Cellars & Chambers for Curing and Aging

[cpl55]

Hi, Chris -

Thank you so much for your response, I really appreciate it. It's very good to know that the higher humidity does not pose undue risk.

I'll keep you posted on how it turns out!

Cheers,

Christina

[dougal]

... Another humidity question for you: I made a batch of Tuscan salami from Ruhlman/Polcyn's book on Sunday, and when I put the meeat in, the humidity spiked to the high 80s. (I am using a Vinotemp wine fridge like yours, only smaller.) IT has stayed in the high 80s (This is teh third day the salami has been in the chamber.) Before I put the meat in, a pan of water with some salt was holding a steady 70% humidity.

So, what would you recommend to try to drop the humidity? I greatly appreciate any suggestions...

I'm unfamiliar with your exact fridge, but hopefully this guidance will be helpful.

The smaller the chamber in proportion to the amount of meat, the more extreme will be the humidity problems.

Drying the sausage means removing moisture from the chamber somehow.

If you have put in three or four pounds of sausages, you have about a pound of water to get rid of.

Generally, wine coolers aren't designed to remove much moisture.

Ordinary fridges typically have a gutter that collects condensation dripping from the cooling plate, and a tube that takes the condensate outside to evaporate into the room.

That's rare in *wine* fridges.

Opening the fridge door will 'change the air' and drop the humidity somewhat for a little while.

So opening the door every few hours (particularly at the beginning) has to be good if its the only way of getting moisture out of the box.

Mop up and remove any condensation. Its the quickest way of getting water out of the chamber!

In an ordinary fridge, adding a little heat makes the fridge work harder, so the cooling plates collect more condensation (being colder more of the time).

If you can remove that condensation from the chamber, you are dehumidifying.

However one needs to be prudent as to exactly HOW one heats the fridge ... you know, electricity and water, together, not good...

One fairly safe possibility is to use the fridge's own light, by 'modifying' its switch so it thinks the door is open, when its actually closed. The light being on produces about 15 watts of heat (the light shouldn't damage the meat), and the heat makes the chiller work harder... But you want to be able to turn off your dehumidifier, so any "modification" needs to be reversible!

Salt. "A pan of water with some salt" is the wrong approach to DEhumidifying. (But, later, its a good way of getting the humidity UP towards the seventies.)

To use salt to DEhumidify, you need a dish of salt with some water - the other way round! Wet salt will DEhumidify (slightly), but its not fast, not least because because not much air contacts the salt. A large surface area of salt (a big but shallow dish) and air moving over the salt (ex-computer fan?) will help, but you are asking it to collect quite a lot of water, and as it takes in water, you'll have to add more salt to keep it as "wet salt" rather than "brine". You are trying to make brine from the moisture in the air. Like a pound of new brine (from air moisture) out of three or four pounds of sausage .... that's why removing any condensation is so helpful - its an easier, quicker way out of the chamber.

The specific problem associated with excess humidity is indeed mould - "bad moulds".

But these things don't like an acid environment.

Hence, the common treatment of washing the sausage surface with vinegar or a vinegar/mater mix, either to remove early traces of bad moulds or pre-emptively to discourage their arrival. A plastic hand sprayer (like a gardener's tomato mister) is a good tool for this job. (You may be able to reuse a spray bottle from your recycling bin, just make sure there's nothing perfumed, inedible or nasty lurking within!)

Edited October 8, 2010 by dougal (log)

[cpl55]

Dougal, thank you for your input, that is very helpful info. I put in salt with a bit of water, and the humidity is now down to 86.

And I know that mold has been an oft-discussed topic, and I'm not going to panic about it after reading Chris and Chris' Pork Store discoveries... but I am starting to see some spots of white, slightly-fuzzy spots appear on the surface of my salami. Should I wipe them down with vinegar, or let it ride?

Thank you for your thoughts!

[Chris Hennes]

I've done both, but there were too many variables at work for me to accurately assess the differences. I found that wiping it down seemed to encourage the growth of the white powdering molds, so from a visual standpoint it's nicer that way.

ETA: That is, wiping it down with a vinegar/water solution (I probably diluted the vinegar to half its original strength).

Edited October 10, 2010 by Chris Hennes (log)

[dougal]

If the humidity is still that high, I wouldn't expect it to be good mould.

I'd suggest washing it off, with an acidified (vinegar) wash, rather than just waiting and watching.

And dry the sausages afterwards (paper kitchen towel?)

And try hard to get some moisture out of that chamber. (Even to the extent of drying the outside of the sausages after washing/wiping down.)

Have you got any frozen gel packs for cool boxes?

Anything like that, in your chamber, is going to quickly get covered in condensation.

If you put it in a metal dish (roasting tin? pie dish?) it should be even more effective... Once its gathered one load of condensation, towel it dry (and the dish), and return the cold pack to the chamber for another load. Repeat until bored or the gel pack isn't garnering much condensation (either because its warmed up a bit, or less likely so soon, the humidity has come right down.) Then return the cold pack to the freezer so that its chilled ready for another campaign tomorrow - because the humidity will bounce right back up with those 'wet' sausages in there...

You are looking to eventually remove about a quarter of the sausage weight as moisture. And you've got to get it completely out of your chamber.

Quite a lot of it needs to be out quite quickly ...

Edited October 10, 2010 by dougal (log)

[cpl55]

Thanks, Dougal and Chris, for all of your helpful information, I really appreciate it!

My 12-bottle wine cooler was not large enough (thanks, Dougal, for pointing out the size of chamber-to-meat issue, which hadn't occurred to me). As a result, because I am completely hooked on charcuterie, I picked up a Vinotemp VT-28TEDS. The humidity dropped rapidly once I put the salami in there, and everything about it is much better than trying to work with the much smaller 12-bottle model.

Chris, about how many pounds of meat are you able to put in there at one time without exceeding the space-to-meat "ratio" for acceptable humidity?

Christina

[OliverB]

just wondering, can't you use those silica packets to get moisture down? They are to be found in foot packages, so I'd guess it's perfectly safe. And you can dry them out and reuse them. I think you can even buy them online. I've never tried it, too many things to deal with to also go into curing chambers right now, but I'd probably try that.

[Chris Hennes]

Christina, the most I've tried is about ten pounds, and that was in pretty wide casings (so less surface area trying to lose moisture all at once). Of course, ten pounds is a LOT of salume! And OliverB, I think you are right on all counts, I've heard of people doing so. Haven't really needed to try it myself yet, though.

[dougal]

just wondering, can't you use those silica packets to get moisture down? ...

... the most I've tried is about ten pounds... Of course, ten pounds is a LOT of salume! ...

Its a matter of scale, I believe.

At about 75% humidity, silica gel will take up about 30% of its weight of water.

http://www.sorbentsystems.com/desiccants_charts.html#figure2

You want to lose something like 30% of the sausage weight as water.

Put those two things together, and it looks like its roughly pound for pound.

You'd need a pound of silica gel to take up the water from a pound of sausages.

One whole pound of dry silica gel is rather a lot.

But a pound of wet salami isn't.

A matter of scale.

Of course, you could use half a pound twice (oven-drying it between campaigns), or a tenth of a pound ten times ... but that's a lot silica gel, a lot of your time and a lot of energy used by the oven, all to remove the moisture from just one pound of sausage ...

Venting the chamber to allow a small amount of exchange of air with a dryer exterior sounds easier.

Collecting and removing the condensation provoked by localised cooling is the simple practical method.

And if you are spending real money on a wine fridge, the cost of a low-voltage mini (Peltier effect chilling) dehumidifier (as mentioned upthread) is probably not going to be too much of a concern.

Edited October 19, 2010 by dougal (log)

[nickrey]

Living in a humid climate, containers of a hygroscopic compound for use in damp cupboards are relatively easy and cheap to obtain. One example is damprid, which is anhydrous calcium chloride.

Has anyone tried this compound to dehumidify their chambers?

[Landlockt]

First thanks for all the info.

My mid-range plan is to convert a fridge to a curing box, but for now I am going to use a room in our basement.

Here is the current environment:

1) RH around 80% and it will remain that way until late spring/summer.

2) Typical temperature is 60-65 if we keep the door closed, 65-70 if left open to den.

3) The room in question is a washroom/storage room.

He are my current plans:

1) I found this humidifier/dehumidifier on Amazon for about $165.

Amazon

My plan was to then use it in the fridge when I got to that stage. I thought I was really onto something until I saw the reviews.

So now I am thinking I need to just buy a dehumidifier instead.

2) I can crack a window in the room and easily get down 10-20 degrees.

3) I am a little concerned that because it is a washroom/storage room/utility room (that's where our water heater and water softener as well) that there may be some off odors that may affect the final flavor.

My goal is to be able to use any equipment I buy to be able to use when I convert to a fridge curing chamber.

I am picking up a pork belly and two pieces of jowl tomorrow from a local producer so I have about a week to get it resolved.

This will be my first go at charcuterie. I use this forum and Charcuterie as my primary resources for info. Any hints and tips are welcome. Thanks

[cpl55]

Hi again, everyone-

Okay, so now I have my VT-28TEDS, with 4.5 pounds of Bresaola hanging in it. I mentioned earlier in the thread that I was having trouble with high humidity (steady in the mid-80s, mostly.) As Dougal suggested, I got the dehumidifier from ACE. That dropped it down promptly. Only trouble is, it drops the humidity a little too much, to the low 60s. If I turn it off, the humidity jumps to 85% within minutes, when I turn it on, back to the low 60s. Sooooo... anything I can do to help stabilize this?

(Through all of this, the bresaola seems to be hanging tough; it's forming nice white, smooth mold so far.)

Thanks so much for your help!

Christina

www.sleeplessfoodie.com

[vice]

To fine tune the humidity, you'll need a hygrostat in combo with the dehumidifier. jmolinari discusses a few options here.

[Chris Hennes]

Christina, you'll definitely want to use a controller on that dehumidifier, as discussed up-topic. Here's jmolinari's post:

ETA: Yeah, what vice said...

Edited October 27, 2010 by Chris Hennes (log)

[cpl55]

Ah, thanks for the quick responses, Chris and Vice.

So, just to confirm I've got this straight; I'll want to get this:

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/DAYTON-Dehumidifier-Control-1UHG2?Pid=search

and plug my dehumidifier into it, right?

thanks!

c

[vice]

Correct, with one caveat: If it's possible that you'll eventually scale up from the Vinotemp to a full-size fridge (the latter will need the humidity increased rather than decreased), it'd be cheaper in the long run to pony up now for a hygrostat with both humifidier and dehumidifier control (see jmolinari's blog post linked above). Just something to think about.

[dougal]

Ah, thanks for the quick responses, Chris and Vice.

So, just to confirm I've got this straight; I'll want to get this:

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/DAYTON-Dehumidifier-Control-1UHG2?Pid=search

and plug my dehumidifier into it, right?

thanks!

c

Can I be awkward?

I don't really like the idea of putting mains electricity connectors (like that plug-through hygrostat) INSIDE the fridge - where there may be dripping water, etc.

If that little dehumidifier is really the same as the UK product offering that it seems to be, then one of its advantages is that it works on 12v DC - and the mains transformer can be outside the fridge.

So, if you had a hygrostat inside the fridge that was just switching that 12v DC, that would be safer, wouldn't it?

And if you could find something like the Siemens QFA1001, it ought to be cheaper as well!

That model is an example of a simple mechanical hygrostat switch. Its not going to be super accurate, but it'll be plenty good enough.

It also has a changeover type switch - so it could control a humidifier OR a dehumidifier (you just connect it to different terminals).

An even simpler alternative is to control the dehumidifier by time rather than humidity.

If you can get simple (and cheap) timer switches *'expensive' UK example ($7)* then you can easily set it to run 15 minutes every hour, or two hours, or three hours ... whatever duty cycle you feel appropriate to your situation, based on the humidity measurement you are seeing.

FWIW, I wouldn't worry too much about the humidity being as low as a steady 60% with the dehumidifier running. There's a lot of sweating going on, and that's fine. The little machine is gathering it up at the same rate its sweating) if its a steady 60-ish. But when the humidity falls further, and quickly, then you need to do much less dehumidifying - and likely more controlling!

[cpl55]

Ah, thanks, Dougal. I actually had the same concern with putting the dehumidifier controller (along with all the electrical connections) inside the fridge. What I have done (and it seems to be working pretty well so far) is place the dehumidifier controller outside the fridge, and set it relative to the humidity in the room it's in... so that proportionately it manages to regulate the humidity INSIDE the fridge at the rate I desire. (Yah, made my head hurt trying to figure that out at first!) So far, so good... but it's good to know that the steady 60% isn't too much of a concern. (Would you worry at all with a bigger item like a bresaola, that the outside might dry out too quickly, or will 60% be enough to prevent that? (I have it in a collagen casing, incidentally.)

thanks!

Christina

[vice]

I don't really like the idea of putting mains electricity connectors (like that plug-through hygrostat) INSIDE the fridge - where there may be dripping water, etc.

Good points. Some hygrostat controllers (this one, for example) do have cords you can route outside the fridge much like the keg fridge thermostats many people use.

[ianeccleston]

Thanks all for the great discussion. I just got a 6-bottle Haier wine fridge on sale for Black Friday w/ free shipping. But based on the discussion, it sounds like the humidity issues will likely make this unusable for salumi curing. Bummer; I should have read the whole post prior to buying it instead of just looking at the pretty pictures!

Thanks!

Ian

[ianeccleston]

Update - Thank you Craigslist! $50 for a 52-bottle Haier wine refrigerator. Stoked.

Ian

[ianeccleston]

Has anyone else had a problem with the dehumidifier taking too much moisture out of the chamber? Although I have the Grainger dehumidifier control set quite high, my other hygrometer tends to show a 40-45% humidity if I leave the dehumidifier on. My salame came awfully close to getting "case hardening," and I ended up just turning the humidifier off for the rest of the cure.

Ian

[vice]

A couple thoughts:

1. Your chamber is on the small side, so the humidity swings are likely to be greater than with a full size fridge. Nothing you can really do about this one, short of finding a controller with a really tight tolerance.

2. The dehumidifier controller might be located in a high-humidity spot. Does your other hygrometer read high if it's placed right next to the controller? If so, either try to relocate the controller to a more representative location or add a small fan to even out the moisture.

[Will]

I have a humidor (non-cedar interior) used for storing puer tea, which really should have somewhat higher humidity than is normal in Southern California. It's custom built by a cigar humidor manufacturer. I keep it around 65-70% usually. The main thing that's a pain is that the humidifier wicks can get a little moldy, and have to be cleaned / changed frequently. The reservoir also has to be cleaned. You can see the humidifiers sort of at the bottom of the first photo, and the controller at the top of the second.

The outside is black walnut, with mahogany interiors. It did take a while for the wood smell to go away, even though mahogany isn't aromatic like cedar. It was made by Aristocrat Humidors

[click for larger image]

Edited January 14, 2011 by Will (log)

[ianeccleston]

The wine fridge worked out OK in the end - even though it's harder to maintain the humidity and temp. I'll let you know how the coppa turns out, but the salame rocks: