Momofuku Ko (Part 1)

[Jesikka]

And, if you mean the use of pork fat at Babbo, I was under the impression that there's a lot more olive oil used than lard.  Please tell me (someone) that I'm right.

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I think there's a lot more butter used than either.

[Babiemindy]

made a res earlier this week just to see if i can get in, read all the press about how impossible and gruesome the process would be, i didn't exactly have high hopes i'd get it... after a couple of days, voila, I'll be there on Sunday. no definite dinner companion yet

went to ssam about a year ago, wasn't too impressed. it's a bit of a blur at the moment, but i remember the dishes were unique and unlike anything else they serve in nyc restaurants - which was refreshing. nothing particular stood out, and a dish or two were overly salted.

the recent topics on this thread about how everything is pork-related is putting me off a little - the only time i would choose pork from a menu is if the other other option is chicken... perhaps i'll think differently after this meal.

- if the treatment/ service from the chef and servers are sub-par compared to other 3-star restaurants, does that mean they do not deserve the typical 20% gratuity? (joking)

nevertheless, i'm looking forward a culinary adventure on Sunday

will report back.

[jimk]

made a res earlier this week just to see if i can get in, read all the press about how impossible and gruesome the process would be, i didn't exactly have high hopes i'd get it... after a couple of days, voila, I'll be there on Sunday.  no definite dinner companion yet 

went to ssam about a year ago, wasn't too impressed.  it's a bit of a blur at the moment, but i remember the dishes were unique and unlike anything else they serve in nyc restaurants - which was refreshing.  nothing particular stood out, and a dish or two were overly salted.

the recent topics on this thread about how everything is pork-related is putting me off a little - the only time i would choose pork from a menu is if the other other option is chicken... perhaps i'll think differently after this meal.

- if the treatment/ service from the chef and servers are sub-par compared to other 3-star restaurants, does that mean they do not deserve the typical 20% gratuity? (joking)

nevertheless, i'm looking forward a culinary adventure on Sunday 

will report back.

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I sort of envy you going into the place with managed expectations - I think you'll enjoy it a bit more than you expect to, but hope you post and let us know.

[Fat Guy]

if the treatment/ service from the chef and servers are sub-par compared to other 3-star restaurants, does that mean they do not deserve the typical 20% gratuity? (joking)

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People seem to be tipping normally, even though they get less and worse service at ko than at regular restaurants.

[BryanZ]

But in absolute terms they may be tipping less, simply due to the fact that the meal at Ko costs less than (what seem to be) meals of comparable quality.

[Fat Guy]

I wonder if the cover average is lower. Most people seem to be spending nearly as much on beverage as on food. I imagine that after tax and tip a lot of folks are leaving $180-200 per person at ko. Needless to say it all depends on which restaurants you compare it to, but in any event the $85 number is only one number in the matrix.

[oakapple]

But in absolute terms they may be tipping less, simply due to the fact that the meal at Ko costs less than (what seem to be) meals of comparable quality.

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I'm not so sure about that. The dinner menu at Gramercy Tavern is $82, compared to $85 at Ko. That menu is nominally only three courses, but after you count bread and amuses, you're getting food comparable to about six of Ko's "courses," and there's no doubt the service is in an entirely different zip code.

[BryanZ]

Indeed, and I think an even more apt fine-dining comparison is EMP. I still haven't been so I can't speak to the value from experience. It does seem, however, that at the end of the night (with beverages included) Ko may not be as great a deal as some might have initially espoused, it is still entirely reasonable. And if one places any value on exclusivity, then that takes up the value proposition significantly.

Edited May 22, 2008 by BryanZ (log)

[Jesikka]

But in absolute terms they may be tipping less, simply due to the fact that the meal at Ko costs less than (what seem to be) meals of comparable quality.

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I'm not so sure about that. The dinner menu at Gramercy Tavern is $82, compared to $85 at Ko. That menu is nominally only three courses, but after you count bread and amuses, you're getting food comparable to about six of Ko's "courses," and there's no doubt the service is in an entirely different zip code.

