Staffing a kitchen in a ........

Timh · March 30, 2007

...... gastronomically challenged area.

Well I'm into my 8th month in a South Shore(Ma) town, pounding the stove in a small Italian enoteca/trattoria. While I wouldn't describe our food as 'fine dining" by any means, we attempt a higher level of cooking than what is practiced here. We make everything in house, breads, pastas, pastries, icecreams and sorbets. We butcher, and prep all food from its raw and natural state. No big deal, common in most quality restaurants, or so I thought. I now realize that the apparent lack of any sort of talented, or even capable, pool of cooks is due to the fct that the area has never had a culture of technical cooking kitchens. what is available are Brazillians(few are legal), and kids with serious baggage, or just cooks who strive for mediocrity. I am lucky in that I attracted a couple of people who "get" what I'm trying to do, but trying to fill out the kitchen has been an act of futility. What makes it more frustrating is that there a culinary schools in the area(vo-techs, etc.) What are they teaching these kids? Where are they going? My guess is that the kids take the class as a filler and the ciriculum has become soft as a result. With the busy season comming up, I'm not optimistic that anyone with any skill is gonna walk thru my door, but I also will not compomise the food either. Anyone else in the same boat?

FlourPower · March 30, 2007

I don't really have anything to add, but I feel your pain. We operated a small, from-scratch bakery and ran into the same thing. The only time we'd hear from the culinary students is when they had to get a couple weeks of "real world" experience in order to graduate. I have no idea what the hell those students expect to do upon graduation unless they're hoping for a job at Chilis or Applebees assembling pre-made, pre-bagged microwaveable crap.

robert40 · March 30, 2007

With the way culinary schools are pumping out student's you would think this would not be a fact of the industry. But unfortunately it is.

I can't count the times I have been in your position. Full of optimism and drive and the desire to succeed and produce a quality product. Only to find myself burned out in six months taking everything on my own shoulders.

I kid you not when I say there were times when I took staff to the finest restaurants in NY if I thought I seen a spark of enthusiasm in a prospective cook.

I did anything possible to enlighten a passion within them, even if it was out of my own pocket.

Mostly to no avail as the realization hit me that many are not there for the same reason as I was. Many were looking for weekend beer money and had no other expectations or desire. Unfortunate fact of the business.

Keep trying and hopefully you will get lucky.

turkeybone · March 31, 2007

Ugh Im in the same boat now. I'm Upstate NY /trying/ to make some nice things happen with the bar Im running -- ugh already in the few months we turned over the whole kitchen (except me) and got rid of the mediocrity. No more premade stuff, actually having some good food out there.

The problem is now, this town is so small, the locals just bitch and moan about the prices that they remember from 20 years ago, and the college kids just want cheap wings. The place is making money now (cut the food cost from 46% to 32% in 2 months), and the busy season is coming, but we can barely find another competent person; I work dinners, my counterpart works lunch, and the uber grand exec himself has to come down and cover our days off. If we could find /a single/ person who had some drive to be not shitty, we'd all get some breathing room. On top of this, the city 25 miles away seems to tempt me with more and more enticing restaurant positions opening, and listening to my friend talk about shadowing at Per Se last night makes me more depressed with every 2oz cup of blue cheese I portion.

David D'Aprix · March 31, 2007

Ugh Im in the same boat now. I'm Upstate NY /trying/ to make some nice things happen with the bar Im running --
The problem is now, this town is so small, the locals just bitch and moan about the prices that they remember from 20 years ago, and the college kids just want cheap wings.
Do you care to say exactly where you are? I can certainly empathize.
I was GM at a place in Seneca Falls a few years ago, you sound just like me. No one would pay a reasonable price, they wanted huge drinks for two dollars, and the help came and went at will. the work ethic was zilch, the skill level worse, but they wanted the world. One time I place an ad in two newspapers for a chef, got no repliesl. I spent most of the year in the kitchen, should have set it up that way in the first place.
Luckily, the owners ran out of money after a year and I came back to Ithaca, which is a whole different world, although restaurants here pay poorly. All the good places are chef-owned, and they pay cooks maybe ten dollars an hour tops. You can't expect much for that.

