Cellars & Chambers for Curing and Aging

[Tsulli1]

Wouldn't a UV light kill mold growing on the outside of the salami as well?

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Good point. Perhaps it was just regular fluorescent lighting in the display case...

[jmolinari]

I clean out my chamber every few batches, i use windex or Fantastic and then let it air out for an hour with a big box fan blowing in it, and i've not had any "cross flavoring" problems.

[Chris Hennes]

Here's the setup I've got running right now: first, without the cover so you can see what's inside ---

In the bottom is a pan of saltwater with the salt heaped up over the level of the water. Theoretically this will keep the humidity at a steady 74%, though for the first little while with something added I expect the humidity to be much higher, since the salt can't absorb that much excess water. Despite being thermoelectric these refrigerators do have a fan and vent out the back, so the water does have someplace else to go. My house has considerably lower humidity, so I hope things equalize soon. Above the salt is a drip pan, and then a bunch of salt-cured pork jowl.

Here is how I keep the light out:

Just a pillowcase attached with some strong magnets (the stainless steel is non-magnetic, but in the corners the construction must involve some more magnetic stuff, because the neodymium magnets stick fine at the corners). I have it draped a bit so I can see the temperature readout, so it's not keeping out 100% of the light, but it's pretty dark in there, I think. And I can easily remove the cover to check on the meat without disturbing it. I've got my fingers crossed!

[tim]

Chris,

Those are very nice looking fridges. What is the interior temperature?

They look perfect for aging beef.

Tim

[Chris Hennes]

Those are very nice looking fridges.  What is the interior temperature?

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It fluctuates between 55 and 60 degrees F, which is the lowest you can set it. I've double-checked this with a real thermometer and the built-in sensor appears to be properly calibrated, though I have read some complaints online about others having trouble (I think mostly people who wanted to store white wine at serving temperature and were disappointed).

[tim]

Those are very nice looking fridges.  What is the interior temperature?

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It fluctuates between 55 and 60 degrees F, which is the lowest you can set it.

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Chris,

That sounds like a great temperature for brewing lager BUT much too warm for aging beef.

Tim

[Chris Hennes]

Those are very nice looking fridges.  What is the interior temperature?

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It fluctuates between 55 and 60 degrees F, which is the lowest you can set it.

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Chris,

That sounds like a great temperature for brewing lager BUT much too warm for aging beef.

Tim

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It's about perfect for both charcuterie and cheese, however . The humidity is going to be the major issue, so I'll keep an eye on things and see how it goes...

[JaneMC]

I have a question: why a wine cooler over a small fridge? I'm wanting to do more curing and really need something. I'm looking forward to your thoughts.

Thank You.

Jane

[Chris Hennes]

I have a question: why a wine cooler over a small fridge? I'm wanting to do more curing and really need something. I'm looking forward to your thoughts.

Thank You.

Jane

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A refrigerator is designed to keep food cold: they generally can't be set above about 40 F without modification. A wine cooler is designed to keep things in the 55-60 range, which is where I wanted to be for charcuterie. A wine cooler is, in general, going to be quieter and more efficient, since you are using it in the temperature range for which it was designed. I am using a thermoelectric-type wine cooler, which has very few moving parts (just the fans, which are easy to replace if they die/get too loud). It is louder than I would like, but still quieter than my refrigerator. I also like having the glass door on the wine cooler: it lets me check on things without opening the door and messing with the temperature/humidity. Just remember to cover the door when you aren't checking on things, since light is an enemy of fat.

[JaneMC]

Chris,

Thank you for the information. Now I know why and what to look for. How is yours doing? Is the water and salt working pretty good for the himidty? I can't wait to get one....which I will. I just bought (will be here today or tomorrow) the meat grinder. Can't wait to play with that, I was using the KA and it finally broke (the grinder, big crack in it).

Jane

[Chris Hennes]

Thank you for the information. Now I know why and what to look for. How is yours doing? Is the water and salt working pretty good for the himidty?

So far, so good... the first batch of guanciale will be ready next week, I think.

[Chris Amirault]

What's the humidity been like in there, Chris?

[Chris Hennes]

What's the humidity been like in there, Chris?

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Using the very scientific method of noting that I do not need to replace the water in the bottom very often, but do so about once every 2-3 weeks, I would say, OK. I know, I know, I need a hygrometer, but I don't have one yet. I know that the air circulation is quite good due to the fans frequent running, and I'm hoping it's not too good. We shall see...

[dougal]

I have a question: why a wine cooler over a small fridge? I'm wanting to do more curing and really need something. ...

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A refrigerator is designed to keep food cold: they generally can't be set above about 40 F without modification. A wine cooler is designed to keep things in the 55-60 range, which is where I wanted to be for charcuterie. A wine cooler is, in general, going to be quieter and more efficient, since you are using it in the temperature range for which it was designed. ... I also like having the glass door on the wine cooler: it lets me check on things without opening the door and messing with the temperature/humidity. Just remember to cover the door when you aren't checking on things, since light is an enemy of fat.

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A big second-hand fridge (or even freezer) can be much cheaper than a new wine cooler!

Not as smart, but potentially more functional.

As Chris says, you can't normally wind a fridge's standard thermostat high enough for charcuterie temperatures.

But the "modification" required can be really simple.

Instead of plugging the fridge (or freezer) into the wall socket, plug it into a 'control box', and plug the control box into the wall socket. Put the controller's temperature probe inside the fridge, turn its own thermostat to coldest and adjust the external controller to give whatever temperature you want.

Here's a random example of the sort of thing I'm referring to -

http://cgi.ebay.com/Refrigerator-or-Freeze...Z380060632061QQ

That one is $65 and works on US 110v.

Using this sort of thing means that your modification can also be removed in seconds, leaves no trace and avoids installing DIY mains electrical switching inside the damp fridge chamber. So - effective, relatively inexpensive, robust, safe - and no commitment -- so you can instantly move it to a bigger fridge as you get more ambitious!

I have a 240v controller (see my earlier posts in this thread) which is generally sold for maintaining the temperature of an aquarium! Its not really a super accurate control (doesn't seem needed - I think more thermal mass would help) but its probably more stable than the fridge's own thermostat and easily can be temporarily used for other jobs like running a bread proofing box heater (a lamp!) Nicely, it has totally independent heat and cool outputs (not just a single changeover), and a time delay to protect the fridge against excessively fast off/on switching.

I don't think there's any need for a PID controller for this job - unlike sous vide cooking or espresso for fussy enthusiasts. But it could be done!

Specifically regarding "efficiency", I think the thicker insulation on a refrigerator would act to reduce the energy requirement. While its actively cooling, I don't think the temperature of the 'cold element' is very different to normal fridge operation. Located in a cool environment, it doesn't seem to run very much of the time. (Must put a clock on it...)

[Chris Hennes]

As a brief update, following some mockery from Chris A. I finally purchased a hygrometer for the chamber, so I can now tell you that the humidity with nothing in there but the pan of salt and water stays at a quite steady 65%. This is a bit lower than I was expecting: of course once I put a bunch of wet meat in there I would expect it to jump up, but clearly the circulation is a little too good for the baseline chamber, exchanging too much outside air. I can think of a couple ways to increase the humidity should it become necessary, but I am going to wait and see what happens when I put some sausage in there first.

Also, certainly everything Dougal says above is true: the main problem I had with the "old fridge" school of thought is that I have neither a basement nor the garage space necessary, and I have to keep my chamber in the kitchen. I needed an appliance that a) was compact and b) was attractive. I'm not sure my current "pillowcase-over-the-window" solution is that attractive, but I'm working on that .

[Chris Hennes]

Here's the setup I've got running right now: first, without the cover so you can see what's inside ---

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For reference, that is the Vinotemp VT-28TEDS 28 Bottle Thermoelectric Wine Cooler. They advertise it as being "virtually silent," which is a damned lie, but it's quieter than a full-sized fridge, so if you put it in your kitchen it's no big deal. I got mine on sale at Target, but Amazon.com has them here as well.

[-pk-]

I am trying to get a charcuterie program going at our restaurant and we're having a bit of trouble setting up a suitable drying chamber. I'm hoping the experience of some of the contributers here might shed some light on a road block we're hitting.

We have an old upright two-door freezer modified to run at higher temperatures. It holds temperature just fine, but after the cooler unit runs, the humidiy inside the unit spikes to near 100%. It takes a half hour or so for it to settle back down to a workable range that can be managed with a humidifier to hold at the desired point. Then, maybe ten minutes later, the cooler comes on again, and we have the same problem. I am assuming that with the humidity running far too high for most of the day, our salami/pancetta/etc. will not properly dry, and we'll run into problems with microbial infection and rot.

My guess would be that this is this a common issue with cooling units in which the condenser is located inside the box. Would this be an accurate assumption, or is there something we can have done to it to stop these humidity spikes?

With the layout of our restaurant, we don't have a closet or room that we can dedicate solely to this effort, so we really need to figure out how to set up something self-contained like a refrigerator. Would we be better off just purchasing a few used home refrigerators and using a temp./humidity controller plugged in between the fridge/humidifier and the outlet to maintain the right conditions?

I really appreciate any advice you folks can offer. It looks like you're doing some great quality charcuterie and I'd love to join the club.

[jmolinari]

I am trying to get a charcuterie program going at our restaurant and we're having a bit of trouble setting up a suitable drying chamber.  I'm hoping the experience of some of the contributers here might shed some light on a road block we're hitting.

We have an old upright two-door freezer modified to run at higher temperatures.  It holds temperature just fine, but after the cooler unit runs, the humidiy inside the unit spikes to near 100%.  It takes a half hour or so for it to settle back down to a workable range that can be managed with a humidifier to hold at the desired point.  Then, maybe ten minutes later, the cooler comes on again, and we have the same problem.  I am assuming that with the humidity running far too high for most of the day, our salami/pancetta/etc. will not properly dry, and we'll run into problems with microbial infection and rot.

My guess would be that this is this a common issue with cooling units in which the condenser is located inside the box.  Would this be an accurate assumption, or is there something we can have done to it to stop these humidity spikes?

With the layout of our restaurant, we don't have a closet or room that we can dedicate solely to this effort, so we really need to figure out how to set up something self-contained like a refrigerator.  Would we be better off just purchasing a few used home refrigerators and using a temp./humidity controller plugged in between the fridge/humidifier and the outlet to maintain the right conditions?

I really appreciate any advice you folks can offer.  It looks like you're doing some great quality charcuterie and I'd love to join the club.

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It sounds like a restaurant walk in works very differently than a home fridge. On a home fridge the turning on of the compressor to cool, leads to a drying of the air...opposite to what you're seeing.

Since i'm not familiar with teh layout of the cooling system in a walkin, i don't think i can help.

soryr,

[qrn]

I am trying to get a charcuterie program going at our restaurant and we're having a bit of trouble setting up a suitable drying chamber.  I'm hoping the experience of some of the contributers here might shed some light on a road block we're hitting.

We have an old upright two-door freezer modified to run at higher temperatures.  It holds temperature just fine, but after the cooler unit runs, the humidiy inside the unit spikes to near 100%.  It takes a half hour or so for it to settle back down to a workable range that can be managed with a humidifier to hold at the desired point.  Then, maybe ten minutes later, the cooler comes on again, and we have the same problem.  I am assuming that with the humidity running far too high for most of the day, our salami/pancetta/etc. will not properly dry, and we'll run into problems with microbial infection and rot.

My guess would be that this is this a common issue with cooling units in which the condenser is located inside the box.  Would this be an accurate assumption, or is there something we can have done to it to stop these humidity spikes?

With the layout of our restaurant, we don't have a closet or room that we can dedicate solely to this effort, so we really need to figure out how to set up something self-contained like a refrigerator.  Would we be better off just purchasing a few used home refrigerators and using a temp./humidity controller plugged in between the fridge/humidifier and the outlet to maintain the right conditions?

I really appreciate any advice you folks can offer.  It looks like you're doing some great quality charcuterie and I'd love to join the club.

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Early on in a drying cycle the product gives off much more moisture. Maybe if you crack the door for a few days the product will dry a bit and then you wont have the problem.just a WAG

Bud

[dougal]

...

We have an old upright two-door freezer modified to run at higher temperatures.  It holds temperature just fine, but after the cooler unit runs, the humidiy inside the unit spikes to near 100%.  It takes a half hour or so for it to settle back down to a workable range that can be managed with a humidifier to hold at the desired point.  Then, maybe ten minutes later, the cooler comes on again, and we have the same problem.  ....

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The things I wonder are: -

- where is the humidity sensor? (Close to a cold 'radiator'? The humidity there will be the highest, because its the coldest point.)

- how was the thing modified?

- what air movement do you have in the box?

- how do you get the moisture (water, humidity) out of your box?

You need a bit of air movement. If only to even out the humidity.

Old computer kit is a free source of small low-voltage (hence safe) fans...

Having the cold panel at the top (like most fridges), gets a little circulation going as the newly cooled air sinks... But you want to boost that (convective) air movement a little bit. Upright freezers often have 'cold shelves' which may help to cool the thing faster, BUT they don't encourage air movement, AND they inhibit hanging things...

These are reasons a fridge usually makes a better starting point than a freezer. Quite apart from any questions of design operating temperatures and the cooling machinery's operational efficiency.

Oh, and freezers are generally rather completely sealed.

You are going to put (wet) meat in this rather well sealed box. That'll raise the humidity of the air in there.

To drop the humidity (and dry the meat) you need to get rid of (or tie up) the water that you want to extract from the meat.

If your chiller is running hard enough, you'll lock up some as frost on the chiller pipes/panels. This is why normal freezers dry food.

Much more likely though, you'll just get a bit of condensation there. If you can get that condensation to drip into a gutter that drains outside the box, you'll remove the water/moisture/humidity. That's what usually happens in a fridge, and why it dries food.

But in a freezer, being run warm, you won't be freezing out any water and you won't have a drip gutter and external drain in a freezer - unless you fitted it!

Another way of controlling the humidity is with wet salt -- but you need to ensure you have enough salt to take up the moisture. See lots of previous posts.

Hence, overall, you need to have a plan for how the water gets out of the box (or at least locked up, out of the air, if its not being taken out of the box).

[genarog]

Chris,

How did the gunciales turn out?

What a great idea the Wine Cooler is. I have one I'm not using; I bought it to fill empty space I had reserved under the countertop when we redid our kitchen. It turned out to be too cool for red wine, and I rarely drink white. So I moved the wine back to the basement and I don't use the cooler any more. And I'm dying to make guanciale...

[RobertCollins]

Someone above was asking about mid east and European sourcing for controls. I would looking at these folks, W.W.Granger http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/static/in...ssatlantic.html That page will give the contacts for the rest of the world too.

They work out pretty easy to use here in N.A. . I think half of the equipment repaired or sold in the rural parts of the US are supplied by them or Johnstone supply. Probably the rest is from Sears or at least used to be.

[Tom Gengo]

I have discovered the perfect chamber for fermenting and curing- my oven. It is sterile- just heat it to 300 the night before production, it will stay at 80F for fermentation by simply propping the door open w/ a thermometer and just shut the door and it stays at 65F. I have a convection, so once a day I turn it on for about 20 sec's and then open and shut the door a couple of times. It circulates the air over the sausage! Must admit that this is the first time doing it this way, but all is going very well 3 weeks into the Spanish Chorizo and 1 week into the Soppressata.

To maintain humidity I use the utilitarian water in a pan w/ a pile of salt above the level of water.

Edited April 21, 2009 by Tom Gengo (log)

[vice]

I have discovered the perfect chamber for fermenting and curing- my oven.  It is sterile- just heat it to 300 the night before production, it will stay at 80F for fermentation by simply propping the door open w/ a thermometer and just shut the door and it stays at 65F.  I have a convection, so once a day I turn it on for about 20 sec's and then open and shut the door a couple of times.  It circulates the air over the sausage!  Must admit that this is the first time doing it this way, but all is going very well 3 weeks into the Spanish Chorizo and 1 week into the Soppressata.

To maintain humidity I use the utilitarian water in a pan w/ a pile of salt above the level of water.

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but what if you need to use the oven? 3-4 weeks is a long time.

[jmolinari]

I have discovered the perfect chamber for fermenting and curing- my oven.  It is sterile- just heat it to 300 the night before production, it will stay at 80F for fermentation by simply propping the door open w/ a thermometer and just shut the door and it stays at 65F.  I have a convection, so once a day I turn it on for about 20 sec's and then open and shut the door a couple of times.  It circulates the air over the sausage!  Must admit that this is the first time doing it this way, but all is going very well 3 weeks into the Spanish Chorizo and 1 week into the Soppressata.

To maintain humidity I use the utilitarian water in a pan w/ a pile of salt above the level of water.

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but what if you need to use the oven? 3-4 weeks is a long time.

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the oven would be for the fermentaion only i assume, which is 12-72 hrs.