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I don't think you're actually getting that much food (equivalent of 6 courses), but I haven't been to GT for a tasting menu in quite awhile. You also get some amuses and additional dishes at Ko. Counting bread makes no sense to me unless you're comparing for some sort of fullness component. Either way, Bryan's contention was simply meals of similar quality, which seems right. I don't think there are many other examples of tasting menus of that quality in that price range.

[Fat Guy]

They serve six plates in Gramercy Tavern's three-course meal: 1-amuse; 2-appetizer, 3-entree, 4-dessert amuse, 5-dessert, 6-petits fours. Given that in ko discussions we're counting a single pork rind, that mini English muffin and the pre-dessert sorbet as courses, each of those Gramercy Tavern courses should count in the comparison -- not to mention the Gramercy Tavern appetizer, entree and dessert plates are full compositions with a number of components that, in a tasting menu format, might have been broken out (e.g., "Glazed Duck Breast & Leg Confit, Braised Fennel, Swiss Chard and Parsnips," "Rack of Pork & Braised Belly, Baby Turnips and Adirondack Blue Potatoes," "Sirloin & Braised Short Rib, Tuscan Bean Purée, Brussels Sprouts and Black Olives"). In addition, you get full bread service, which you don't get at ko (and which is an a la carte menu item at Ssam Bar), so I'd argue the number is seven ko-equivalent courses not including any soigne items that might get added. Plus you get service, chairs, a human to answer the phone, an actual pastry department, etc.

(edited to add menu examples)

[Nathan]

oh sure, the final check price at Ko is pretty similar to some other three-star establishments (there are a few that are considerably more)

[oakapple]

Indeed, and I think an even more apt fine-dining comparison is EMP.  I still haven't been so I can't speak to the value from experience.  It does seem, however, that at the end of the night (with beverages included) Ko may not be as great a deal as some might have initially espoused, it is still entirely reasonable.  And if one places any value on exclusivity, then that takes up the value proposition significantly.

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I don't place any value on exclusivity. Although Ko is a very good restaurant, it doesn't become better just because it's harder to get in. One may feel psychologically predisposed towards enjoying the experience, after one has expended so much effort to score a reservation.

I think Ko is fairly priced. It's neither a bargain nor a rip-off. It is in line with other restaurants of its caliber.

Counting bread makes no sense to me unless you're comparing for some sort of fullness component.

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You have to bear in mind that Ko does have a "bread service": it's the English muffin they serve at the very beginning. Edited May 23, 2008 by oakapple (log)

[SobaAddict70]

Having been to Ko, it is indeed very, very good (which is as it should be given that the rezzie system is insane).

That said, I think I would be better served were I to return five months down the road once the hoopla has died down. The rezzies won't be any easier to obtain but at least the psychological feeling of failure will have been alleviated. The extended absence also allows for radical changes in menu composition.

[BryanZ]

Indeed, and I think an even more apt fine-dining comparison is EMP.  I still haven't been so I can't speak to the value from experience.  It does seem, however, that at the end of the night (with beverages included) Ko may not be as great a deal as some might have initially espoused, it is still entirely reasonable.  And if one places any value on exclusivity, then that takes up the value proposition significantly.

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I don't place any value on exclusivity. Although Ko is a very good restaurant, it doesn't become better just because it's harder to get in. One may feel psychologically predisposed towards enjoying the experience, after one has expended so much effort to score a reservation.

Again, speaking rationally, I'm leery of placing value on exclusivity when, as a food and restaurant lover, all I should care about is the food and service.

But with that philosophical principle said, I do feel as though many people, possibly myself included, get added value from exclusivity. For instance, if one was served a meal with identical food and service at the same price in similarly outfitted dining rooms where one seats 100 and one seats 5, I think that most people would value the latter experience more highly. From Rao's to L'Astrance, I think there are many examples of restaurants that are considered "better" than they actually are because they are difficult to get into. Hell, even Babbo and Per Se fit into this mold if you ask me to rate the objectively.

And of course, this is to say nothing of what Nathan calls the "Urban Daddy/Daily Candy Crowd" who likely value exclusivity more than the food itself.

