Momofuku Ko (Part 1)

[Fat Guy]

But pork is the idiom in which Chang works. He utilizes that ingredient the way some French chefs utilize truffles and foie gras (or veal stock). And you can certainly find restaurants at the highest level where there are tasting menus with most courses containing either truffles or foie gras. Indeed, people pay a hefty premium for that.

[ulterior epicure]

I thought there was as much variety as one could possibly expect while still being able to attribute a definable style to the cuisine. I also thought the creativity quotient was substantially higher than at just about any restaurant outside of the molecular-gastronomy subset.

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I think that if pork came up over & over again in a long tasting menu at any other 3 or 4-star restaurant, as it does at Ko, it would probably be considered a weakness.

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Being a foreigner, who's primary experience with the momofukus is through this forum (and another one), I see the issue being whether the momofukus' (yes, collectively) primary focus (forte set aside for now) is on pork.

If so, then perhaps the disconnect (with regard to WK2's observation and the subsequent posts) between diner and tasting menu resides in the fact that the restaurant(s) fail to state (or acknowledge firmly) that pork is their focus.

If not, then I think oakapple's observation is particularly worthwhile.

Certainly, from what I've heard, pork is a major concern of Chang's and his repertoire. I have not had the bo ssam at momofuko ssam bar. Neither have I had the Berkshire noodles at momofuku noodle bar. In fact, from my one meal at each, I can only count the two plates of cured hams as my only pork encounters at a Chang restaurant (I know, this may seem criminal to some of you) - and neither were of his making.

I also know that, whether it's true or not, Chang prides himself on his pork dishes/creations.

However, a chef's pride in and usage of a certain product does not mean that his/her restaurant specializes in that product.

From what I know about momofuko ssam and momofuko noodle bar, I would say that pork is a point of pride, maybe even the house specialty, but by no means their one and only; there are just too many great non-pork dishes at both to pigeon-hole them in that way.

Whether momofuko ko is a pork-devoted restaurant, I do not know.

Certainly, if pork showed up multiple times on a tasting menu at a restaurant with no "specialization," then yes, I would consider it to be a weakness. But, if fish didn't show up multiple times, if not on every course, on a tasting menu at Le Bernardin, I would consider that a fatal flaw.

Edited to add: I failed to recall the very lovely steamed buns, which contained pork belly, that I've had at both ssam and noodle bar.

Edited May 19, 2008 by ulterior epicure (log)

[Fat Guy]

I don't think it's a pork restaurant. There aren't a lot of "pork dishes" the way you'd have fish dishes at Le Bernardin. Rather, the style of cooking simply utilizes pork products is many contexts: as garnishes, broths, cooking fat, etc.

[oakapple]

I don't think it's a pork restaurant. There aren't a lot of "pork dishes" the way you'd have fish dishes at Le Bernardin. Rather, the style of cooking simply utilizes pork products is many contexts: as garnishes, broths, cooking fat, etc.

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I wouldn't call it a pork restaurant either, but I do think Chang's repertoire runs the risk of being overly narrow. It would be as if Eric Ripert served a tasting menu with salmon recurring in five out of nine dishes. Mind you, it would still be terrific, but it wouldn't be to his credit if he kept doing that.

[WK2]

But pork is the idiom in which Chang works. He utilizes that ingredient the way some French chefs utilize truffles and foie gras (or veal stock). And you can certainly find restaurants at the highest level where there are tasting menus with most courses containing either truffles or foie gras. Indeed, people pay a hefty premium for that.

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To be clear, my initial post this morning wasn't necessarily aimed at Chang's pork obsession, but his fat obsession. I'll accept that the right answer for me might be something like "don't order tasting menus and expect a reasonably sized dinner, you idiot", though I'll stick to my theory that this was exceptionally difficult on the gut. I think I woke up smelling of assorted fats.

On the above issue, it's like those tasting menus, except that those restaurants usually serve other food, as you note. The foie gras or truffle tasting is a one night, or seasonal, or special event treat. If Chang cooked like this on a theme night, I'd totally agree with you. But the pork thing is more than that. As you say, it's his idiom, his style, and so I think other poster's criticism of his emphasis on pork is logically consistent. I haven't eaten enough meals at his places to decide for myself whether it's warranted, but I think one can at least plausibly claim the cuisine is limited in some way.

[Fat Guy]

It would be as if Eric Ripert served a tasting menu with salmon recurring in five out of nine dishes.

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I don't think it would be like that at all. Not unless Eric Ripert had already developed and become acclaimed for serving a cuisine in the idiom of salmon, with reference to cultural precedents for elevating salmon to the status of a culinary organizing principle, utilizing all parts of the salmon in a creatively diverse manner: using it as a cooking fat, using the skin as an amuse, using various parts of the flesh cured and cooked in a variety of ways, making stock from it, etc. Which is not to say every dish at Ko contains pork. If you asked for no pork you could probably still eat at Ko (I'm tempted to try it), but your experience would be atypical because pork is such a central ingredient. But the notion that this style is somehow creatively limited seems illogical to me. Creativity isn't a question of how many ingredients you use. It's a question of how you use them.

[Fat Guy]

The foie gras or truffle tasting is a one night, or seasonal, or special event treat. 

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Regardless, if a chef serves a truffle tasting menu nobody assumes the menu is uncreative simply by virtue of having truffles in every dish. Rather, in order to judge the creativity of the menu, we have to look at how the truffles are utilized. Two chefs could do truffle tasting menus, and one menu could be totally dull and unremarkable while the other could be brilliantly creative. And if that chef did a small-format restaurant with a set menu, and served only brilliantly creative truffle menus all season long, it wouldn't make it any less creative.

[Nathan]

The foie gras or truffle tasting is a one night, or seasonal, or special event treat. 

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Regardless, if a chef serves a truffle tasting menu nobody assumes the menu is uncreative simply by virtue of having truffles in every dish. Rather, in order to judge the creativity of the menu, we have to look at how the truffles are utilized. Two chefs could do truffle tasting menus, and one menu could be totally dull and unremarkable while the other could be brilliantly creative. And if that chef did a small-format restaurant with a set menu, and served only brilliantly creative truffle menus all season long, it wouldn't make it any less creative.

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this was tried a few years ago here in the city. Grimes reviewed it...don't remember if he complained about truffle fatigue.

[oakapple]

The foie gras or truffle tasting is a one night, or seasonal, or special event treat. 

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Regardless, if a chef serves a truffle tasting menu nobody assumes the menu is uncreative simply by virtue of having truffles in every dish. Rather, in order to judge the creativity of the menu, we have to look at how the truffles are utilized. Two chefs could do truffle tasting menus, and one menu could be totally dull and unremarkable while the other could be brilliantly creative. And if that chef did a small-format restaurant with a set menu, and served only brilliantly creative truffle menus all season long, it wouldn't make it any less creative.

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But I'm not aware of any chef in this town that has made a truffle tasting menu the central element of a restaurant. It's normally a special-occasion thing, or one option among others. Yes, Chang has found more ways to use pork than most of us thought possible, and it's a very creative concept. To be clear, I very much liked Momofuku Ko. But it is possible to like something, and at the same time recognize its limitations.

[ulterior epicure]

Now, wait a minute. WK2 said that the tasting was "heavy" for him/her. S/he also mentioned that there was a significant amout of pork and pork fat.

Assuming that Chang is still doing an iteration of crudo (or raw seafood), and assuming he's doing the shaved foie gras, then that's presumably two courses without (any?) pork. Now, the foie gras, by no means is a "light" course, even if it seems so. Unless they're frying the dessert in pork fat, or there's bacon in it, that's another course without pork.

Are we just magnifying the amount of pork (product) that is actually used in momofuko ko's food?

"Feeling" heavy is one thing, but being over-porked is another.

Edited May 19, 2008 by ulterior epicure (log)

[daisy17]

I'm a little confused - I'm pretty sure that my 2 amuses were pork related, and then porkbelly. No other pork for me. I'd say that the other Momos are much more porky than Ko. No?

I also am not sure I get the 5/9 salmon course comparison. Isn't Chang's use of pork more analogous to Ripert's use of fish? We'd all be prepared for and ok with a Ripert fish tasting menu, right?

ETA: UE and I were posting at the same time, and I think we're saying the same thing.

Edited May 19, 2008 by daisy17 (log)

[Fat Guy]

But I'm not aware of any chef in this town that has made a truffle tasting menu the central element of a restaurant.

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From the standpoint of the logic of the argument, that's not relevant. The point is that it wouldn't make the restaurant any more or less creative or even "limited," except to the extent that any restaurant that serves less than everything in the universe is limited. To be "limited" in a meaningful sense the restaurant would have to be diminished somehow by its dedication to truffles. But Ko is not diminished by its use of pork. Ko's use of pork is part of what makes the restaurant so good.

Yes, Chang has found more ways to use pork than most of us thought possible, and it's a very creative concept.

I think if you ask a hundred chefs "What's the most diverse ingredient, with the most culinary possibilities," you'll hear "pork" from a whole lot of them. Chang didn't come up with the diversity of pork. It's well established in various cuisines and sub-cuisines (charcuterie, etc.). Rather, he's running with it in a very bold -- some would say politically incorrect -- manner.

[Fat Guy]

I'm a little confused - I'm pretty sure that my 2 amuses were pork related, and then porkbelly.  No other pork for me.  I'd say that the other Momos are much more porky than Ko.  No?

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Also the apple pie is deep fried in lard, and I think pork appears in some of the other dishes -- I'm sure somebody is tabulating that now.

But I agree, there are two claims here: Ko's food is heavy; and Ko's food is limited by its devotion to pork. I've been discussing the latter. I have some thoughts on the former too, which I'll get to.

[daisy17]

Also the apple pie is deep fried in lard, and I think pork appears in some of the other dishes -- I'm sure somebody is tabulating that now.

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There are things one is better off just not knowing.

[Nathan]

The foie gras or truffle tasting is a one night, or seasonal, or special event treat. 

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Regardless, if a chef serves a truffle tasting menu nobody assumes the menu is uncreative simply by virtue of having truffles in every dish. Rather, in order to judge the creativity of the menu, we have to look at how the truffles are utilized. Two chefs could do truffle tasting menus, and one menu could be totally dull and unremarkable while the other could be brilliantly creative. And if that chef did a small-format restaurant with a set menu, and served only brilliantly creative truffle menus all season long, it wouldn't make it any less creative.

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But I'm not aware of any chef in this town that has made a truffle tasting menu the central element of a restaurant.

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does no one here remember 325 Spring Street?

[oakapple]

Isn't Chang's use of pork more analogous to Ripert's use of fish?  We'd all be prepared for and ok with a Ripert fish tasting menu, right?

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Not really, because all pork is derived from pigs (one genus among the mammals). Fish includes an entire class. The appropriate comparison would be, say, a meat tasting menu (allowing any meat, not just pork).

Of course, Chang isn't serving only pork; he just relies on it to an unusual degree.

[docsconz]

The foie gras or truffle tasting is a one night, or seasonal, or special event treat. 

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Regardless, if a chef serves a truffle tasting menu nobody assumes the menu is uncreative simply by virtue of having truffles in every dish. Rather, in order to judge the creativity of the menu, we have to look at how the truffles are utilized. Two chefs could do truffle tasting menus, and one menu could be totally dull and unremarkable while the other could be brilliantly creative. And if that chef did a small-format restaurant with a set menu, and served only brilliantly creative truffle menus all season long, it wouldn't make it any less creative.

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But I'm not aware of any chef in this town that has made a truffle tasting menu the central element of a restaurant.

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does no one here remember 325 Spring Street?

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That fact that this restaurant appears to not be particularly well remembered may be an indication that a truffle oriented tasting menu doesn't generally work beyond a limited seasonal approach. As wonderful as truffles are, it is extremely difficult to keep them perpetually interesting without adding real variety.

[WK2]

Now, wait a minute.  WK2 said that the tasting was "heavy" for him/her.  S/he also mentioned that there was a significant amout of pork and pork fat.

Assuming that Chang is still doing an iteration of crudo (or raw seafood), and assuming he's doing the shaved foie gras, then that's presumably two courses without (any?) pork.  Now, the foie gras, by no means is a "light" course, even if it seems so.  Unless they're frying the dessert in pork fat, or there's bacon in it, that's another course without pork. 

Are we just magnifying the amount of pork (product) that is actually used in momofuko ko's food? 

"Feeling" heavy is one thing, but being over-porked is another.

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Just as a factual note, the pork elements last night were (a) rind (b) english muffin © trout with bacon (d) pork belly kimchee consomee (e) apple pie (f) "smoked" egg (no, not pork, but it's clearly a play on pork, or at least to me)

[daisy17]

Just as a factual note, the pork elements last night were (a) rind (b) english muffin © trout with bacon (d) pork belly kimchee consomee (e) apple pie (f) "smoked" egg (no, not pork, but it's clearly a play on pork, or at least to me)

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ok, I'm with you on (a) - (d). (Trout with bacon wasn't on my menu.) But I don't get how something fried in lard (ugh, I really wish you hadn't told me that) counts as a pork dish. And, despite my love of the stuff, we cannot turn an egg into pork.

Edited May 19, 2008 by daisy17 (log)

[Sneakeater]

I'm a little confused - I'm pretty sure that my 2 amuses were pork related, and then porkbelly.  No other pork for me.  I'd say that the other Momos are much more porky than Ko.  No?

I also am not sure I get the 5/9 salmon course comparison.  Isn't Chang's use of pork more analogous to Ripert's use of fish?  We'd all be prepared for and ok with a Ripert fish tasting menu, right?

ETA: UE and I were posting at the same time, and I think we're saying the same thing.

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But there's a lot of hidden pork.

For example, when I went, one fish dish was accompanied by a cylinder of rice. It was delicious, maybe the best rice I've ever had.

I asked the chef if he did anything special to it to make it so good. His response: "No. Nothing special. I just brushed it with pork fat."

[ulterior epicure]

I'm a little confused - I'm pretty sure that my 2 amuses were pork related, and then porkbelly.  No other pork for me.  I'd say that the other Momos are much more porky than Ko.  No?

I also am not sure I get the 5/9 salmon course comparison.  Isn't Chang's use of pork more analogous to Ripert's use of fish?  We'd all be prepared for and ok with a Ripert fish tasting menu, right?

ETA: UE and I were posting at the same time, and I think we're saying the same thing.

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But there's a lot of hidden pork.

For example, when I went, one fish dish was accompanied by a cylinder of rice. It was delicious, maybe the best rice I've ever had.

I asked the chef if he did anything special to it to make it so good. His response: "No. Nothing special. I just brushed it with pork fat."

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I don't think I'm the only one who would argue that, on top of salt, sweet, bitter, sour and umami, lard is the sixth taste.

[daisy17]

But there's a lot of hidden pork.

For example, when I went, one fish dish was accompanied by a cylinder of rice.  It was delicious, maybe the best rice I've ever had.

I asked the chef if he did anything special to it to make it so good.  His response:  "No.  Nothing special.  I just brushed it with pork fat."

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Mmmm. Pork fat. (I'm ok for now - no one else needs to point out specific dishes with pork fat. It tastes better than it sounds.)

I know that Chang loves to work with pork, and I love him for it. It just seems little odd to me to count cooking fats and stocks in evaluating how pork-heavy his menu is. I'm sticking to my guns on my assertion that the menu I had was not overly porky.

I'm also not sure it's so unusual. When it comes to making good use of pig, couldn't we say the same thing about Babbo?

[ulterior epicure]

I'm also not sure it's so unusual.  When it comes to making good use of pig, couldn't we say the same thing about Babbo?

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Hrm, I'd argue pasta.

How so? What are the notable pork dishes at Babbo?

Every notable dish I can think of at Babbo involves either pasta or non-pork offal. Of course, I'm an offalhead, so getting it out of that gutter is hard for me.

Edited May 19, 2008 by ulterior epicure (log)

[ulterior epicure]

And, if you mean the use of pork fat at Babbo, I was under the impression that there's a lot more olive oil used than lard. Please tell me (someone) that I'm right.

[daisy17]

Sorry, I didn't mean the use of pork fat per se, just uses of pig products in general. In my mind, Mario loves the pig and uses it. I haven't been there in a while, but my recollection was that there was a lot of guanciale, pancetta, etc. But I am sure that you are right that there is more offal than pork.