How Important is an In-House Pasty Chef?

[chaosuk]

How important would it be for a place to have a pastry chef full-time? I am just looking at it from a fiscal standpoint. Pastry sales aren't that great say in 2-star joint. Would it then be better to have a consultant who can train a crew? Or is it still worth it to pay 90K to a pastry chef?

[Sethro]

Forgoing a serious wine or pastry program is just leaving yourself open to attack. Kind of a risky proposition in NY, where the critics swarm like wild wolves.

Even otherwise well recieved two-stars like little owl get a mention for their below par or outsourced desserts in every review, and that's not the best paragraph to close on.

[chaosuk]

But can it be done with a really good pastry chef/consultant who would have an annual contract. Someone like Jehangir Mehta.

[Vadouvan]

You dont need a 90K pastry chef.

Hire Will Goldfarb to set up your pastry program and teach your cooks

In 5 years short of large hotels and gargatuant restauranrts, pastry chefs are history.

[gingersweetiepie]

Ok, first off, I don't know a single 2 star pastry chef who makes 90K. If you do, let me now so I can have them overthrown and take their job.

Second, let's establish that this question refers to restaurants of 2 star caliber or less. Shoot for three stars or more... forget about it.

Consultancy is a sweet gig for the consultant; it's much riskier for the owner. What happens when the person/people who are trained quit/leave/have to be replaced? What about when you want to run a special with some amazing new produce, or need something on the fly? Are your pastry cooks skilled enough to do it with without an experienced person to guide them?

These are all things an experienced chef/restaurant owner can deal with, but why do it when their plates are already full?

Consultancy and outsourcing have their benefits, too. With the latter you can at least save tons of space. But you can easily find a pastry chef for less money. I mean shit, I know exec. chefs who make less than that.

[adegiulio]

In 5 years short of large hotels and gargatuant restauranrts, pastry chefs are history.

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That sounds like crazy talk to me. Care to elaborate?

[chaosuk]

I agree. Pastry chefs are never going to be history.

[Sethro]

All I'll say is there are a lot of earger young pastry chefs in NYC who would jump at the opportunity to run their own department for a fraction of 90k. Put an ad out, let a few of them do tastings for you...whats the harm? You may stumble across a burgeoning star.

[tb86]

most pastry chefs dont demand a salary of 90k, i currently do 2, 2 and 3 star restaraunts for less than that, tyou can easily pick up a young pastry chef for less than 55k in nyc no problem, as far as no pastrychefs in 5 yrs yeah that will happen if you enjoy all your desserts to be pre made by sysco, consultants work well as a guide, but your gonna need a strong guy to excecute your day to day operations,

[tb86]

chaosuk you planning a restaurant in nyc? you seem to be trying to set up some strange kitchen operation w 2 co exec chefs and no pastry chef,,, 2 star goals? be careful lots of big boys with full blown operations are getting 2 stars, under the current nyt reviews,, think about it long and har, could be a expensive mistake, unless your dave chang , or you got a ace up your sleeve...... just talk to the guys at varietal, about how costly the wrong chef pastry chef combo can be

[chaosuk]

Yes I am setting up a new place. Trying to budget for salaries for all the burgeoning stars who are going to be in my kitchen. I feel pastry is very important at the same time I don't want a Varietal happening to my operation. I change my mind about everything thousand times a day so it is nice that I can get some input from you all. cheers.

[alanamoana]

so hire someone who has been a pastry sous chef at some decent restaurants with the understanding that they'll start out with a low salary and as you guide their development give them the chance to move up/earn more money.

the above is better than hiring someone fresh out of culinary school for $10/hour and expecting them to run the department on their own without any sort of guidance; especially if you (the person opening the business and the chef) have no understanding of pastry.

[tb86]

thats what i thought seriously you can score a good young pastry chef for 45-55 k lots of young talent out there looking for a break, use craigslist and starchefs to advertise, do some tastings youll find someone,

[chaosuk]

I was thinking the same sort of situation.

