All About Pasta

[Jason Perlow]

Bucatini is one of my favorite pasta shapes. I love the hole going thru the middle, it gives it such a cool texture and a nice springyness. Holds up great to heavy sauces like ragú.

[GG Mora]

Hmmm. Sorry to harsh your buzz, but that looks like something else entirely. Must be the soft, pinky, color, but it has a distinctly entrail-y feel to it.

[Craig Camp]

Hmmm. Sorry to harsh your buzz, but that looks like something else entirely. Must be the soft, pinky, color, but it has a distinctly entrail-y feel to it.

...and what would be wrong with entrails?

[Alberts]

Hmmm. Sorry to harsh your buzz, but that looks like something else entirely. Must be the soft, pinky, color, but it has a distinctly entrail-y feel to it.

Okay, I admit it, my wife had the same response when she saw it...until she tried it. Perhaps it is something about food with a pink tint.

Regarding the bucatini, I also love it, not just as all'amatriciana. It is sort of macaroni, sort of not. I am amazed how Italians have such a feeling for matching pasta with sauce, a practice that we Americans (maybe just I) tend to poo-poo.

Regarding Trattoria dall' Amelia, I have never been. But this was our first time in Verona, and we found a number of great restaurants there and in the Veneto in general.

By the way, what have been other's response when they take pictures of their meal. I like to do it to remember it by, just as much as great scenery. Other than being puzzled, the staff has always been okay with it.

[albiston]

Regarding the bucatini, I also love it, not just as all'amatriciana. It is sort of macaroni, sort of not. I am amazed how Italians have such a feeling for matching pasta with sauce, a practice that we Americans (maybe just I) tend to poo-poo.

Alberts,

not only Americans. My German wife and quite a few friends, both when I was living in the UK and now in here in Germany, make jokes about the many pasta shapes we Italians use.

I can't get anyone to understand why I crave for tubetti, a small cylindrical pasta shape, to make pasta e patate and pasta e piselli (potato pasta and pea pasta, two Neapolitan home-cooking classics). It's no use trying other shapes, the taste just isn't the same.

There's many reasons for our pasta shape madness, many historical, but others merely gastronomical. Some pasta shapes just work better with certain sauces. A great description of the kinds of pasta with matching sauces is in Jeanne Carola Francesconi's "La Cucina Napoletana" (Newton Compton). Too bad it's been only published in Italian because it's IMO one of the best regional Italian cook-books I've come across.

[Carlovski]

Interesting to see that even the italians fall for the big plate and pointless parsley scattering trap as well.

[slkinsey]

I'm not wondering what brand you tend to use the most because it's reasonably priced and available in your neighborhood, etc. I'm talking about the brand of dry pasta you like more than any other.

Everyone I know, even those who aren't all that wild about pasta, can immediately taste the difference between industrial dry pasta and artisinal dry pasta. I also find it's true that many pasta dishes that would be uninteresting with industrial dry pasta (e.g., penne in bianco) are wonderful with artisinal dry pasta.

So... my favorites are Setaro and Rustichella d'Abruzzo.

I also like Latini, and I always have a soft spot for something from Le Marche. But I have to admit that I have some trouble with their strand pasta. Latini short/tubular pasta always cooks just right for me. But Latini long/strand pasta seems to take forever to become tender, and often ends up gummy and overly al dente at the same time.

What are your favorites, and why? Are there any I'm missing that I should be sure to check out?

[hathor]

Anything but Latini.

I had a long conversation with an Italian friend who actually insisted that the gummy texture you describe, was the intended texture. Lovely packaging, but I think I might prefer to eat the packaging than the strand pasta.

[Marco_Polo]

I'm probably just plebian in my tastes, but I have never gotten on too well with some of the artisan paste that I've tried: Martelli, Latini, Rustichella d'Abruzzo to name but a few. True, the artisan pasta, made by slower extrusion, has a rougher texture that holds a sugo well. But I too find the texture often goes rather gummy and starchy, even when still al dente or molto al dente. Clearly it's a matter of taste. And for my taste, I still love, yes, I admit it, I love industrial dried pasta, Barilla numero uno, Da Cecco numero due.

Some of the best artisan pasta we've enjoyed are handmade paste from Apulia such as orecchiete (industrial attempts at this delightful shape are horrendous, not least because being machine made and thus evenly shaped, the pasta stacks together when cooking and sticks into a mass of horrible stodge).

MP

[Suzanne F]

This might shock you, but in her new book, Marcella Says . . ., Santa Marcella says that for some dishes, factory-made pasta is the only way to go. And while I could be remembering wrong, she might even say that DeCecco is a good brand. Anyway, I know it's my favorite.

And you know what? Ronzoni has also been very highly rated in tests by Fine Cooking and the like.

(oops, there go my "gourmet" credentials, down the drain )

[slkinsey]

This might shock you, but in her new book, Marcella Says . . ., Santa Marcella says that for some dishes, factory-made pasta is the only way to go.

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All dry pasta is factory-made. What I think she's saying is that fresh pasta is not necessarily better than dry pasta, and on that point I agree. In "Essentials" she says, "the boxed, dry pasta one refers to as factory-made. . ." and also ". . .for many dishes, factory-made pasta is the better choice. . ."

What makes Latini factory-made pasta different from Ronzoni factory-made pasta is that the Ronzoni factory, process and ingredients are different from the Latini factory, process and ingredients.

And while I could be remembering wrong, she might even say that DeCecco is a good brand. Anyway, I know it's my favorite.

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De Cecco is, IMO, the best mass-production ("industrial") dry pasta -- so I totally agree with your tastes there. But also IMO, there is such a world of difference between De Cecco and e.g. Setaro that I'll never go back to De Cecco... not while I can get Setaro for five bucks a kilo. Seriously, go the Italian store at Chelsea Market some time and pick up a kilo of Setaro vermicelli. Serve it with some good butter and nothing else. I bet you'll never want to go back.

And you know what? Ronzoni has also been very highly rated in tests by Fine Cooking and the like.

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Yea, but compared to what? And who is doing the testing? I bet if it was you and me doing the testing, it might not rate so high.

[Jason Perlow]

So what's wrong with Barilla?

[BrianYarvin]

So what's wrong with Barilla?

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Jason:

Nothing is wrong with Barilla! In fact, it's quite good.

It's just that some of the more artisanal brands like Setaro do what Barilla does, but a bit better.

To me, Setaro has a great taste and a different sort of surface.

[Jason Perlow]

But also IMO, there is such a world of difference between De Cecco and e.g. Setaro that I'll never go back to De Cecco... not while I can get Setaro for five bucks a kilo.

Kinsey, you just proved to me beyond a reasonable doubt you are fucking insane. FIVE BUCKS A KILO? For DRIED PASTA? We're talking regular shapes and durum semolina mix, not special flavors and stuff? Are you nuts? I can get fresh pasta for less than that!

[Fat Guy]

My personal favorite, and I have to thank Wine Spectator's Sam Gugino for turning me on to it, is Benedetto Cavalieri. I agree that Setaro is excellent, but have to give the edge to Cavalieri.

To me there is no significant difference in flavor among the good mass-produced brands (and I would include Ronzoni on that list, along with of course De Cecco and Barilla) and the artisanal brands. If the artisanal producers are using a better class of wheat (Canadian super-wheat clone 49373 instead of clone 38503 or whatever) or a superior milling process (windmills and such), and I'm sure they are, I don't notice it on the palate. This is why, I think, the magazines like Cook's Illustrated tend to dismiss the notion of artisanal pasta: they're tasting the pastas plain, and plain pastas can be pretty similar.

The major differences that I've been able to detect, however, have to do not with flavor but with texture and the closely related attribute of absorbency.

As I understand it, dried pasta is extruded through dies. The mass-production facilities use teflon-coated dies and push the product through quickly so as to maximize production. The artisanal producers use copper dies and push slowly. This creates a rough-textured surface on the artisanal pasta that is rarely seen on mass-produced pasta. That texture affects the way the pasta interacts with sauce and other added ingredients: it not only helps the sauce cling, but if I'm not mistaken the porousness helps flavors to penetrate deeper within the pasta. I also believe that pasta made in the artisanal manner is easier to cook al dente -- it has a more forgiving window of opportunity, perhaps on account of its looser structure.

In terms of my own purchasing behavior, I have come to think that the surface texture of pasta is so far and away its most important attribute that I've started buying pasta by appearance and not necessarily by brand. Awhile back I was at Wegmans and they had a store brand of pasta that had a beautifully textured surface. It was right around the De Cecco price point, but it turned out to be great stuff.

All that being said, I'm always happy to eat De Cecco or even Ronzoni provided it is prepared with care and combined with good ingredients. I like the artisanal products but have never had the "I'll never go back!" reaction.

[Suzanne F]

All dry pasta is factory-made.  What I think she's saying is that fresh pasta is not necessarily better than dry pasta, and on that point I agree.  In "Essentials" she says, "the boxed, dry pasta one refers to as factory-made. . ." and also ". . .for many dishes, factory-made pasta is the better choice. . ."

What makes Latini factory-made pasta different from Ronzoni factory-made pasta is that the Ronzoni factory, process and ingredients are different from the Latini factory, process and ingredients.

De Cecco is, IMO, the best mass-production ("industrial") dry pasta -- so I totally agree with your tastes there.  But also IMO, there is such a world of difference between De Cecco and e.g. Setaro that I'll never go back to De Cecco... not while I can get Setaro for five bucks a kilo.  Seriously, go the Italian store at Chelsea Market some time and pick up a kilo of Setaro vermicelli.  Serve it with some good butter and nothing else.  I bet you'll never want to go back.

