Where to get the haute-cuisine experience, cheap

[Nathan]

I think trying to call it haute on the cheap isn't quite on the mark: what's different about what David Chang is targeting is that he's going after the foodies, not the expense account diners that most haute cuisine restaurants are selling to.  He's created an environment that is catering to the discovery and enjoyment of new tastes and ingredients, and he's stripped out everything that does not support that discovery.

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I think alwang has nailed it.

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I second that

[Sneakeater]

as for Room4Dessert...Goldfarb is pretty solidly in the "molecular" camp (indeed, he any Wylie were just presenting (as the only Americans) at the big "molecular" food conference in Milan)

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He wasn't saying Room 4 Dessert isn't molecular.

He was saying that its being molecular can't be the reason it's "New Paradigm".

[Nathan]

as for Room4Dessert...Goldfarb is pretty solidly in the "molecular" camp (indeed, he any Wylie were just presenting (as the only Americans) at the big "molecular" food conference in Milan)

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He wasn't saying Room 4 Dessert isn't molecular.

He was saying that its being molecular can't be the reason it's "New Paradigm".

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I just reread..you're correct.

[oakapple]

I think alwang has nailed it.

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I think he's also nailed that there is no new paradigm --- just a one-of-a-kind very good restaurant. There is no other example that everyone agrees with.

[Sneakeater]

Only cuz he hasn't been to Room 4 Dessert.

[Nathan]

Only cuz he hasn't been to Room 4 Dessert.

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also cause he only ordered one non-Japanese item at Bouley Upstairs.

[oakapple]

Only cuz he hasn't been to Room 4 Dessert.

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also cause he only ordered one non-Japanese item at Bouley Upstairs.

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What he would have thought had he ordered differently is unknown. What he'd think of a restaurant he's never been to is unknown. I've been to R4D, and for one thing, it failes the "cheap" test. For dessert, it's on the expensive side.

[Sneakeater]

He didn't mean "cheap" as in "cheap".

[alwang]

Only cuz he hasn't been to Room 4 Dessert.

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also cause he only ordered one non-Japanese item at Bouley Upstairs.

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For the record, both the lobster and the oysters were non-Japanese. I guess you could argue that the oysters were an appetizer, but given that they were more expensive than most of the entrees, i'd say it's kind of hard to make an appetizer/entree distinction in that sort of place.

I'm not sure what I would have ordered that would have given me a better feel for what Upstairs can do. The Italian dishes sounded good, but pretty traditional. Ditto the meat dishes (burger, steak, roast chicken, etc.). The fish entrees sounded interesting, but if they were new-paradigm, it would have to be explained to me. Actually, for me, the Japanese dishes were the highlight of the evening, and they were closest to the spirit of this new paradigm, in that the menu of non-sushi Japanese offerings changes a lot from day-to-day (we walked by and checked out the menu on Saturday), while the rest of the menu is fairly static.

One other thing I'll mention about the oysters. The dish was supposed to be half bluepoints and half kumamoto, but the waiter did tell us that they only had bluepoints for the evening, and we were fine with that. In hindsight, that raspberry dressing that I wasn't fond of might have paired better with the sweeter kumamoto. I don't blame Upstairs, as they fully informed us up front, but I have a suspicion that if a similar situation arose at Ssam Bar, they simply wouldn't offer that dish at all: just a little more emphasis about the right ingredient for each dish.

-al

[Nathan]

the argument for Upstairs being new Paradigm is that the main courses (which are mostly seafood) (I'm not familiar with the Italian menu) are seriously haute, but served in very downscale surroundings and atmosphere, with prices to match. I think the open kitchen is part of it as well.

[Sneakeater]

FWIW, I find the Italian menu to be comparable to A Voce.

[Fat Guy]

For those of you with access to Crain's New York Business, I did a roundup of "haute cheap" restaurants in this week's issue (March 19, 2007). It's on pages 31 and 32.

[Nathan]

on the "New Paradigm" topic, the last paragraph here is on-point:

http://oad.typepad.com/oa/2007/04/how_to_spend_a_.html

[LPShanet]

Seems I've missed quite the interesting discussion on this string till now. While I agree with most of what's been said on the chain (Momo-Ssam being yummy and innovative, Degustation hit and miss and less yummy, but good, etc.), I'm going to throw a few things out there for the sake of the history of this trend/paradigm.

If you're a global food geek, you'd probably point to the start of this trend having its roots in Spain rather than NY, specifically in the Basque region, and even more specifically in San Sebastian. If you've done a tapeo there, and had the myriad pintxos inspired by haute cuisine you know what I'm talking about. Walk into a tiny barroom, stand at the counter, and order a glass of wine (txacoli, of course) or beer and some tiny interpretation of serious haute cuisine presented on a tiny round of bread or small plate. At a few places (La Cuchara de San Telmo, Patio de Ramuntxo) they even refer to the style as "alta cocina en miniatura", or haute cuisine in miniature. While the Spaniards in this region were reinventing modern haute cuisine at places like Arzak and El Bulli several years back, the pintxos places, which are the heart and soul of this region's cooking, were a major part of this. This is obviously LONG before any such places popped up in NYC.

But even in NYC, there were progenitors to the idea of trying to offer an acclaimed chef's haute cuisine to the masses (i.e. at more casual places, without reservations and at a lower price point.) It's amazing to me that no one mentioned Kitchen 22, which was certainly one of the first places to offer at least part of this formula we've been discussing. Admittedly, it wasn't all that good or innovative, but it certainly paved the way for the ideas we're discussing, in terms of the NY market. And at the time, Charlie Palmer's modern American food at Aureole was as current/haute as any in NY, even if it no longer seems so. (Of course, putting the trend on the Upper West Side (via Kitchen 82) quickly killed any vestige of hipness it may have had, as the Upper West Side will reliably do.)

Also, there has been little mention of Chickalicious, which brough the dessert only thing to the area quite a while before R4D. While the actual dishes aren't as modern/experimental, it certainly wasn't anything like the standard cheesecake, creme brulee, chocolate molten bomb dessert menu that most places offered at the time (and still do). Some of the items were (and are) fairly creative and "haute".

To add a note to the note, Chickalicious and R4D also owe their concept to an earlier Spanish cousin: Barcelona's Espai Sucre. This all-dessert restaurant offers entire tasting menu dinners made up solely of many different notes of dessert in a fairly casual setting. Although it opened quite a while back, it is still even more creative (and many would say even more delicious) than Chickalicious or R4D, both of which I personally quite like.

Also, just for the record, although Degustation isn't as good or innovative on many levels as Momo-Ssam, I think it does fit the attempted haute measure, because the food mirrors a major trend in current haute cuisine: the deconstruction and reinterpretation of traditional ethnic dishes. While the menu items sound like simple classic Spanish items (croquetas, etc.), the actual products, whether delicious or not, are actually post-modern interpretations of those standards and the presentation/plating quite ambitious/haute. Knife and Fork is more questionable, but probably fits in the general category this chain mentions. Sadly, it's not better than it is. Another place worth considering, although it's not a textbook example of the trend, is Dressler in Williamsburg, where the food is very much like the modern American fare at fancier places, but served in a neighborhood bar/brasserie setting. They also echo the focus on fresh, market-driven ingredients, and pretty, modern presentations.

I stand ready to be flamed.

I think trying to call it haute on the cheap isn't quite on the mark: what's different about what David Chang is targeting is that he's going after the foodies, not the expense account diners that most haute cuisine restaurants are selling to.  He's created an environment that is catering to the discovery and enjoyment of new tastes and ingredients, and he's stripped out everything that does not support that discovery.

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I think alwang has nailed it.

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I second that

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[Fat Guy]

Thanks for pulling together all those strands of information, LPShanet. Surely, the new paradigm owes a debt of gratitude to tapas in general and modern haute tapas specifically.

I'd say that in North America the other debt is to the East, to the sushi bar as well as to modern izakaya restaurants. Vancouver has played host to several trend-markers in this regard, starting with the first Bin restaurant in 1998 and moving through the more recent izakaya craze. When you look at a place like Momofuku, which so effortlessly juxtaposes Western and Eastern haute tapas styles, it has something much closer to a Pacific Rim/West Coast vibe than anything identifiably Spanish. Although, I wouldn't totally saddle it with a Pacific Rim designation, because it is so firmly rooted in the East Village -- New York is very good at making imported trends uniquely its own.

On the dessert front, I'm not sure how well Chikalicious fits into the trend. I see Chikalicious as an improved version of what came before: Finale in Boston, Sugar in Chicago, etc. I'm pretty sure that Finale, at least, predates Espai Sucre, but it's just not the same species of restaurant, and I don't really think Chikalicious is either. Espai Sucre is quite a bit more ambitious than anything I've tried -- it's attempting to create dessert meals, and also using a healthy dose of molecular gastronomy in the process. I'm sure that Espai Sucre was a direct influence on Room 4 Dessert, perhaps not so much on Chikalicious.

But Room 4 Dessert, like Momofuku, is as much about a moment as about the food it serves. If one doesn't view these places as complete experiences (and I'm not accusing you of this at all, but rather some other folks who seem just not to get what's going on here), there's no way to comprehend that moment. It's the whole experience of Room 4 Dessert or Momofuku, especially all the interaction with the servers and cooks (in some ways Noodle Bar is more of the moment than Ssam because of its open design), not to mention the customers to your left and right, that make these places what they are.

[Nathan]

both of these posts were fascinating and well-argued.

I guess I don't have anything to add to them.

edit: I dined at Bouley Upstairs last night....and it really is a different sort of place...there is something going on here....

Edited April 17, 2007 by Nathan (log)

[Sneakeater]

What's going on there is that it's a restaurant-beater. I know I keep saying this, but if you can have, say, their veal chop for $21, it becomes hard to justify eating anywhere else.

[freshherbs]

i'll throw kyotofu out there...

[BryanZ]

More so that Chika, less so than R4D. Kyotofu is less haute than it is just new age Japanese.

[ned]

To add a note to the note, Chickalicious and R4D also owe their concept to an earlier Spanish cousin: Barcelona's Espai Sucre.  T

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Funny that you mention this as the first ones to point out this debt are Don and Chika.

[Fat Guy]

Interesting. I just haven't gotten that vibe from Chikalicious. Maybe I don't fully grasp the place.

A few East-meets-West points of interest in the new paradigm places:

- Upstairs has a sushi bar

- Degustation is attached to Jewel Bako, a Japanese restaurant

- Momo-Ssam serves country hams, Noodle Bar serves grits, etc.

- If we're including Chikalicious, of course Chika is Japanese

[oakapple]

Count Grub Street's Mister Cutlets as the latest one to perceive a trend where there is none. Yesterday, he called the James Beard Awards "a Referendum on Haute Cusine."

And after David Chang won the Rising Star Chef award, Cutlets gushed, "last night’s ceremony officially ushered in a new era in fine dining."

Oh yeah? Well, in the "Best Chef: New York City" category, Chanterelle's David Waltuck was the winner, beating Wylie Dufresne, among others.

In the "Outstanding Pastry Chef" category, Le Bernardin's Michael Laskonis was the winner, beating Room 4 Dessert's Will Goldfarb, among others.

For "Best Restauranteur," it was Thomas Keller, who is nearly as "haute" as they come.

For "Best New Restaurant," it was L'Atelier de Joël Robuchon, beating "Momofuku Ssäm Bar," among others.

Obviously David Chang has heartily earned his award, and I congratulate him. But I hardly see it as haute cuisine's death knell, considering that the old school prevailed in four other categories. (I am counting only those categories where the winner was a chef with business in New York.)

Of course, it is wonderful that a place like Momofuku Ssäm Bar exists. But why must the success of a new kind of restaurant be heralded as the demise of others?

Edited May 8, 2007 by oakapple (log)

[Dave H]

Exactly: this year's James Beard selections only confirm how conservative they are. David Chang for Rising Chef would have been a great selection two years ago, but now it's not only oddly late, but also a somewhat inappropriate to recognize Ssam Bar which is actually a collaboration of several chefs. Noting that Grant Achatz is the best chef in the "Great Lakes" region is the sort of no-brainer that only calls attention to the failure to award Alinea Best New Restaurant in its day. Similarly passing up Ssam Bar for Best New Restaurant--which is the much more suitable award--in favor of the latest outpost in a four-year old chain restaurant. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe L'Atelier's menu has not substantially changed since 2003.

Also: Chanterelle?????!?!?

[weinoo]

So, reviving this thread, I'm wondering if places like Graffiti, nicely reviewed here by FG and others, and Bu'n Soho, are possibilities for the list? The new Noodle Bar? Kitchen Counter at Beacon?

Or, are they not haute enough? They (mostly) seem to be cheap enough.

[oakapple]

So, reviving this thread, I'm wondering if places like Graffiti, nicely reviewed here by FG and others, and Bu'n Soho, are possibilities for the list? The new Noodle Bar? Kitchen Counter at Beacon?

Or, are they not haute enough?  They (mostly) seem to be cheap enough.

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From the beginning, I thought that the criteria — both as to hautness and to cheapness — were somewhat arbitrary.