[tb86]

You dont need a 90K pastry chef.

Hire Will Goldfarb to set up your pastry program and teach your cooks

In 5 years short of large hotels and gargatuant restauranrts, pastry chefs are history.

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Will is a great guy, as well as a very talented pastry chef, but for a opening you need a pastry chef, im almost sure will wont have the time to be at your place 10+hrs a day to get you rolling, why is it that there seems to always be a guy that says in 5 years........ dude your so off base its ridiculus, pastry is getting more and more complex as time passes, maybe we should let the savory chefs do it, then we can all enjoy dez menus of fruit plates and store bought ice cream sandwiches, if thats your idea of "fine dining"

[Vadouvan]

Will is a great guy, as well as a very talented pastry chef, but for a opening you need a pastry chef, im almost sure will wont have the time to be at your place 10+hrs a day to get you rolling, why is it that there seems to always be a guy that says in 5 years........ dude your so off base its ridiculus, pastry is getting more and more complex as time passes, maybe we should let the savory chefs do it, then we can all enjoy dez menus of fruit plates and store bought ice cream sandwiches, if thats your idea of "fine dining"

That's inherently the problem, limited thinking. I dont know what cooking school you went to but last time I checked averyone in the culinary program is taught the basics of pastry and just as soon as the graduate thats it, no more interest. My post was not to elicit your agreement, all I am simply stating is that small independently run restaurants are in fact starting to assemble kitchen teams composed of "Tournant Cooks", essentially a group of passionate people who walk the walk and are able to produce food without the old mentality that you need a formal "pastry chef" or tha pastry is for women.

Limited thinking produces the concept of "savory chefs", anyone who asks to be called chef should at least be able to make a dessert that isnt a fruit plate or store bought ice cream.

Why would a capable chef have to buy store bought ice cream ????

If you can make sabayon or hollandaise, i believe they also taught you creme anglaise during that same class. It's not about the chef making the dessert personally, it's about the chef delegating someone in the team to make the dessert and assuring they are competently doing it.

PASTRY isnt getting more and more complex as time passes.

PEOPLE are complicating "pastry" more and more as time passes.

There is a difference and in most cases the results are not good as in the recent Varietal fiasco.

Unfortunately today Innovation easily trumps flavor because it gets press.

Perhaps you ought to read this review .......

and pay attention to the dessert section.

That would be 3.5 stars out of 4 from the same Michael Bauer who trashed Gordon ramsay.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...FDGSCO75B11.DTL

Edited April 3, 2007 by Vadouvan (log)

[tb86]

yes at culinary school you are taught pastry, as are pastry cooks taught the basics of cooking, im a pastry chef i can sautee, braise, make pastas, i have basic understandings of these things but i would by no means attempt to assume that i will ever have a greater understanding of these techniques than do my counterparts in the hot kitchen, if thats limited thinking then i am guitly. Does a tournant know the proper temper curve for 65% chocolate, how much stabalizer to use per kilo of ice cream base, the difference between inverted sugar and glucose, what temprature a ganache is best emulsified at, how to make puff pastry, ect? i doubt it. Pastry chefs are using new techniques every day, form over function is not a good thing i by no means support that, good flavor is the desired outcome, that comes w years of experience. If you want to have a great restaurant w a serious pastry program a pastry chef is the way to go, no argument about it. Yes a chef can make ice cream, but does he know what temp is best to store it at, should it be run daily, how long should the base be left to mature before spinning, what machines are best for what applications?

[Sethro]

I was forced to learn the basics of biology in high school but I wouldn't be a very confident biologist! Probably part of the reason is that school (technical schools in particular) merely provide you with a platform to build upon with real world experience. If a chef doesn't want to be a pastry chef, he/she isn't going to put in the huge effort it requires to become confident running a pastry department.

Most of the chefs I know want their restaurants to have great dessert menus, but they don't want to be burdened with it at all.

[Vadouvan]

yes at culinary school you are taught pastry, as are pastry cooks taught the basics of cooking, im a pastry chef i can sautee, braise, make pastas, i have basic understandings of these things but i would by no means attempt to assume that i will ever have a greater understanding of these techniques than do my counterparts in the hot kitchen, if thats limited thinking then i am guitly. Does a tournant know the proper temper curve for 65% chocolate, how much stabalizer to use per kilo of ice cream base, the difference between inverted sugar and glucose, what temprature a ganache is best emulsified at, how to make puff pastry, ect? i doubt it. Pastry chefs are using new techniques every day, form over function is not a good thing i by no means support that, good flavor is the desired outcome, that comes w years of experience. If you want to have a great restaurant w a serious pastry program a pastry chef is the way to go, no argument about it. Yes a chef can make ice cream, but does he know what temp is best to store it at, should it be run daily, how long should the base be left to mature before spinning, what machines are best for what applications?

TB86, you are obviously a very competent person and good at what you do but my point is that you and a lot of other cooks (pastry or savory) exist in a bubble that you create for yourselves and subsequently assume that everyone else has created that bubble around them.

It simply isnt true.

Some people want to learn more than is expected of them.

You talk about continuation of creativity and pastry getting more complicated, you *should* strive to understand more about braising, sauteeing or making pasta.

I would love to see a braised quince in elderflower syrup in your desserts or a sauteed pineapple with coconut sorbet or chocolate cavatelli with pistachio "alfredo".

These may be absurd examples and laugh if you will but everyone in Ny seemed to swear they could taste "purple" when they had the dessert named meditation in purple and I am the crazy one.

You dont need any stabiliser for ice cream and if you want to, you can buy Frederic Bau's, ducasse's or Paco Torreblanca's books to figure it out.

Yes chefs do know what temp to store ice cream, it's the same temp we store our fennel and yuzu sorbet for the kumamoto oyster appetizer.

Of coure Ice cream should be run daily, we defrost overnight and re-run ice cream.

The carpigiani machines are excellent.

http://www.carpigiani-usa.com/

and if you cant afford the Italians, Americans make perfectly good ones too

http://www.taylor-company.com/product/ss_menu.htm

Everyone know's how to make puff dough, few people actually make it anymore.

The need to know the tempering curve of chocolate is fast becoming a moot point with the advent of carageenan, methocel and xanthan gum.

My point is this isnt an attack on pastry chefs, there is a field of broadly knowledgeable people who continously seek information on how to do things properly and they do get them done.

There are no cryptic things that only pastry chefs know, information is out there for those who wish to access it and that is why I gave you the Plumpjack review as an example.

But economically, I still stand by my position that the salary category of a pastry only chef will be slowly eliminated in the next few years from the mid level independent restaurant once operators find they cam employ broadly competent people.

[Vadouvan]

I was forced to learn the basics of biology in high school but I wouldn't be a very confident biologist! Probably part of the reason is that school (technical schools in particular) merely provide you with a platform to build upon with real world experience. If a chef doesn't want to be a pastry chef, he/she isn't going to put in the huge effort it requires to become confident running a pastry department.

Most of the chefs I know want their restaurants to have great dessert menus, but they don't want to be burdened with it at all.

1. The analogy does not work.

Being forced to learn biology in high school is no assurance that you will become a confident biologist.

Coughing up 25 to 50 Grand to be educated at Lenotre, Ritz Escoffier Place Vendome, Cordon Bleu or CIA has a strong implicit guarantee that you will become confident in making desserts.

2. A lot of people still make the assumption that Dessert = Pastry.

Sam Mason for one who is rightfully regarded as one of the city's most talented pastry chefs made a lot of interesting "desserts".

Less than 20% of them were actually "Pastry".

Did that diminish the flavor impact or his competence, not at all.

[Sethro]

I think your splitting hairs when it comes to Pastry/Dessert--we both know what the topic at hand is.