Yea, but compared to what?  And who is doing the testing?  I bet if it was you and me doing the testing, it might not rate so high.

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Sam: read the book. And then you will know exactly what she's saying. (I did already read it; in fact, I proofread the book and corrected some mistakes in it.)

Also, do other homework on the production methods, the wheat used (where it is grown, etc.), the brass dies used (or not), etc. etc. I have. And so I know what matters beyond price.

I have been to Buon Italia. I have bought pasta there. It's good. But it is easier for me to go to any local store and buy DeCecco, which I like just as well. And which cooks up perfectly every time with no guesswork. (Yes, I can read the directions as printed in Italian, IF they are even there.) BTW: have you ever looked at the expiration dates at Buon Italia? It is the Job Lot of Italian food. They still carry pasta for New Year's Eve 2000.

Who does the testing? People who make their living at dealing with food, not wannabes who are not food professionals but only think they know something. If the testing were you and me, we'd be at loggerheads, because I take a lot of other elements into consideration than you seem to. You know what? My tastebuds tell me that good enough is good enough for the money. You want to spend $5 per kilo? Fine. But it's only macaroni. I'd rather spend my money on things that make more of a difference. Like fresh produce, or meat and fish, or wine, or oil, or cheese.

[skrattypants]

rustichella d'abruzzo, hands down. the cavalieri cooks up too "starchy" for my taste.

[bushey]

Del Verde. My kids' original day care provider, who spent a couple of years living in Italy with her husband's family, recommended it to me about 16 years ago and it remains my favorite (albeit hard to find) mass-produced brand.

[slkinsey]

Kinsey, you just proved to me beyond a reasonable doubt you are fucking insane. FIVE BUCKS A KILO? For DRIED PASTA? We're talking regular shapes and durum semolina mix, not special flavors and stuff? Are you nuts? I can get fresh pasta for less than that!

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Dude, that's only $2.27 a pound. What's so expensive about that? It may seem expensive compared to 59 cent a pound Ronzoni, but the fact is that $2.27 a pound is still very inexpensive. I mean, you can feed 3-4 people on one pound of pasta. That's around 55 to 75 cents a person! If there is another primo ingredient that can be had this inexpensively, I don't know about it. Compared to, say, $2 a pound for red peppers, it's a bargain. And don't even get me started on what they're charging for fresh fava beans, etc.

Sam: read the book. And then you will know exactly what she's saying. (I did already read it; in fact, I proofread the book and corrected some mistakes in it.)

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Well, I can't read the book as yet, because it won't be published until early October. But I am, naturally, intimately familiar with the rest of her work to-date. In the books I have read, she has often referred to dry pasta as "factory made" and has often made the case for valuing dry/factory-made pasta equally with fresh/homemade pasta.

When I read, "this might shock you, but . . . Santa Marcella says that for some dishes, factory-made pasta is the only way to go" in a thread about dry pasta, I gathered you were interpreting Hazan as occasionally advocating industrial dry/factory-made pasta over artisanal dry/factory-made pasta. Otherwise, why would I be shocked, right? That I started a thread on favorite dry pasta brands strikes me as strong evidence of my fondness for dry pasta and the fact that I value it equally with fresh. But perhaps I misconstrued your post.

I'll be surprised if she changes from her historical practice in this new book, but you're certainly in a better position to know than I.

Also, do other homework on the production methods, the wheat used (where it is grown, etc.), the brass dies used (or not), etc. etc. I have. And so I know what matters beyond price.

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I'm not quite sure what you're suggesting. It's not rocket science to find out this information, and I have found that it's not that hard to visit a pastificio if you're in the neighborhood. For the record, when I wrote as to "what makes Latini factory-made pasta different from Ronzoni factory-made pasta" was never intended as an implied commentary on your knowledge in this area, which I'm sure is quite advanced.

If the testing were you and me, we'd be at loggerheads, because I take a lot of other elements into consideration than you seem to. You know what? My tastebuds tell me that good enough is good enough for the money. You want to spend $5 per kilo? Fine. But it's only macaroni. I'd rather spend my money on things that make more of a difference. Like fresh produce, or meat and fish, or wine, or oil, or cheese.

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What are the other elements you take into consideration? The only one I am not considering for the purposes of this thread is cost. Perhaps our difference of opinion is because for me there is no such thing as "just maccheroni." I don't think $5/kilo in NYC is an unreasonably high cost, and I don't find that it depletes the funds I have available for other quality foodstuffs such as produce, meat, fish, wine, etc. But, on the other hand... my cooking, culinary philosophy and everyday diet were largely formed in Italy. So I eat a lot of pasta, and it's important to me.

