Tomato in Chinese Cuisine - Ketchup, tomato sauce

[Gary Soup]

This thread was inspired by a current similar one on the India board, thanks to Mongo Jones.

Ketchup is generally associated with hamburgers, fast food, and as a camouflage for other culinary atrocities. The highest per capita use of ketchup (as well as Jell-o) in the US is in Salt lake City, and I won't further elaborate on the relevance of that.

Like Mongo Jones' aunt in New Delhi, my wife had an honored place for ketchup in her pantry long before she left Shanghai. I think she considers jumbo bottles of Heinz ketchup as much a "find" as the 50-lb. bags of Calrose rice at Costco. She uses it some obvious ways, such as a base for the peculiar Shanghainese "Russian" (luosang) soup, and for the sauce that accompanies her version of "squirrel" fish. It's also used to give color while toning down the heat of some Sichuan style chili-based dishes for the Shanghainese palate, and I'm sure she sneaks it into some other sauces and bastes that are not obviously tomato-ey. The touch of sweetness (a hallmark of Shanghai cuisine generally) in ketchup seems to make it a good fit for her cooking.

Does any one else want to 'fess up on their use of ketchup in Chinese food or their knowledge on the use of the noble condiment in other regional Chinese cuisines?

[Jon Tseng]

mum always uses it in sweet and sour sauce, along with the juice trained from a tin of pineapples

also nb the use of condensed milk eg as a dip for deep-friend man tou bread in the morning

and the "sa-la" dipping sauce which is de rigeur with deep-fried prawn dim sum in london. basically consists of salad cream mixed with tinned fruit cocktail. goes very well with the crispy dumpling

cheerio

J

[herbacidal]

we used to use it and A-1 sauce to make the sauce for Peking Spare Ribs back when we owned a restaurant.

[eatingwitheddie]

There are a number of uses for catsup in the Chinese kitchen.

Sweet & Sour is an obvious use. It is often found in Szechuan dishes like shrimp or lobster with chile sauce ('kan sau'). I also use it as flavoring in a Hunan-style oxtail dish that is a favorite of mine. After it's been braised for 3 hours with star anise and chiles, it is really profoundly transformed.

One thing that is interesting to note is that in most cases there are also very good recipes for these same dishes that produce comparable results but omit the catsup. In sweet and sour dishes the red color can come from dried red candies (haw), while kan sau sauces which are flavored with lots of minced ginger, fermented sweet rice and chile paste can have the same flavor profile but with a brown rather than a red color.

[eatingwitheddie]

Ketchup is generally associated with hamburgers, fast food, and as a camouflage for other culinary atrocities.

Did you really think burgers are a culinary atrocity? You must be buying that off-brand stuff!

[Gary Soup]

Ketchup is generally associated with hamburgers, fast food, and as a camouflage for other culinary atrocities.

Did you really think burgers are a culinary atrocity? You must be buying that off-brand stuff!

Off-brand stuff? You mean I should stick with McDonalds?

[Pan]

and the "sa-la" dipping sauce which is de rigeur with deep-fried prawn dim sum in london. basically consists of salad cream mixed with tinned fruit cocktail. goes very well with the crispy dumpling

What's salad cream?

[Gary Soup]

and the "sa-la" dipping sauce which is de rigeur with deep-fried prawn dim sum in london.  basically consists of salad cream mixed with tinned fruit cocktail.  goes very well with the crispy dumpling

What's salad cream?

I think it's what's called in the US "Salad Dressing", i.e. the kind that looks like mayonnaise, comes in the same size and shape bottles as mayonnaise, but ain't mayonnaise.

[jo-mel]

A sauce for Stir Fried Shrimp (adapted from a recipe by Hugh Carpenter)

TOMATO FIREWORKS SAUCE

1 Tbsp. oil

2 tsp. minced garlic

2 tsp. minced ginger

2 scallions sliced into ¼ inch pieces

¼ cup sweet red pepper cut into ¼ inch pieces

2 Tbsp. sherry

2 Tbsp. tomato catsup (a bit more to taste)

1 tsp. curry paste

1 Tbsp. light soy sauce

1 Tbsp. oyster sauce

½ tsp. sugar

½ tsp. sesame oil

Heat the oil. ---- Add the garlic and ginger and cook just till fragrant. ---- Add the scallion and sweet pepper and stir/fry 15 seconds. ---- Add the rest of the sauce and bring to a boil.

[mongo_jones]

now, that sounds tasty. do you stir fry the shrimp separately and then stir them into the sauce? and what kind of curry paste are you referring to?

[jo-mel]

now, that sounds tasty. do you stir fry the shrimp separately and then stir them into the sauce? and what kind of curry paste are you referring to?

The shrimp are stir/fried just till translucent, then combined with the sauce.

There are a few types of Curry Paste -- some Thai and others Indian. There are red, green and yellow. I don't use the Thai ones----too hot. Hugh Carpenter recommends Koon Yick Wah Kee made in HongKong. He says that if you don't have a paste, double the amount of prepared curry powder.

The paste itself is robust and pleasant. The first brand I had was my favorite (not the Koon Yick) but I haven't been able to find it for a long time, and I even forget if it said Madras or Vindaloo on the label.

As you see from the recipe, the curry is not dominant --- just one of many flavors, so you can add the powder and it will be fine.

[mongo_jones]

okay, thanks. i'm indian so i'm aware that curry usually means something different to me than it does to pacific rim asians. my wife, who is korean, was flabbergasted, when i first cooked for her, by the fact that i didn't have any huge blocks of curry lying around the kitchen.

was patak's the brand you bought? they have both a madras and a vindaloo paste. (i have no idea what the hell a madras curry is, by the way, but that's a thread for the india forum.) i usually add a spoon of the vindaloo curry paste when i'm frying up spices for a keema (ground meat) dish--had no idea chinese cooks use these things too.

[jo-mel]

was patak's the brand you bought? they have both a madras and a vindaloo paste. (i have no idea what the hell a madras curry is, by the way, but that's a thread for the india forum.) i usually add a spoon of the vindaloo curry paste when i'm frying up spices for a keema (ground meat) dish--had no idea chinese cooks use these things too.

I can't remember the brand. Next time I'm in an Asian store I'll see if I can recognize the jar.

Curry powder has been around for a long time in Chinese cooking - but probably limited to border provinces. I just checked one of my Chinese Food Culture books, and there is an old Malay connection. As far as curry dishes are concerned, the first one that comes to mind is a stewed potato dish with a definite curry flavor and color. I've seen it on many menus and in those 'prepared food steam table' stores in Chinatowns. Singapore Noodles has curry as one of many flavors..

Hugh Carpenter is into fusion cooking and has good taste sense in his combinations. I think that 'fireworks sauce' is an example of it.

[fresco]

Didn't ketchup originate in China?

[jo-mel]

Didn't ketchup originate in China?

Not as the Tomato Ketchup as we know it.

In the Amoy dialect, the word for fish brine was something like 'koe tsiap'. It came to be used as a word for sauce other than fish brine in other areas of the world. In England, for centuries, the word 'ketchup' was used for a spicy mushroom sauce, acording to "The Scrutable Feast" by Lapidus. Other books have similar explanations, all stemming from the original words.

Tomato Ketchup is an American concoction --- and completed the circle when it is used in Chinese recipes, where it is often referred to as 'tomato sauce'.

[fresco]

Of course.

[Gary Soup]

Curry powder has been around for a long time in Chinese cooking - but probably limited to border provinces.

Curry was also in my wife's repertoire when she came to the US from Shanghai. Most often it was curried chicken (with potatoes) and she only uses yellow curry powder. It's probably something from the British influence during the International Settlement days. Likewise, the ketchup could have been an American influence from the same period. That's one reason I was fishing for other people's experience with ketchup in Chinese cuisine.

[mongo_jones]

Tomato Ketchup is an American concoction --- and completed the circle when it is used in Chinese recipes, where it is often referred to as 'tomato sauce'.

in a related note, ketchup is also called tomato sauce in india. in fact, i remember a new tomato sauce launched in north india in the mid 80s had in its ad jingle the line "ketchup hota kaddu bhara"--meaning "ketchups are full of pumpkin"--i don't know if their established competitors did add a lot of red pumpkin to their ketchups but the idea was to associate competitors' brands with the word "ketchup" and the pumpkin connection, while their own brand was to be the true "tomato sauce". now, if i could only remember the name of the brand.

nestle, under their maggi imprint, markets a whole range of flavored/spiced ketchups in india. indian stores in the u.s usually carry the two best variants: the hot and sweet sauce, and the chilli-garlic sauce (both red and ketchupy in consistency). i'd recommend them both highly to ketchup aficionados.

[Gary Soup]

Not as the Tomato Ketchup as we know it.

In the Amoy dialect, the word for fish brine was something like 'koe tsiap'.  It came to be used as a word for sauce other than fish brine in other areas of the world. In England, for centuries, the word 'ketchup' was used for a spicy mushroom sauce, acording to "The Scrutable Feast" by Lapidus. Other books have similar explanations, all stemming from the original words.

Tomato Ketchup is  an American concoction --- and completed the circle when it is used in Chinese recipes, where it is often referred to as 'tomato sauce'

A contrary view is presented on the YellowBridg website, to wit:

********************

Ketchup

茄汁

Tomato sauce

(Via Cantonese ke jap). Most dictionaries actually list the source of the word as being a Chinese or Malay word meaning fish sauce. They ignore the more direct route: the Cantonese word which sounds like ketchup and which actually means tomato sauce. Duh. (In mandarin, ketchup is called 番茄醬)

********************

Of course, ke jap could also be an after-the-fact construction to represent the sound of the western "ketchup" (the characters shown as representing ke jap literally mean "eggplant juice", I believe).

[jo-mel]

I bookmarked that "Yellowbridge" site. Fun stuff!

This is another explanation for 'Ketchup/catsup': (too long to type or copy/paste)

http://www.nickyee.com/ponder/ketchup.html

Anderson's "The Food of China" mentions that "Tomatoes were introduced from the West in the 1500s and promptly named fan chieh(barbarian eggplant), their similarity to eggplant noted from the start.

Anderson also goes into the 'catsup' word.

The search sources on this subject abound. I love it! There are also links to the history of American Tomato Ketchup: (this is just one)

http://www.exploratorium.edu/cooking/pickles/ketchup.html

(What do you use to get your Chinese characters to transpose? When I bought this particular computer, I tried to carry over my old programs, but they wouldn't work. I'm looking for something to download so I can get the actual character and not the internet version.)

[Gary Soup]

(What  do you use to get your Chinese characters to transpose?  When I bought this particular computer, I tried to carry over my old programs, but they wouldn't work. I'm looking for something to download so I can get the actual character and not the internet version.)

I'm not sure what you're referring to. With Windows XP and IE5, it's pretty much automated (just be sure you have Chinese listed under "languages" and a font selected for Chinese under "font" in the "Tools/Internet Options" dialog). I just cut and pasted from the source website and voila! You can also do your own inputting using PinYin via Windows if you have Chinese Language Support enabled and the appropriate IME installed.

If you've been using an add-in like Chinese Partner, Chinese Star or RichWin, forget it. None are compatible with the latest versions of Windows, and probably won't be upgraded since Bill Gates' human wave of programmers have taken up the task of providing similar capabilities for "free" (as if there was such a thing as a free lunch).

BTW, "fan" officially just means "foreign" (which of course was previously associated with barbarism). The prefix "yang", which carries the sense of both "foreign" and "modern" is also used, at least in Mandarin and Shanghainese, as in "yangcong" (foreign scallion) for onion, and "yangshanyu" (foreign yam) for potato.

[skchai]

Another interesting side-fact is that "ketjap" without any qualifiers nowadays refers to "soy sauce" in Malay / Indonesian. Fish sauce isn't really used that often any more. "Ketjap manis" refers to sweet spiced soy sauce, and is the most common type.

[Pan]

Another interesting side-fact is that "ketjap" without any qualifiers nowadays refers to "soy sauce" in Malay / Indonesian. Fish sauce isn't really used that often any more. "Ketjap manis" refers to sweet spiced soy sauce, and is the most common type.

Kicap (or kecap) manis is most common only in Indonesia, not Malaysia, and fish sauce is indeed used often enough (though not as often as shrimp sauce, which is called belacan or terasi). Fish sauce is called budu in Malaysia.

[jo-mel]

(Gary Soup)

I'm not sure what you're referring to.  With Windows XP and IE5, it's pretty much automated (just be sure you have Chinese listed under "languages" and a font selected for Chinese under "font" in the "Tools/Internet Options" dialog).  I just cut and pasted from the source website and voila! You can also do your own inputting using PinYin via Windows if you have Chinese Language Support enabled and the appropriate IME installed.~~~~~~~~~~~~

BTW, "fan" officially just means "foreign" (which of course was previously associated with barbarism).  The prefix "yang", which carries the sense of both "foreign" and "modern" is also used, at least in Mandarin and Shanghainese, as in "yangcong" (foreign scallion) for onion, and "yangshanyu" (foreign yam) for potato.

The add-in I had was ?win-star? or something like that, and as you said --it wasn't compatible with Windows XP. I just added all the Chinese language selections in the 'tool' list, and it worked when I tested it in my own e-mail. Let me see if it works here: (it worked in the preview)

西瓜 - Xi gua -- watermelon

(I know of the 'fan' (fan cai) and 'yang' (yang bai cai). I guess 'xi' can be added to the list. Fascinating language!!!)

[skchai]

Kicap (or kecap) manis is most common only in Indonesia, not Malaysia, and fish sauce is indeed used often enough (though not as often as shrimp sauce, which is called belacan or terasi). Fish sauce is called budu in Malaysia.

Thanks for the clarification! Unsweetened kecap / ketjap is used quite a bit in Malaysian cookery, particularly in Chinese and Nonya dishes. Kecap Manis is rarer but is used in things like Malaysian satay marinade.

Regarding budu - I'm curious - could you provide more information on it? Is it hard like blachan / trassi? Or thin like the fish sauces of the rest of SE Asia? Or pasty like bago`ong from the Philippines? Any recipes? Thanks.