Edited May 23, 2008 by BryanZ (log)

[Fat Guy]

Of course exclusivity adds to the perceived value of a product. That's practically the definition of exclusivity.

[BryanZ]

But SHOULD that exclusivity affect our impressions and subsequent evaluations of a restaurant? Marc, I believe, is saying they shouldn't, or don't for him. I'm saying I wish they wouldn't but probably do.

[flinflon28]

You have to bear in mind that Ko does have a "bread service": it's the English muffin they serve at the very beginning.

I don't know if I can get behind that. I'd consider it more of a course or an amuse.

I guess the litmus test would be if you asked for a second English Muffin during your meal.

Knowing some of the attitude of the organization I wouldn't be surprised if they said no.

[oakapple]

But SHOULD that exclusivity affect our impressions and subsequent evaluations of a restaurant?  Marc, I believe, is saying they shouldn't, or don't for him.  I'm saying I wish they wouldn't but probably do.

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Oh, I agree that they probably do—and I'm as impressionable as anybody. I'm just saying that the objective reality, to the extent we can discern it, ought to have nothing to do with the difficulty of getting in.

You have to bear in mind that Ko does have a "bread service": it's the English muffin they serve at the very beginning.

I don't know if I can get behind that. I'd consider it more of a course or an amuse.

I guess the litmus test would be if you asked for a second English Muffin during your meal.

Knowing some of the attitude of the organization I wouldn't be surprised if they said no.

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They probably would say no, but it doesn't change the fact that Ko's English muffin is the "functional equivalent" of a bread service, in that it's a bread-like substance served at the same point in the meal as bread is typically served. They do it with a twist, because they do everything with a twist at Ko. And you don't get a choice, because nobody gets a choice at Ko. But I've no doubt at all that when Chang and his band of merry men were designing their menu, the English muffin was their answer to the traditional bread service. Edited May 23, 2008 by oakapple (log)

[SobaAddict70]

Having been to Ko, it is indeed very, very good (which is as it should be given that the rezzie system is insane).

I may be in the minority here, but I actually like the Ko rezzie system.

That said, I think I would be better served were I to return five months down the road once the hoopla has died down.  The rezzies won't be any easier to obtain but at least the psychological feeling of failure will have been alleviated.

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At some point, rezzies are likely to be a lot easier. They're now open seven days, and lunch service is coming soon. Ko may be one of those rare restaurants where the demand won't subside in the foreseeable future, but at most places it eventually does.

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They're open seven days? Huh.

Lunch is impossible for me since I work in midtown. Weekends though....hmmm.

[oakapple]

They're open seven days?  Huh.

Tuesdays were only just added, with the first service on May 27th (source: Eater).

Lunch is impossible for me since I work in midtown.

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However, lunch service will make it easier for everybody, since those who can go at lunchtime will no longer be competing for dinner rezzies. I wouldn't be surprised, though, if lunch is offered only on weekends—at least initially. Edited May 23, 2008 by oakapple (log)

[ulterior epicure]

However, lunch service will make it easier for everybody, since those who can go at lunchtime will no longer be competing for dinner rezzies. I wouldn't be surprised, though, if lunch is offered only on weekends—at least initially.

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I know I'm late to this game, and apologies if this is something that has already been disclosed, but will the lunch menu be identical to the dinner one (e.g. per se before they instituted a separate lunch menu)?

Edited May 23, 2008 by ulterior epicure (log)

[oakapple]

I know I'm late to this game, and apologies if this is something that has already been disclosed, but will the lunch menu be identical to the dinner one (e.g. per se before they instituted a separate lunch menu)?

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There has been no official word from Team Ko.

[kathryn]

You're comparing pre-New Yorker/pre-Bruni/pre-Wall Street Journal/etc days with now, correct?

I have friends who live on the West Coast who aren't really foodies who are now interested in the restaurant thanks to the New Yorker piece.

[ulterior epicure]

Did anyone on this forum happen to fetch the 9.45 four-top for next Thursday, June 5th? If so, I'd appreciate it if you could p.m. or email me.

[Fat Guy]

Per Eater.com, the menu at Ko is now $100.