrine !click!

As for the mojoman's tomato issue, all knives need to be sharpened after a while. Some are easier or more convenient to sharpen than others that's all. It's the eternal question with knives, do you go for the versatility and easy maintenence of Western-style knives. Or do you invest time in highly specialised and sometimes PITA Japanese ones?

[mojoman]

Anyway, the knife was nice and sharp.  However, over the course of the last few months, with rather light use (used maybe twice a week), it's not super sharp anymore,  It won't cut a tomato cleanly.

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Won't cut a tomato after a few months? What else did you use it for?

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Just some veggies and cooked meat/steak. Very light use too so I'm pretty disappointed since the Japanese knives are supposed to keep and edge for a long time.

[Patapsco Mike]

The Shun classic uses a VG10 steel core. It's a great stainless steel, some would argue it's the best stainless coming out of Japan right now. But you can't expect it to hold an edge like the newer supersteels. On the plus side, it's a whole lot easier to sharpen than S30V...

Get and learn how to use a strop. Just a few swipes on a strop and you will be back in business.

[Peter the eater]

Chris, I think many of us are envious of your forthcoming acquisition. I hope you'll share a photo of it (her?) complete with shrine, lighting, environmental controls or whatever you come up with.

[dls]

Let me say this about that knife.  In my move to France last week, that knife was definitely packed deep in my luggage.  When the luggage was lost, I was really sweating about the knife.  Now that it's found, I use it all day long. 

I bought mine about a year ago, and let me admit it here, I haven't sharpened it yet.  It's blazingly sharp still, but I'm longing to learn exactly how to sharpen up to its original level, it so I'll be glued to this thread.

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Abra - My experience pretty much mirrors yours. I received the KO about a year ago and have never sharpened it. I'm the only one in my family that uses it and I take pretty good care of it. It still seem as sharp as it was when I first got it.

A few months ago, I was taking the knife to a 2nd home I have in Sarasota, FL, connecting through Miami. Upon arrival, I learned that my bag decided to go to Port-Au-Prince, Haiti. When I finally got my bag, the knife was there but, my socks were missing. I guess I got lucky.

Prawncrackers - Thanks for posting the link for Knife Maintenance and Sharpening. . An excellent tutorial. After reading the piece, I came to the conclusion that my mentality, and impatience, won't allow me to get into the Zen of sharpening a ton of knives by hand in the traditional manner. The tutorial did recommend a number of devices to assist in sharpening, one of which I ordered today - The Spyderco Sharpmaker. Looks like it might be just the thing for a person like me.

The little stand thing is nice and it does its job in protecting the blade. On the other hand, it's just one more thing to take up valuable counter or cabinet space. I would much prefer a protective sleeve or guard that fits the blade. From what I can tell, these are not offered by the company.

[menon1971]

I was at a friend of my girlfriend's house a year or so ago and somehow I was volunteered to debone two ducks. I reached into the drawer and among the usual ersatz supermarket blades was a 10" Shun chefs knife, unfortunately it was dull as a second hand sermon (I have lived in the Deep South for four years and I guess it is starting to rub off). She let me take it back to the gf's house and I gave it a whirl on the Chef's Choice I bought her a year ago (I prefer a stone, but none was available). I have sharpened her Henckels a few times with great success, but man, was that Shun stubborn. I put a decent edge on it, but gave up giving it a super keen edge after what I considered to be a valiant effort. I came to find out later that it belonged to her professional "chef" roommate, and he had misplaced it. To make a long story short - keep that initial edge as long as you can!

[Chris Amirault]

Has anyone tried sharpening one with an EdgePro? And, again, does anyone know the bevel edges of this knife? Can it be known? I don't know how one can return the knife to its initial glory if you don't even know what angles you're aiming for.

[Chad]

Hi, Chris. Congratulations on your new knife! Perhaps I can help out with your questions. The Shuns are very good knives. I don't get along with the Ken Onion version, but I don't like "ergonomic" handles in general. They all seemed to be designed for three-fingered aliens. If you like the way it feels, that's all that matters.

Shun knives come with factory edge angles of 16 degrees per side. The factory edge is reasonably well applied -- and is certainly better than the crappy factory edges that most German knives come with -- but isn't anything special. You can do much better with your Edge Pro. If you have the stone upgrades, taking the edge up through the 600 stone will put a fine polish on the knife that will leave the factory edge in the dust.

The core is VG10, one of the best kitchen steels available. It's not as high tech as some of the new exotic supersteels, but it strikes a great balance between hardness, sharpenability and stain resistance. I'd have to check my notes from my interview with the Shun designer to be sure, but I believe Kai/Kershaw/Shun hardens their kitchen knives to 58-59Rc. You can take the edge down farther if you'd like. I've taken 60Rc VG10 down to 10 degrees per side without requiring undue maintenance, but I also sharpen my knives every couple of months to keep them at peak performance.

The factory edge should last approximately a year with light use, 6 months if you use the Shun as your main knife. These knives respond well to steeling with a high grit ceramic rod like this one from Epicurean Edge. Just touch it up lightly once a week or so. That will extend the life of the edge and keep the knife cutting well. Check the eG Sharpening Tutorial for proper steeling technique. DO NOT, under any circumstances, allow a standard grooved steel anywhere near the edge.

One thing to note: the suminagashi (faux Damascus) cladding on the outside is very soft. When you use the Edge Pro, tape the sides of the blade with blue painter's tape to keep the grit and swarf from scratching up the pattern.

If you can wait until May, a whole new world of sharpening techniques will be revealed .

Take care,

Chad

[Chris Amirault]

Is everyone noticing that this particular object brings with it deep consumerist desires?

Shopping list thus far:

• EdgePro stone upgrades
  
• strop
  
• high grit ceramic rod
  
• shrine
  
• kitchen remodel for shrine placement, lighting, and climate control
  

Chad, 16 degrees per side means no double bevel and no Japanese edge, yes?

[Chad]

Is everyone noticing that this particular object brings with it deep consumerist desires?

Shopping list thus far:

• EdgePro stone upgrades
  
• strop
  
• high grit ceramic rod
  
• shrine
  
• kitchen remodel for shrine placement, lighting, and climate control
  

Chad, 16 degrees per side means no double bevel and no Japanese edge, yes?

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Oh, c'mon. You were looking for an excuse to buy more Edge Pro stones anyway. Admit it!

Actually, what you have will work fine for the time being. The 320EF stone is about the equivalent of a 1200 grit Japanese water stone, so it'll still be a little finer than the factory edge. If you want to splurge, the new 800 grit UF stone is $14 and will last the rest of your life.

The high grit ceramic rod is a good addition to your knife block/kit. It'll do a much better job than any grooved steel available (and do a lot less damage to your edges). Ben Dale has them on the Edge Pro website if you want to consolidate your purchases.

As for edge bevels, the 16-degree-per-side factory bevel isn't bad, and it's simple to match on your Edge Pro. If you feel like doing a compound bevel, go for it. The knife can easily handle a 10/15 compound edge if you feel like putting one on it. (For those who haven't read the sharpening tutorial, that is a 10 degree back bevel and a 15 degree primary edge on each side). And, no, the Shun's are not chisel ground like traditional Japanese knives. They have a symmetrical bevel just like the European style knives everybody is used to.

Shrine and mood lighting? Pfff! My knives rise from the center of my cutting board in a swirl of dry ice smoke, just like the secret ingredient on Iron Chef. Top that! Actually, I believe the Ken Onion comes with the wooden presentation stand, doesn't it?

Take care,

Chad

[Human Bean]

I sharpen my Shuns at approximately the angle they came with (I think 15 degrees, and think the green mark on the Edge Pro) except for my paring knife, where I have a steeper angle.

Finding the factory angle is easy with the Edge Pro; there is/was a tip on the Edge Pro website, and I'd be surprised if Chad didn't include it somewhere in his tutorial:

Take a Sharpie pen and ink at least a few inches of the edge. Setup the Edge Pro with a medium stone at approximately the angle you think the edge might be (let's say the green mark.) Give the inked edge of the knife a few light-to-medium strokes, then examine where the ink has been removed. If the tip of the edge is mostly clean, your angle is too high; conversely if the back of the edge is clean, the angle is too low. Take a reasonably close look at the grind of the factory edge and where your sharpening is having an effect; it may take a few tries before you see that you've matched the original edge, but it will be very easy with just a bit of practice. When you're done, you can remove the excess Sharpie ink with rubbing alcohol (or maybe vodka if you're feeling extravagant.)

Once you've found the perfect angle, write it on the instruction manual or other handy piece of paper that stays with the sharpener, and you can go right to that setting next time. I have several knife setting written on my manual; I'd never remember them otherwise, but just a glance I know that Shun = green, Benchmade = yellow, parer = red (whatever.)

[Abra]

This discussion is great. I did buy the waterstone when I got the knife, but then it stayed sharp, even though it's my main knife, and I so didn't learn to use the stone. Thus I didn't pack it to France with me, and now really don't want to buy another. Hmmm, what to do? It seems unlikely to stay sharp for another year without some attention.

Personally I love the wooden stand/shrine because the edge never touches anything that could dull it, and because the knife is a thing of beauty and I like to look at it. Sure, it's a tool, but it's the prettiest tool I own and I like to see it.

The grip thing is very individual - it fits my hand like it was custom made for me, but I've had several friends pick it up and not feel comfortable with it. I have really huge hands, not just for a woman, but bigger than many/most guys' hands.

Edited September 13, 2007 by Abra (log)

[Chris Amirault]

I have big hands, too, and find the grip on that Shun perfect for me.

Does anyone keep their Shun knives on a magnetic strip?