turkeybone · April 1, 2007

Ugh Im in the same boat now. I'm Upstate NY /trying/ to make some nice things happen with the bar Im running --
The problem is now, this town is so small, the locals just bitch and moan about the prices that they remember from 20 years ago, and the college kids just want cheap wings.
Do you care to say exactly where you are? I can certainly empathize.
I was GM at a place in Seneca Falls a few years ago, you sound just like me. No one would pay a reasonable price, they wanted huge drinks for two dollars, and the help came and went at will. the work ethic was zilch, the skill level worse, but they wanted the world. One time I place an ad in two newspapers for a chef, got no repliesl. I spent most of the year in the kitchen, should have set it up that way in the first place.
Luckily, the owners ran out of money after a year and I came back to Ithaca, which is a whole different world, although restaurants here pay poorly. All the good places are chef-owned, and they pay cooks maybe ten dollars an hour tops. You can't expect much for that.
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I'm in Aurora. I worked at the Statler a few years ago (chef Hartman era) when I was a student (non-hotelie, though I'm probably going to apply next spring). I just graduated from the CIA this past September, so I was very excited to get a chance to run a kitchen right out of the gate. But now I'm almost literally doing it all myself, as I said. And I'm not competing with other restaurants, its with the Firehouse's charity bbq and spaghetti dinners. As good as the food can be, a half hour is just too far away from Ithaca to be worth driving, especially with all the variety Ithaca has. The most enticing job posting Ive seen is like, $13-$15 to be a lead line cook at Maxie's, and at best I would be just re-creating what has been working for them for almost a decade.
So yeah, on the one hand, I like having a lot of control and responsibility, and being able to say "Look, I took this restaurant from total crap to profitable", but it's tough not having anyone really excited about food, either in the dining room or behind the line.

Mikeb19 · April 1, 2007

This is the reason I've turned down 2 exec jobs, and now am leaving the profession altogether (although for the interim I'm considering a golf course/chain restaurant job).

The reason for the lack of decent employees: the wages suck. Why would someone want to bust their tail end for 10-12 bucks an hour in a fine dining restaurant, when you can get 50/year as a line cook at a chain restaurant (that's what many are offering for experienced guys - they've got the cash). If you move up to management, you can be looking at 60-90 grand a year.

It's impossible for a fine dining restaurant to offer anything close to this, but for a restaurant that does 3 million a year in revenue, with food costs of 18 percent, not to mention all the liquor (many of these places are night-club type places after hours), they can. Fine dining restaurants just can't compete money-wise. And quite frankly, once experienced cooks burn out, have a family or a kid, it makes alot of sense to work in chain restaurants.

I had a buddy who used to be an exec in a fine dining restaurant, but he ended up having an unexpected kid. So what does he do, goes to a chain restaurant. Lands the Kitchen Manager job (equivalent of Exec Chef), works 40 hour weeks, makes 90 a year. Can leave his job at the office, and spend time with his kid.

Even guys like Thomas Keller, Ducasse, can't compete wage-wise. Top kitchens around the world are staffed with tons of free and minimum wage labour, only Exec and Sous level guys make any sort of money, even at the top end.

Jmahl · April 1, 2007

This is the reason I've turned down 2 exec jobs, and now am leaving the profession altogether (although for the interim I'm considering a golf course/chain restaurant job).
The reason for the lack of decent employees: the wages suck. Why would someone want to bust their tail end for 10-12 bucks an hour in a fine dining restaurant, when you can get 50/year as a line cook at a chain restaurant (that's what many are offering for experienced guys - they've got the cash). If you move up to management, you can be looking at 60-90 grand a year.
It's impossible for a fine dining restaurant to offer anything close to this, but for a restaurant that does 3 million a year in revenue, with food costs of 18 percent, not to mention all the liquor (many of these places are night-club type places after hours), they can. Fine dining restaurants just can't compete money-wise. And quite frankly, once experienced cooks burn out, have a family or a kid, it makes alot of sense to work in chain restaurants.
I had a buddy who used to be an exec in a fine dining restaurant, but he ended up having an unexpected kid. So what does he do, goes to a chain restaurant. Lands the Kitchen Manager job (equivalent of Exec Chef), works 40 hour weeks, makes 90 a year. Can leave his job at the office, and spend time with his kid.
Even guys like Thomas Keller, Ducasse, can't compete wage-wise. Top kitchens around the world are staffed with tons of free and minimum wage labour, only Exec and Sous level guys make any sort of money, even at the top end.
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Mike, you have got it exactly right.

Jmahl

robert40 · April 1, 2007

As for myself, I would have not hesitated paying top dollar if you had the chops to back it up.

But I had cases when I told so-called experienced cooks to break down a few tenderloins only to come back and find them portioned but untrimmed. :blink:

If one can't handle the very basics as that I have a hard time justifying their demand for 15 dollars a hour.