[divina]

Most Italians eat dry pasta twice a day.. DeCecco and Barilla probably being the most available.

At the Coop grocery store in Tuscany now.. we have a Tuscan Wheat Pasta that I adore!

To me Latini is starchy on the whole, I like the Senatore Cappelli a lot,

Pasta from Gragnano is great ( Setaro is made there) many producers have their pasta's made there and then private label it.

In Chianti there is a great producer Fabbri..

and of course the Calabrian pasta's are now some of the up and coming favorites..

the hard wheat pasta's,bronze dies and drying techniques differ so much.. it is like comparing apples and oranges at times.

My Italian best friend probably has about 10 types of pasta at anytime as she never knows what sauce she wants..and that is how she chooses the pasta she will use!

I do adore the flavor of Setaro pasta though, a favorite with Napolitano's!

and when we look at what we spend to eat out.. it amazes me when people complain about ingredient costs..

Even traditional balsamic vinegar is only a $1.00 per person cost!

100ml is about 100 portions $100 per bottle..Traditional only cost around 45-48 euro in Florence... great deal!

Edited September 24, 2004 by divina (log)

[JosephB]

Most Italians eat dry pasta twice a day..

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I don't buy that.

and when we look at what we spend to eat out.. it amazes me when people complain about ingredient costs..

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I feel the same way. And because we don't eat out a lot, I rarely hesitate to spend more on cooking materials.

By the way, I've become very fond of Setaro. And $2+ for quality pasta is not expensive.

[JosephB]

I have been to Buon Italia. I have bought pasta there. It's good. But it is easier for me to go to any local store and buy DeCecco, which I like just as well. And which cooks up perfectly every time with no guesswork. (Yes, I can read the directions as printed in Italian, IF they are even there.) BTW: have you ever looked at the expiration dates at Buon Italia? It is the Job Lot of Italian food. They still carry pasta for New Year's Eve 2000.

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I just looked at my Setaro collection from Buon Italia. The expiration dates go out to 2007. Indeed, I've gotten nothing but high quality, fresh products from Buon Italia, including coffee, oils, cured meats, cheeses, and other dry goods. Are you prepared to substantiate your statement? I think that would be wise.

[Jason Perlow]

Dude, that's only $2.27 a pound.  What's so expensive about that?  It may seem expensive compared to 59 cent a pound Ronzoni, but the fact is that $2.27 a pound is still very inexpensive.  I mean, you can feed 3-4 people on one pound of pasta.  That's around 55 to 75 cents a person!  If there is another primo ingredient that can be had this inexpensively, I don't know about it.  Compared to, say, $2 a pound for red peppers, it's a bargain.  And don't even get me started on what they're charging for fresh fava beans, etc.

Perhaps I am overracting or am just feeling the pinch from not being able to bill Wall Street clients $100 an hour and up for consulting services anymore, however we eat a lot of pasta around this house, and we frequently buy like 4 1lb boxes of Barilla for $5 when it is onsale at Shop Rite (or is it 5 for $4?). If I am going to spend that kind of dough on pasta, I'm going to go the Bronx and get fresh stuff from Borgatti or I am going to go for some of that Tagliatelle Nero squid ink stuff for a special blow out seafood pasta meal. I just don't see the value in plain dried pasta that costs more than twice the price of Barilla, which is already pretty damn good.

That being said, bring me over some Setaro next time and maybe after trying it I will think otherwise.

[Suzanne F]

I just looked at my Setaro collection from Buon Italia.  The expiration dates go out to 2007.  Indeed, I've gotten nothing but high quality, fresh products from Buon Italia, including coffee, oils, cured meats, cheeses, and other dry goods.  Are you prepared to substantiate your statement?  I think that would be wise.

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Please pick something more substantial to fight over. I did not say that your mother wears Army boots.

I too have gotten high quality foods from them, otherwise I would not shop there. But the last time I was there, some months ago, they did in fact still have pasta in the shape of "2000." Hey, dried pasta can last for eons. And some of the canned goods -- including the coffees -- are perilously close to the expiry. But so what? Again, I said nothing to insult your ethnicity, or anything else, for that matter.

[russ parsons]

kids! kids! if y ou can't play nice you're going to have to go to your rooms.

seriously, one of the things that i find interesting about the dried pasta tastings most other pubs have done (see related thread on pamela's board), is that they taste the pasta by itself. this seems to me to be a very american way of doing it--focusing on one ingredient without regard for the context in which you'd normally use it. to repeat from the other thread: taste a great pasta with a sauce, and it makes the sauce taste better. that's why i don't think $2 a pound for a good pasta is a needless splurge (look at the per-dish cost, rather than the per-ingredient cost). on the other hand, if you have actually tried them side-by-side and didn't notice a difference, what the heck?