My point was that an exec chef works 70-100hr weeks just to manage the main menu, payroll, food costing etc, so when is he going to tac on the time to self-eductate and execute a substantial dessert menu? The amount of off-hours work that goes into devoping and fine-tuning menus is never-ending.

Most chef's are just not passionate about creating desserts, and that is a far more crucial ingredient to sucess than schooling.

I guess we'll see in five years if I'm out of a job. If I am, I certainly won't go back to hotside, although i think I was pretty good at it. I'm not a pastry chef because I'm incapable of fabricating proteins or afraid of burners...I'm a pastry chef because I love being a pastry chef. I love desserts.

If pastry chefs do become an endangered species, it won't be because Sam Mason changed the way that people structure a meal, in the span of five years.

Edited April 3, 2007 by Sethro (log)

[tb86]

i guess man, pastry chefs will be made obsolete by cooks that are competent in pastry, sorry. hmm what will we all be left to do? maybe open desert bars, or go work at hotels.

Yeah i guess the dining public will be satisfied with competent. Nothing like a multi course tasting menu that ends with some competent not that bad stuff, especially a multi course dessert menu of mediocrity....... vadovan are you a chef? do you do your own deserts? Have you spent anytime in a professsional kitchen, you seem to talk the talk,,,,,,, but can you back it up? Ive spent the majority of my adult life in kitchens across the country, and ive yet to meet a chef that thinks he knows better about desserts than a pastry chef,,,,, or at least that is foolish enough to claim to, and yes sauteeing is a basic pastry technique, as is brasing, poaching, roasting, frying these are all techniques we all know, and execute on a daily basis, i guess on that same train of thought one could claim that chefs in mid level restaurants will become obselete as well, but that would be foolish.

I guess that if your happy to work in a place that dosent care enough about the product they serve, than dont bother with a pastry chef. Its not really about egos, the "look at me i can do it too" but the customer and getting the best possible product in a timley manner, if your satisfied with your deal than thats great, you can always send your tournants to come "borrow" ideas from the guys that know what there doing.

[chaosuk]

The reason I posted this topic was just for the reason stated above. I am so dense when it comes to pastry. Temperatures et al.. You can't wing it. It can easily turn out horrible. I am good in the hot kitchen and that is where my strengths lie so I won't even attempt to indulge my ego by thinking that I can train someone on pastry. You guys really came thru for me today on this topic. Pastry has to be really good to be noted. I am not willing to put out mediocre stuff out there. Especially when the food is going to be unbelievable.

[Vadouvan]

I think your splitting hairs when it comes to Pastry/Dessert--we both know what the topic at hand is.

My point was that an exec chef works 70-100hr weeks just to manage the main menu, payroll, food costing etc, so when is he going to tac on the time to self-eductate and execute a substantial dessert menu? The amount of off-hours work that goes into devoping and fine-tuning menus is never-ending.

Most chef's are just not passionate about creating desserts, and that is a far more crucial ingredient to sucess than schooling.

I guess we'll see in five years if I'm out of a job. If I am, I certainly won't go back to hotside, although i think I was pretty good at it. I'm not a pastry chef because I'm incapable of fabricating proteins or afraid of burners...I'm a pastry chef because I love being a pastry chef. I love desserts.

If pastry chefs do become an endangered species, it won't be because Sam Mason changed the way that people structure a meal, in the span of five years.

I am not splitting hairs.

It simply is an important point that most desserts are not pastry.

Thus there isnt much in the logic that requires a specific person trained only in one discipline in a small to medium restaurant.

Yes most chefs are not passionate about desserts nor could they care less and One would say how much do you really care when you dont really care about educating yourself on what may be the last thing that people eat in your restaurant..

You arent even in the discussion, you are just responding emotionally.

[tb86]

good choice, at the end of the day the customers and their experience at your place is all that matters, let us know if you need any help, got lots of young pastry guys that would love a good opp