The Sourdough Starter Topic

[devlin]

In contrast to others I do everything (except for retarding in the fridge) at ambient temps.

←

Actually, I do it the same way.

I have a retarder, but I haven't used it yet, although I expect to soon.

[astartenyny]

i've been experimenting with sourdough too. here are some links to my wee video documentary of the process:

i've now been making 2 loaves a week for the past month. have been experimenting with different blends of rye and wholemeal. when i just use strong white flour i find it turns out really spongy -- lots of small to medium air bubbles inside.

i had to bin last week's loaves because i left them to rise for too long in a very warm room and forgot about them. when i came back the loaves were spilling over the tins and already had a bit of a crust on them. i tried baking them anyways to see how they'd turn out. YUCK!

the recipe i used came from Moro cookbook.

[plk]

I've had great success with the starter instructions in the KAF Baker's companion. Very simple ingredients and process. Very loosely summarized, this is the method:

Day 1: Combine warm water (4 oz) + rye flour (3.5 oz) + 1/8 t molasses.

Day 2: Discard half, then add rye flour and water (same quantities as above).

Day 3: Discard half, then add 4 oz water and 4.25 oz AP flour

Days 4, 5, 6: Same as above

Day 7 (or when established): discard all but 4 oz, add 8oz warm water + 8 oz AP flour

I really like this method because I don't have to go shopping to get anything, and it's just dead easy. Our house stays pretty cold even in the spring (about 60 degrees), so it might have taken a couple of extra days, but it works great. There is definitely enough yeast in rye flour to get a starter going.

I made bagels last week with this starter, using the formula in the Bread Baker's Apprentice, but using this starter as the sponge. If I'm not baking anything, I keep it in the fridge and feed it once a week. If I am baking, I'll take it out of the fridge and up to room temp and try to feed it twice before using it. If I don't, I'll inevitably end up with a flattish loaf (I usually just make a big round miche, so it spreads and doesn't get a good oven spring if the starter isn't really active).

Edited March 28, 2007 by plk (log)

[hummingbirdkiss]

that is the recipe I just used..I bombed with it

....thanks so much for all your wonderful advice

but for some reason I am just not getting this and it is very disheartening!

I will try again someday I am sure ..

[Lkfarkas]

*sob* My 22-month old just got my starter off the counter & dumped it all over the floor. Fortunately, I salvaged what was left in the container. Arggggggggghhhhh!

[KitchenQueen]

This thread got me started. I tried it. Some places say feed every 24 hours, some say 12. I've used KA bread flour.

Mine is now 5-6 days old. Lots of hooch every morning and night. I've been feeding every AM and late night.

Stupid question of the month.

How do I tell when it's right? I have no idea if it's wonderful or garbage.

Thanks.

[Jon Savage]

Stupid question of the month. 

How do I tell when it's right?  I have no idea if it's wonderful or garbage.

Thanks.

←

Well if you feed it and it gets nice and frothy then it will at least leaven. If it seems active then just bake a loaf or two - that will give you some idea of how it will work out.

Don't forget that most wild yeast/sourdough cultures need more time to rise than commercial yeast . . . plenty of HOWTOS upthread.

Heck you are probably discarding enough starter when you feed to make bread already

Enjoy!

Edited April 6, 2007 by 6ppc (log)

[KitchenQueen]

Stupid question of the month. 

How do I tell when it's right?  I have no idea if it's wonderful or garbage.

Thanks.

←

Well if you feed it and it gets nice and frothy then it will at least leaven. If it seems active then just bake a loaf or two - that will give you some idea of how it will work out.

I don't gots frothy..I gots disinterested with a few bubbles here and there.

Kinda like a bad wedding night where the bride realizes she goofed bigtime.

Is this stuff supposed to grow, or just sit there? Should I switch to 24 hour feedings?

Now I'm ticked and determined to make it work. It smells like it should though.

[Jon Savage]

I don't gots frothy..I gots disinterested with a few bubbles here and there.

Kinda like a bad wedding night where the bride realizes she goofed bigtime.

Is this stuff supposed to grow, or just sit there?  Should I switch to 24 hour feedings?

Now I'm ticked and determined to make it work.  It smells like it should though.

←

How hydrated is your starter? Mine is somewhere between a poolish and a sponge.

If it gets bubbles and smells right no harm in trying it out - it is not like you are risking a substantial amount of time or money if the bread does not come out.

--edit great simile BTW.

Edited April 6, 2007 by 6ppc (log)

[KitchenQueen]

Wet and pourable. I pour out one cup of "whatever this is" and feed with half cup of bread flour and half cup of water. Should I go to 24 hour feedings?

Teeney bubbles, but not growing in any way ,shape ,or form.

I'm glad you like my simile. A week from now with this sludge I'll have some you will NOT believe.

I'm a hardhead determined little sucker.

[Jon Savage]

Wet and pourable.  I pour out one cup of "whatever this is" and feed with half cup of bread flour and half cup of water. Should I go to 24 hour feedings?

Teeney bubbles, but not growing in any way ,shape ,or form.

I'm glad you like my simile. A week from now  with this sludge I'll have some you will  NOT believe.

I'm a hardhead determined little sucker.

←

try taking a cup of starter (next time you feed) add a couple cups flour, water as needed to make a fairly wet dough (salt as appropriate), knead - retard in fridge overnight bake after allowing to rise @ ambient for 6-8 hours. I think you might be pleased w/ the result. This would make 1 boule 2 baguette more or less.

--assumes ambient 65Fish... if warmer/cooler then adjust proofing time accordingly. You *don't* want to over proof.

Edited April 6, 2007 by 6ppc (log)

[KitchenQueen]

Ok, I'll give it a try, probably not till the weekend. I'll let you know what happens.

What the hell, if I make them long and slim, the Little League neighborhood kids can use them if they're not edible.

Oh yeah, should I change to 24 hour feedings or keep it at 12?

[Jon Savage]

Oh yeah, should I change to 24 hour feedings or keep it at 12?

←

For me once a starter makes good bread I keep in the fridge, use as needed, refresh/feed on each use leave on the counter and back to the reefer just before it peaks, rinse and repeat.

I probably do 2 batches of dough week, gotta make some more tomorrow since tonight's foccacia used the last from the fridge.

In other words... I don't know. There are probably more opinions on the care and feeding of starters than actual starter cultures in existence. In my case it was about reading up on a zillion different methods and coming up with something that works for me. The Bread Baker's Apprentice referenced upthread was most helpful as well.

[devlin]

For me, the most useful text on feeding and keeping a sourdough culture is Ed Wood's Classic Sourdoughs.

I've got a lot of bread books, including Reinhart and Silverton, etc., but for me, Wood's text offers the most extensive and comprehensive explanation for how to handle sourdough cultures. With the exception maybe of Silverton, the others offer sort of cursory help, and I kept finding myself frustrated and despairing after trying to figure everything out and experimenting with their suggestions.

By the time I got to Wood, I'd played around with the stuff quite a lot, and so that surely helped, but his book was like finally finding the key.

[pork]

--Note I PM'd this to hummingbirdkiss but decided to post it anyway hoping it might be of help to others; if it is too redundant then (a helpful mod) can delete.

I am going to try this starting tonight. Made a starter this week. Looks lively. Smells a little more vinegary that I thought it would, but we shall see.

[Jon Savage]

--Note I PM'd this to hummingbirdkiss but decided to post it anyway hoping it might be of help to others; if it is too redundant then (a helpful mod) can delete.

I am going to try this starting tonight. Made a starter this week. Looks lively. Smells a little more vinegary that I thought it would, but we shall see.

←

Looking forward to how it works out for you...

On that note must make another gallon ziploc of dough; we are almost out.

[Sergio]

I have absolutely no experience with sourdough starters so this question may seem very simple to someone who knows better. I just acquired a starter for a local bakery and I followed their instructions of taking it out of the fridge, reserving about 1/4 cup, adding 1/2 cup lukewarm water and 2/3 cup bread flour and leaving it out for 48 hours. You repeat this and then immediately put it in the fridge.

I tried making another jar of starter (to keep in another kitchen), but I guess my room today was a bit more warm that usual and when I came back from class I noticed the starter mix was bubbling much more than usual. