Momofuku Ko (Part 1)

[ulterior epicure]

*headdesk*  I have a reservation for tomorrow at 6:40 and now my husband says he can't go ...

I think God just  doesn't want me to go to Ko.

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*headdesk* If your reservation were a day later, I'd gladly take the reservation off your hands.

[ginsbera]

if I hadn't gone yesterday I would be in. Now I am busy saving up for the next time I can go....which will likely be in the fall!

[Fat Guy]

Gael Greene also commented on the lameness of the service at ko:

The somber, expressionless Stepford cooks in front of us, spooning peanuts and vinaigrette over New Jersey shore-foraged scallops, dampen the mood, but not fatally.

[oakapple]

Gael Greene also commented on the lameness of the service at ko

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This is a common theme of multiple reviews that I've read—certainly all of the professional ones. Since Ko is its own invention, you could say it succeeds on its own terms. But once people start praising the service, you have to ask what they're comparing it to.

[Bobster]

I know, I can't believe I keep reading that! The servers themselves were courteous (I guess it helped that I got the wine pairing).

[oakapple]

I know, I can't believe I keep reading that!  The servers themselves were courteous (I guess it helped that I got the wine pairing).

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It all comes down to your point of comparison. Service at Ko is an order of magnitude below any four-star restaurant, and indeed, the majority of three-star restaurants. It is not so much a matter of being courteous, as simply the level of comfort they're able to provide in such a cramped space.

There's also the matter of the chefs, who also provide quite a bit of the service. They do a decent job of it, but it is clearly their second priority. They don't always have much patience with diners who want to have a dialog about the food.

None of this means that Ko is offering bad service; it isn't. But if you come in expecting the kind of experience normally expected of a restaurant that charges $85 a head, you most likely aren't going to get it.

[Fat Guy]

David Chang has broadcast his contempt for servers, for example "Servers are such greedy bastards." (From the New Yorker.) Yes, there have been so many examples of excellent service in the Momofuku organization. But I suspect that's despite the attitude of the organization's chief executive.

Near the logical extreme of the anti-server position is a setup as at ko, where the cooks serve the food. But that system only delivers great service if the cooks are skilled at service. To be skilled, they need to be trained. But if the governing principles of your organization include "Servers are such greedy bastards," how can you expect service to be a priority. You can't, which is why so many people are saying the food is world-class but the service is lame.

It's not a question of the chairs, the ambiance or anything else. The same people who were happy to overlook all that at Ssam Bar and Noodle Bar are saying the service at ko is weak. And, as Marc says, courteous"is the bare minimum -- it doesn't constitute good service. Basic competence is, again, the bare minimum. When your per-cover rate is similar to that at, say, Gramercy Tavern, you need to do a bit more.

[daisy17]

I wouldn't characterize the service on my visit as "bad," or not courteous, but it definitely affected my experience. The servers on the floor were quite sweet and accommodating, but my interactions with the guys on the line weren't very satisfying. I had questions about the food, which I was enthusiastic about, and wasn't able to digest what was told to me in very few words as the plate was put in front of me. My questions were along the lines of "so what is this dish exactly?" - I was not trying to have a lengthy discussion with anyone because clearly they're busy. But I didn't feel like my inquiries were met with any sort of positive response or appreciation, or anything other than a repetition of the same 4 word description I was initially given. And frankly, it detracted from my meal considerably. If I had been able to read a description of the food, I would have had fewer questions, and maybe wouldn't care about my interactions with the cooks. I wouldn't even say that my expectations have anything to do with the cost, and I don't expect this to be Gramercy Tavern. But I just had a fantastic lunch at Noodle Bar for $40, was able to talk to the guys on the line to understand what I was eating, and felt like they cared about how I felt about the food.

[Jesikka]

David Chang has broadcast his contempt for servers, for example "Servers are such greedy bastards." (From the New Yorker.) Yes, there have been so many examples of excellent service in the Momofuku organization. But I suspect that's despite the attitude of the organization's chief executive...

Near the logical extreme of the anti-server position is a setup as at ko, where the cooks serve the food. But that system only delivers great service if the cooks are skilled at service. To be skilled, they need to be trained. But if the governing principles of your organization include "Servers are such greedy bastards," how can you expect service to be a priority. You can't, which is why so many people are saying the food is world-class but the service is lame.

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I actually happen to agree with you that I'd love to have more interaction with the chefs at Ko, but I think you're wrong about how much David Chang values servers. The context of that quote was that it's not fair for servers to make more than chefs who work equally as hard, if not more so. While the Momofuku restaurants have definitely cultivated a particular kind of service (the service of busy but friendly people- almost diner type service except with much greater knowledge), I think it is evident that David Chang cares about service at least as much- if not more so- than other successful restauranteurs. You'd be hardpressed to find a better GM/Host than Cory, and as much as David Chang likes to play the "I just got lucky" card, I don't buy it. I completely believe that Chang cultivates that "slightly unhinged, grateful but afraid his success won't last, work hard/play hard" media persona. I don't know the man well personally, but I suspect that is a serious oversimplification (if not outright invention). If Chang didn't care about service he wouldn't have such good people doing it. You may not like the brand of service that Momofuku offers, but there's no question that they've managed to develop a large group of incredibly dedicated fans/regulars who would argue that they get excellent service at all of the restaurants. People like Cory (and many others at Momofuku) have lots of choice about who to work for. Something tells me working for Chang is a lot better than he makes it sound. It can't all be about pride in the cooking.

I suspect the Ko service will change over time as the chefs become more comfortable about talking while serving.

[oakapple]

While the Momofuku restaurants have definitely cultivated a particular kind of service (the service of busy but friendly people- almost diner type service except with much greater knowledge), I think it is evident that David Chang cares about service at least as much- if not more so- than other successful restauranteurs.

Which restauranteurs are you thinking of? If you compare Momofuku Ko to the other Chang restaurants, or to the average burrito bar, then it's awfully impressive. If you compare it to other restaurants in Ko's price range, then it is not.

You may not like the brand of service that Momofuku offers, but there's no question that they've managed to develop a large group of incredibly dedicated fans/regulars who would argue that they get excellent service at all of the restaurants.

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It isn't a question of "not liking it". The service is very good for what it is. But it's not comparable to what you get at, say, just about any Danny Meyer restaurant.

[Nathan]

service at all of the Momofukus is generally good if you're not a vegetarian, don't have fake food allergies, not anal, not a picky eater, accept that the chef is almost always right, etc.

I fall into the above category so I've always found service to be pretty good. people who commit one or more of the above sins are going to find the going a little rough sometimes. (and, on occasion, as with the Asimov incident, people who don't fit into those categories may still have things go awry.)

obviously, a few people manage to play on a different field altogether.

[Jesikka]

While the Momofuku restaurants have definitely cultivated a particular kind of service (the service of busy but friendly people- almost diner type service except with much greater knowledge), I think it is evident that David Chang cares about service at least as much- if not more so- than other successful restauranteurs.

Which restauranteurs are you thinking of? If you compare Momofuku Ko to the other Chang restaurants, or to the average burrito bar, then it's awfully impressive. If you compare it to other restaurants in Ko's price range, then it is not.

You may not like the brand of service that Momofuku offers, but there's no question that they've managed to develop a large group of incredibly dedicated fans/regulars who would argue that they get excellent service at all of the restaurants.

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It isn't a question of "not liking it". The service is very good for what it is. But it's not comparable to what you get at, say, just about any Danny Meyer restaurant.

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It's funny that you put it that way, because in my head I was thinking "the service is just as good as any restaurant except Danny Meyer restaurants." I think my thinking may be particular to eating a lot in the east and west villages, where I would say that the service is significantly better than Otto and Lupa, on par with Degustation, better than EU (although I don't know if that falls into successful restauranteurs or not), better than Prune, better than Bar Blanc, better than etc. Those are a pretty random list of restaurants that popped into my head, so I'm sure there is plenty to fault about it. I suppose that when you've eaten at a restaurant 75 times or more your ability to assess service becomes less about singular experiences, but I still think I have a decent sense of Momofuku service.

If we're talking ONLY about Ko, I tend to be more in agreement with you. My service at Ko has been fairly rudimentary, for the same reasons Daisy17 and others have suggested. However, I don't think this is an indication that David Chang doesn't care about service. I think he's attempting to have a sushi bar type service experience, but his chefs don't seem comfortable interacting as many of us would hope. Nonetheless, a different service model is not necessarily an inferior one and I don't think the problems with the service at Ko are due to any signaling from David Chang. Given that his servers are more well paid than most, wouldn't that be an indication that he cares more about service/servers?

[jimk]

a different service model is not necessarily an inferior one

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Exactly!

[Nathan]

I think my thinking may be particular to eating a lot in the east and west villages, where I would say that the service is significantly better than Otto and Lupa, on par with Degustation, better than EU (although I don't know if that falls into successful restauranteurs or not), better than Prune, better than Bar Blanc, better than etc. 

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I completely agree that just because it's a different service model doesn't make it inferior. I've been championing this new breed of restaurants for sometime now.

but...I don't think you can make these individual comparisons unless you're also being VIP'd at those restaurants. you're simply not in a position to do so. apples and oranges.

(my rough estimation is that the Momofukus do offer better service to the ordinary non-bar diner than Otto or Lupa or EU)

[daisy17]

Are we talking about just Ko or all the Momofukus now? Because I think that Ko offers a very different type of service. I have never had a disappointing service experience at either Ssam or Noodle Bar (and I am not VIPed at either).

[oakapple]

I think my thinking may be particular to eating a lot in the east and west villages, where I would say that the service is significantly better than Otto and Lupa, on par with Degustation, better than EU (although I don't know if that falls into successful restauranteurs or not), better than Prune, better than Bar Blanc, better than etc.

Those are all worthy examples, but they are all less expensive than Ko, and none of them are three-star restaurants. To be blunt, they are all pretty good, but not on the level Ko aspires to. In that sense, they're not really useful points of comparison.

If you compare Ko to the restaurants in its price range, its limitations become more apparent.

However, I don't think this is an indication that David Chang doesn't care about service.

We should probably take Chang's cryptic statements out of the equation.

Nonetheless, a different service model is not necessarily an inferior one...

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But it is not necessarily equivalent or better, either. Edited May 6, 2008 by oakapple (log)

[Nathan]

Are we talking about just Ko or all the Momofukus now?  Because I think that Ko offers a very different type of service.  I have never had a disappointing service experience at either Ssam or Noodle Bar (and I am not VIPed at either).

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um:

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showto...dpost&p=1564363

[daisy17]

Are we talking about just Ko or all the Momofukus now?  Because I think that Ko offers a very different type of service.  I have never had a disappointing service experience at either Ssam or Noodle Bar (and I am not VIPed at either).

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um:

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showto...dpost&p=1564363

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what does that mean?

[Nathan]

Are we talking about just Ko or all the Momofukus now?  Because I think that Ko offers a very different type of service.  I have never had a disappointing service experience at either Ssam or Noodle Bar (and I am not VIPed at either).

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um:

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showto...dpost&p=1564363

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what does that mean?

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You said that you're not VIP'd at either Ssam or Noodle Bar.

but in that other post you described getting extra dishes at Noodle Bar.

[daisy17]

Are we talking about just Ko or all the Momofukus now?  Because I think that Ko offers a very different type of service.  I have never had a disappointing service experience at either Ssam or Noodle Bar (and I am not VIPed at either).

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um:

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showto...dpost&p=1564363

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what does that mean?

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You said that you're not VIP'd at either Ssam or Noodle Bar.

but in that other post you described getting extra dishes at Noodle Bar.

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I didn't say I got extra dishes for free; I said they were off menu because they were specials. I paid for everything I ate and I am not VIPed at either place. I assure you that I am smart enough to not write contradictory posts within 2 hours.

[Nathan]

point retracted.

but a special is not normally referred to as an "off-menu" dish...at least on these threads...where others use it to refer to a free dish.

[Jesikka]

If you start compare Ko to the restaurants in its price range, its limitations become more apparent.

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I wasn't talking about Ko so much as Ssam and Noodlebar. As I said, I think the service at Ko suffers because the chefs are not comfortable talking much, so it fails to have sushi bar style service, which is what great service there would entail. I've never heard anyone say that service at the Yasuda sushi bar is inferior to other places in its price range. (I have heard complaints about table service there). But I think comparing Ssam to other restaurants in its price range makes little sense unless you compare it to other no-reservations restaurants of similar demand. I can't think of any others in that price range with that demand where you can't reserve.

[Nathan]

If you start compare Ko to the restaurants in its price range, its limitations become more apparent.

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I wasn't talking about Ko so much as Ssam and Noodlebar. As I said, I think the service at Ko suffers because the chefs are not comfortable talking much, so it fails to have sushi bar style service, which is what great service there would entail. I've never heard anyone say that service at the Yasuda sushi bar is inferior to other places in its price range. (I have heard complaints about table service there). But I think comparing Ssam to other restaurants in its price range makes little sense unless you compare it to other no-reservations restaurants of similar demand. I can't think of any others in that price range with that demand where you can't reserve.

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good point. Blaue Gans was the closest until they started taking reservations...(and they never reached that demand level)

[spaetzle_maker]

point retracted.

but a special is not normally referred to as an "off-menu" dish...at least on these threads...where others use it to refer to a free dish.

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Actually, at the Momofuku restaurants the explanation of the specials usually opens with the phrase "We have a few 'off menu' items this evening..."

[jimk]

Those are all worthy examples, but they are all less expensive than Ko, and none of them are three-star restaurants. To be blunt, they are all pretty good, but not on the level Ko aspires to. In that sense, they're not really useful points of comparison.

If you start compare Ko to the restaurants in its price range, its limitations become more apparent.

I don't think that other restaurants at Ko's price point are useful points of comparison either. Just because they share a price point they're good comparitors? What the other restaurants (Del Posto, Gramercy Tavern, Le Bernardin, etc.) aim to be and what Ko aims to be are so enormously different. All they have in common is a price point and the notion of "high end" ... that's not nearly enough in my book to treat them as apples and apples, especially when Chang's vision is clearly to not be an apple. If Per Se is an apple and Gramercy Tavern is a peach, then Ko is a durian.