And that may be the lowest level of a example, the highest being please don't smoke crack next to the dumpster. :angry:

I believe the talent pool is lacking in the mid-level restaurants throughout the country which most likely reflects about 90% of all.

Mikeb19 · April 1, 2007

As for myself, I would have not hesitated paying top dollar if you had the chops to back it up.
But I had cases when I told so-called experienced cooks to break down a few tenderloins only to come back and find them portioned but untrimmed.
If one can't handle the very basics as that I have a hard time justifying their demand for 15 dollars a hour.
And that may be the lowest level of a example, the highest being please don't smoke crack next to the dumpster.
I believe the talent pool is lacking in the mid-level restaurants throughout the country which most likely reflects about 90% of all.
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Just to give an idea of what people are offering around here: You can make 15 dollars an hour working at a Donut or coffee shop, a 16 year old kid can get 15 dollars an hour at a chain restaurant, and during the summer you can flip burgers and make club sandwhiches at a golf course for 15 dollars an hour (sometimes more). Hell, 14 year old kids in fast food restaurants start at 10 dollars an hour these days...

Outside of the hospitality business, you can START a trade with zero experience, have your training paid for, get full benefits, and a 15 dollar an hour wage out of the gate (after 1 year goes up to 20 an hour, after a few years and you recieve your ticket it goes to 30-45 dollars an hour, depending on the trade). You can do just about any thoughtless manual labour and make 15-20 dollars an hour.

For 15 dollars an hour all you should expect is someone to come in sober, and be able to learn simple tasks. I've worked in fine dining restaurants where the garde- manger cook was a homeless guy they brought in off the street, because that's the only person that was willing to work for their wage...

turkeybone · April 1, 2007

Yeah, it all depends on where "here" is to each one of us. I mean, at the very least, being understaffed is fine for my wallet, but I don't want to be hourly forever. Also, Im still in my mid 20s so I can take a lickin and keep on tickin, but my girlfriend wont be able to stand seeing me 4 hours a day forever.

And yeah, trying to find some good help is tough, real tough up here. My specific co-workers are great, thank god, but thats after we got rid of all the other people -- my kitchen manager whose lunch shift would be 10-whenever i got there, and then she'd sit at the bar and drink. Or the prep monkey who tested burgers doneness by tossing them on the grill and judging their bounce. Getting the dish guys to smoke up only /after/ the rush is an accomplishment.

Luckily Ithaca has a strong restaurant/organic/local community, and the chain restaurants aren't as all powerful as Im sure they are in much of the country.

robert40 · April 1, 2007

As for myself, I would have not hesitated paying top dollar if you had the chops to back it up.
But I had cases when I told so-called experienced cooks to break down a few tenderloins only to come back and find them portioned but untrimmed.
If one can't handle the very basics as that I have a hard time justifying their demand for 15 dollars a hour.
And that may be the lowest level of a example, the highest being please don't smoke crack next to the dumpster.
I believe the talent pool is lacking in the mid-level restaurants throughout the country which most likely reflects about 90% of all.
←
Just to give an idea of what people are offering around here: You can make 15 dollars an hour working at a Donut or coffee shop, a 16 year old kid can get 15 dollars an hour at a chain restaurant, and during the summer you can flip burgers and make club sandwhiches at a golf course for 15 dollars an hour (sometimes more). Hell, 14 year old kids in fast food restaurants start at 10 dollars an hour these days...
Outside of the hospitality business, you can START a trade with zero experience, have your training paid for, get full benefits, and a 15 dollar an hour wage out of the gate (after 1 year goes up to 20 an hour, after a few years and you recieve your ticket it goes to 30-45 dollars an hour, depending on the trade). You can do just about any thoughtless manual labour and make 15-20 dollars an hour.
For 15 dollars an hour all you should expect is someone to come in sober, and be able to learn simple tasks. I've worked in fine dining restaurants where the garde- manger cook was a homeless guy they brought in off the street, because that's the only person that was willing to work for their wage...
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But you see this may be the very problem that the industry is now facing.

Before anything, I can't help but believe many culinary students are disillusioned by the wealth and fame of the Ducasse's, Keller's and Jean Georges of the world.

I'm still a firm believer in the notion that this business is driven on passion and the love of the job and not the ambition of getting rich. This is not saying hard working people are not entitled to a decent wage.

With that said. At what point can the average little Sally's Italian Cafe in No-Wheres ville USA afford 20 dollar an hour cooks? And at what point can the average owner be assured his/her grill cook will show up Saturday night without a hangover? What will that simple expectation cost 20, 25 dollars a hour?

I just can't see the small time owner other then the chains affording that kind of unskilled labor cost. Iv'e seen cases of chefs having to pay the off the charts cost of peeled and deveined shrimp because it was more cost affective then paying the labor of a cook taking half the day to do it.

paul o' vendange · April 1, 2007

Man, Tim, I feel for you. We were in precisely this situation. We lived in a northern outpost, the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, and established Waterstone in the Spring of 2004. There is a culinary program, but in 2-4 years' time, as I understand it, they get one day - one day - on stock making, and their practical work is similarly thin over the course of the program. Additionally, despite our earnest and repeated attempts to reach out to the program in the way of offering internships, etc., we never heard from them once during our tenure. Perhaps it is summed up by one person who actually did come our way from the program - who left after day two of stockmaking, because she only "wanted to cook for celebrities." Quote. Tant pis pour eux, et c'est la vie.

Like yourself, we, too, butchered everything on premises, maintained up to 10 or so stocks, in-house charcuterie and patisserie, etc., and it was a tremendous challenge to draw in people, and train them to do what was needed to be done. Par for the course, and absolutely what needed to be, I was pulling 17-20 hour days, 7 days per week for the first several months of our life.

However, I think in so many ways, I was lucky as they come. If the culinary program was a total wash, when my first sous was picked up by the feds (another colorful tale), a professor from the program stepped in to guest with me, a real pleasure, and now friend; and I made it clear from day one that anyone who wanted to learn to cook in this way, provided they were serious, would be given the opportunity. Two former dishwashers became trusted members on my side of the line - one hot side, next to me, one fully embracing garde manger and all its duties. It was crazy to attempt this where we lived, but to a person, the kitchen staff embraced the rigor and the standard I sought to put in place, and my wife established a similar ethos among the front of house people. Fully 1 month prior to opening, all staff tried food, wine, everything we did; were given the chance (actually, expected) to develop their palate and own a "body-intelligence" as to what Waterstone offered.

I do think I was lucky. I also think it had something to do with the chance for these quality people to do something they couldn't have otherwise dreamt of doing in our area, and they took to it with alacrity. I demanded highly of them, and at the same time, I respected and loved them as family. With our closure, I miss them more than anything else. I wish I could pass some encouragement on to you. I honestly feel for your plight and if I can help you in any way, please feel free to PM me anytime.

...... gastronomically challenged area.
Well I'm into my 8th month in a South Shore(Ma) town, pounding the stove in a small Italian enoteca/trattoria. While I wouldn't describe our food as 'fine dining" by any means, we attempt a higher level of cooking than what is practiced here. We make everything in house, breads, pastas, pastries, icecreams and sorbets. We butcher, and prep all food from its raw and natural state. No big deal, common in most quality restaurants, or so I thought. I now realize that the apparent lack of any sort of talented, or even capable, pool of cooks is due to the fct that the area has never had a culture of technical cooking kitchens. what is available are Brazillians(few are legal), and kids with serious baggage, or just cooks who strive for mediocrity. I am lucky in that I attracted a couple of people who "get" what I'm trying to do, but trying to fill out the kitchen has been an act of futility. What makes it more frustrating is that there a culinary schools in the area(vo-techs, etc.) What are they teaching these kids? Where are they going? My guess is that the kids take the class as a filler and the ciriculum has become soft as a result. With the busy season comming up, I'm not optimistic that anyone with any skill is gonna walk thru my door, but I also will not compomise the food either. Anyone else in the same boat?
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Edited April 1, 2007 by paul o' vendange (log)

Mikeb19 · April 2, 2007

But you see this may be the very problem that the industry is now facing.
Before anything, I can't help but believe many culinary students are disillusioned by the wealth and fame of the Ducasse's, Keller's and Jean Georges of the world.
I'm still a firm believer in the notion that this business is driven on passion and the love of the job and not the ambition of getting rich. This is not saying hard working people are not entitled to a decent wage.
With that said. At what point can the average little Sally's Italian Cafe in No-Wheres ville USA afford 20 dollar an hour cooks? And at what point can the average owner be assured his/her grill cook will show up Saturday night without a hangover? What will that simple expectation cost 20, 25 dollars a hour?
I just can't see the small time owner other then the chains affording that kind of unskilled labor cost. Iv'e seen cases of chefs having to pay the off the charts cost of peeled and deveined shrimp because it was more cost affective then paying the labor of a cook taking half the day to do it.

At what point can a cook accept 10 dollars an hour when rentals start at 800 a month for a 1 bedroom?

The market decides how much a particular service or good is worth, sucks when you're on the losing end, but that's life. Either that small operation makes some changes to become profitable, or they close up shop.

I used to have passion for cooking. It disappeared once I realized I was still living in the ghetto, still dealing with all the shit that comes with that life, still broke, and I was basically subsidizing an incompetant owner by working for less than I should have been (and this was at a top restaurant recognized nationally). The majority of the cooks at that job were living with their parents (in their mid 20's!) - it's rediculous, a restaurant is a business, not a charity.

paul o' vendange · April 2, 2007

Respectfully, I don't know that that's quite it, though, Mike, is it? Absolutely - market rules. But in a small area, who is making $20 per hour, or, for that matter, paying $800 rent?

Nevertheless, I do think there is a culture based on illusion among the students and recent grads-cum-Next Celebrity-Wunderkinds, and they are in for a rude awakening when the reality of the industry hits them square between the eyes.

I know in our instance, we paid every position at a far better rate than was obtained anywhere in our region. I know what it is to slog it out and get paid merde, so I wanted to do everything we could. But it is nowhere near a decent livelihood, by any objective standard - and my wife and I were, objectively, the lowest on the totem pole, going months without paying ourselves a dime. As you say, the market rules - but it rules on both sides of the aisle. As you did, if such a condition makes you say the hell with it, you leave the industry. I wish conditions were such that the industry could work under another paradigm, but with margins as razor thin as they are, I do not know of any other way.

I don't want to put words in your mouth. Maybe the question you raise is whether the industry itself needs to go the way of the dodo bird. If so, I'd say this is a legitimate, and difficult, question. My view's pretty clear. I know I loathe what I see in so many industries, not just food: rampant consolidation and, from my perspective, the destruction that results. But plenty like what results, and if this is what the market wants, it will get it.

Edited April 2, 2007 by paul o' vendange (log)

Mikeb19 · April 2, 2007

Respectfully, I don't know that that's quite it, though, Mike, is it? Absolutely - market rules. But in a small area, who is making $20 per hour, or, for that matter, paying $800 rent?
Nevertheless, I do think there is a culture based on illusion among the students and recent grads-cum-Next Celebrity-Wunderkinds, and they are in for a rude awakening when the reality of the industry hits them square between the eyes.
I know in our instance, we paid every position at a far better rate than was obtained anywhere in our region. I know what it is to slog it out and get paid merde, so I wanted to do everything we could. But it is nowhere near a decent livelihood, by any objective standard - and my wife and I were, objectively, the lowest on the totem pole, going months without paying ourselves a dime. As you say, the market rules - but it rules on both sides of the aisle. As you did, if such a condition makes you say the hell with it, you leave the industry. I wish conditions were such that the industry could work under another paradigm, but with margins as razor thin as they are, I do not know of any other way.
I don't want to put words in your mouth. Maybe the question you raise is whether the industry itself needs to go the way of the dodo bird. If so, I'd say this is a legitimate, and difficult, question. My view's pretty clear. I know I loathe what I see in so many industries, not just food: rampant consolidation and, from my perspective, the destruction that results. But plenty like what results, and if this is what the market wants, it will get it.
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Reminds me of a restaurant I helped open once. It was a barbeque restaurant, on a crackhead infested street. It was done by an independant owner, at a VERY low budget (I won't say how much, but it was rediculously low, I was beyond shocked). Now, 2 years later, they're packed every night, cooks are making good money (comparable to the chains, much better than fine dining). I don't think the industry is going the way of the dodo, but I do think there are more fine dining restaurants than the market can handle. Also, reminds me of a tiny Donair place that opened in my old 'hood, again, super low budget but now they're huge, and making money (and they even pay more for staff than many larger restaurants). In job placement advertisements you can see ethnic restaurants, once notorious for illegal labour and low wages, offering more than the fine dining restaurants.

I know very well that it IS possible for independants to make tons of money, pay staff well, and produce a quality product because I've seen it. Hell, one of the biggest chains in Canada was only a single, family owned restaurant a mere 20 years ago. I've even seen a guy make a decent living by setting up a small stand outside a health club with 2 induction burners, a blender and a mini-cooler, and serve up stir-frys and mixed drinks (non-alcoholic). He started off with a single stand, and I've seen several more since then.

The biggest problem I've seen in the dozens of restaurants I've worked in, is trying to do too much. One such restaurant is a small bistro in the suburbs. They've got good press, but at the same time they don't have a chef, they have a single cook (usually a friend of the boss, usually doesn't last long), and are trying to do fine dining-type food (and I know they're not making money, also looking for investors).

Another restaurant I worked at - we were doing food that was absolutely rediculous. The highest quality ingredients money could possibly buy (we'd use French grey sea salt in our blanching water, we'd bring in truffles, blonde goose foie gras - we were 1 of only 2 restaurants in the country buying that foie, Beluga and Oscietra caviars, etc..), the best preparations (chef was super talented, came out of the best restaurants in europe, the rest of our staff was incredibly skilled as well), and we got awarded huge by the national foodie press. Unfortunately we were also serving a bunch of rednecks who only wanted steak and potatoes, we had to keep prices decent and portions big which killed the foodcost, and staff didn't get paid. Lesson learned - you can serve the best food in the city, and still not make money (since then they've simplified things somewhat, are making more money, however staff are still incredibly underpaid and overworked). And I've seen many more poorly planned independants that could only survive because of underpaid staff, help from family and friends, etc...

The whole fine dining glory thing doesn't apply only to culinary school grads either, it also applies to owners. Many think owning a restaurant is going to be all fun and games, that you can just open it and suddenly you're making money, and everyone wants to do fancy food.

Anyhow, sorry for the long posts. Cooking is still a huge passion of mine, although working in fine restaurants no longer is. Honestly, I probably will end up back in the industry, although now I've taken a much greater interest in the business and financial side of things.

Franky2Times · April 6, 2007

Mike, I almost agree with everything you imply. However, having learned how to cook in several countries, including this one, I can say that Americans lack the will and desire to learn a very hard trade that can be rewarding when mastered. I always compare it to law school where you have to invest a lot of money, spend countless hours for at least 5 years just studying and end up earning very little money for years unless you slave it off for a big firm, assuming the said firm will hire you. In both cases, it is a tremendous investment of time and money from the student. You're not gonna be a partner in a law firm unless you've worked for them for 10 years or so AFTER your 5 year school program. You're not gonna become a chef unless you've learned your basics either in school, paying money for it, or working basically for free for years. Then, you start working for real!!! I've seen broiler guys perfectly cook 500 steaks to order for $12.50 an hour for 10 hours. These guys have more than 10 years of experience. But you know what, these same guys I know are now big time chefs either here in NY or back in their own countries...and making big $$$. What most people refuse to understand is that cooking is much less of an art than it is a trade.

Mikeb19 · April 6, 2007

Mike, I almost agree with everything you imply. However, having learned how to cook in several countries, including this one, I can say that Americans lack the will and desire to learn a very hard trade that can be rewarding when mastered. I always compare it to law school where you have to invest a lot of money, spend countless hours for at least 5 years just studying and end up earning very little money for years unless you slave it off for a big firm, assuming the said firm will hire you. In both cases, it is a tremendous investment of time and money from the student. You're not gonna be a partner in a law firm unless you've worked for them for 10 years or so AFTER your 5 year school program. You're not gonna become a chef unless you've learned your basics either in school, paying money for it, or working basically for free for years. Then, you start working for real!!! I've seen broiler guys perfectly cook 500 steaks to order for $12.50 an hour for 10 hours. These guys have more than 10 years of experience. But you know what, these same guys I know are now big time chefs either here in NY or back in their own countries...and making big $$$. What most people refuse to understand is that cooking is much less of an art than it is a trade.
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Where I live (Calgary), this is the situation. The AVERAGE house price is more than $400,000.00, and is expected to hit $450,000.00 or more this next year. Rental prices are equally rediculous.

How on earth are you supposed to learn a trade when you can't even make rent? Recently, I've actually seen some cooks quit because they quite literally couldn't make their rental payments. I'm lucky - I'm on the high end of the pay scale in kitchens, and my rent is very low, but I'm still living poor.

In other skilled trades, 5 years of experience means you're making $80,000.00 a year.

Timh · April 7, 2007

What I've got are two ends of the spectrum, one an idealistic young 20 something who wants to cook clean food, loves the baking and pastry,and likes the music i play(i'm quite sure shes the 'adreneline junky" we are described) The other is a brazillian who I happen to spark something in, he discovered his love of cooking, though its not as strong as his desire to make loads of tax free money. But they both support me, and I bend over backwards to make sure they have a good environment to succeed or at least be comfortable in. A recent hire is working out well, good experience, no baggage, and buyes into my approach(likes the music too). It also helps that the public is crazy receptive to what we're doing, really the only gig in town. (And to think we're only 30 min south of Beantown).

andrewB · April 7, 2007

Mike,

I must say i am glad you are getting out of the industry. You sound bitter and disillusioned as to the career path i believe you were NOT forced into. It is like becoming a priest and then complaining to others around you that you can't have sex!!

All of us working in this industry should have hopefully known what we were getting into when we started. This is not the industry to make alot of money in. this is not the industry where you work 36 hours a week and have weekends off. this is not the industry which gives you paid holidays and 'sick' days.

This industry is rifled with passion, emotion, and adrenaline. This industry is what keeps you up late at night thinking about your stocks slowly cooking in an unwatched kitchen. this industry is what wakes you up in the morning with the thought of all that could go wrong and the solutions for them. this industry is responisble for our highest highs and our lowest lows.

there is no karma in the kitchen. for everytime we cut and burn ourselves we don't get a 'warm fuzzy' pat on the back, you get more stress, more cuts, and more burns.

this industry is not for the weak of heart or the weak of will and maybe, just maybe that's what's wrong with the industry these days and it is a problem we see in our culture in general: people are weak, soft and lazy, people expect to make $90k a year 5 yeasr after school without having to work for it, people close their eyes, sit on their behinds, and expect someone to give them something for nothing!!!

I am damn proud to be a cook. i wear my cuts, scraps, and burns with pride. what this industry lacks in economic compensation, it more than makes up for in pride, passion, creativity, self expression, and the most bareboned human emotions...

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.... it couldn't be said more simply

i work in a country in europe which has no history of gastronomy. my job is to teach and train these young kids and give them the spark of interest and passion which will grow inside them. all of us in this industry were not so much taught how to hold a knife or peel a carrot, but we were taught something more about ourselves, about the world around us, what it meant to have passion and drive. the greatest thing you can instill in any cook is this passion and drive. if you don't have it, it will never transcend...

Risi e Bisi · April 7, 2007

Mike,

I hear where you are comming from, and it's not the same industry as it was 10 years ago.

You need a couple of good sous chefs at the beginning for support, and start training the staff from scratch.

English is a second language in my kitchen and these guys have been carrying my ass for several years. There are other factors involved in keeping people around for the long haul, and it's not all pay.

Schedule so they can pick up other work after or before their shift, provide good staff food,(we do menudo on sunday morning), make the job enjoyable and have fun yourself.

Good Luck

Mikeb19 · April 7, 2007

Mike,
I must say i am glad you are getting out of the industry. You sound bitter and disillusioned as to the career path i believe you were NOT forced into. It is like becoming a priest and then complaining to others around you that you can't have sex!!
All of us working in this industry should have hopefully known what we were getting into when we started. This is not the industry to make alot of money in. this is not the industry where you work 36 hours a week and have weekends off. this is not the industry which gives you paid holidays and 'sick' days.
This industry is rifled with passion, emotion, and adrenaline. This industry is what keeps you up late at night thinking about your stocks slowly cooking in an unwatched kitchen. this industry is what wakes you up in the morning with the thought of all that could go wrong and the solutions for them. this industry is responisble for our highest highs and our lowest lows.
there is no karma in the kitchen. for everytime we cut and burn ourselves we don't get a 'warm fuzzy' pat on the back, you get more stress, more cuts, and more burns.
this industry is not for the weak of heart or the weak of will and maybe, just maybe that's what's wrong with the industry these days and it is a problem we see in our culture in general: people are weak, soft and lazy, people expect to make $90k a year 5 yeasr after school without having to work for it, people close their eyes, sit on their behinds, and expect someone to give them something for nothing!!!
I am damn proud to be a cook. i wear my cuts, scraps, and burns with pride. what this industry lacks in economic compensation, it more than makes up for in pride, passion, creativity, self expression, and the most bareboned human emotions...
If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.... it couldn't be said more simply
i work in a country in europe which has no history of gastronomy. my job is to teach and train these young kids and give them the spark of interest and passion which will grow inside them. all of us in this industry were not so much taught how to hold a knife or peel a carrot, but we were taught something more about ourselves, about the world around us, what it meant to have passion and drive. the greatest thing you can instill in any cook is this passion and drive. if you don't have it, it will never transcend...
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Maybe the industry needs to change then. You simply CANNOT run a business off of passion. It's not a fucking charity. It's a business. If money doesn't come in the doors close, period.

If you work simply for the love of the job, guess what? Now you're a slave to your job and your employer.

Why do we all work? To pay bills, so we can LIVE. But guess what, the economics are changing where I live. 10 years ago an average house cost $140K, right now an average house costs $420K. But cook wages (in fine dining) have gone up only by a couple dollars an hour. What used to be a good wage for a cook 10 years ago, can't even pay the bills right now. Businesses either adapt, or shut down shop.

The difference between when I started in the industry, and now? Now I have investments, I think about my future, about business. Sure, when it comes to work I'm not as passionate as I used to be, but now I actually have a life - I can see my friends, my family. I have a place of my own to live in.

As far as not being 'strong' enough to make it in the business - I've seen my best friends arrested, I've come home to see all the walls in my house covered in blood, my house trashed, I've had the police tail me many times, I've had people pull weapons on me, my friends, I've even had one of my best friends die. I've seen the gang life, I've seen some people very close to me get caught up in it, and still others I've seen become drug addicts. And throughout all this bullshit, I STILL managed to succeed in some of the top restaurants in the country. I didn't go through all that bullshit so that in 10 years I could STILL be living in the ghetto.... Call me bitter if you want, the only difference is that now I'd rather work to live, instead of living to work.

Again, I'll say - restaurants are BUSINESSES, not charities. And you know what, there ARE restaurants out there willing to pay up. Too bad for those who can't pay up. Right now I'm sick with an extended illness, however in a few months I'm going back to work with a clear mind, and a new plan. No more fine dining, theres no money in that. I'll probably end up in a corporate restaurant, or something high volume - I've got enough experience that every resume I drop off gets me a job offer.

And you know what, I still do love cooking. I just don't love working for nothing.

Edited April 7, 2007 by Mikeb19 (log)

paul o' vendange · April 8, 2007

Mike, I have resisted joining in, as I think we're getting off Tim's original topic, but just a couple of thoughts.

Every "successful" restaurant or concept you mentioned in your earlier post was other than fine dining. There is no doubt it is easier to make a go of it in "fast casual" dining, for example, with an average check of $6, than $60; the profit is simply better. Speaking purely personally, I also haven't any interest in spending my time making this kind of food or joining the legion of Chipotle clones in moving from a "mom and pop" to a chain. So, I accept I'm going to make crap in the way of compensation, and likely will die tired, not exactly rolling in dough.

I do think you are confusing something though. No one is asking for a handout. You are exactly right that what we do is a business, not a charity - but this holds everywhere. Because it is a business, what will be will be. You pay adequately relative to your team's desire to stay and provide their sweat, they will stay. You don't, they leave.

But it's all part of some personal calculus. Much as a customer might think a $300 meal was eminently worth it, and might feel ripped off by a $1.50 hot dog, so might, so do, many people think working in a great kitchen offering other-than-high $10's of $10,000's in salary is just fine - because they get something of adequate value for their labor. Others don't. Others, such as yourself, want more money, so they seek other avenues.

I say, godspeed to everyone. No one is preventing anyone from making choices. We all impute value to what we do and decide what that is worth.

Edited April 8, 2007 by paul o' vendange (log)

FabulousFoodBabe · April 9, 2007

I live in the 'burbs. When I was actively looking for work, I had more than one chef refuse to speak with me once the GM got me in for an interview. I have great experience backed by formal education (or vice versa), and great references and people who will speak for me. I know it's because of my age -- and I don't look it. A few have come out and said so -- one person wasn't even interviewing me for a cooking job, and cited my age as a "concern -- we don't normally have older people working here." She was about my age, btw, and her Botox didn't help.*

Question: How many of you chefs are really looking for a 20something, preferably a male? You might say you're looking for anyone who wants to work and learn, but are you sure you don't eliminate some people, just because?

I admit that too many middle-aged women have the 'tudes that mess it up for the rest of us, but still. I've yet to hear a chef refusing to hire a 22 year old because s/he might show up late and hung over on Sunday morning.

(*Meow!)

Timh · April 10, 2007

I'll give anyone a shot, couldn't care less about age, in fact, I look for maturity above all else. As long as they show initiative and discipline. And I believe no one has any illusions about getting rich(monitarily speaking)But I will tell them that they will learn a ton, work in a creative environment, and as we grow , so will they. To some this is worth it. All I offer is the opportunity to improve ones cooking skills,of which you can do without and still make money in the before mentioned fast food chains, but I must be crazy 'cause I care about what I put out. (and I'm able to make a comfortable salary doing it.) so I am not ready to sell out. This is the life I chose, or that chose me.

Edited April 10, 2007 by Timh (log)

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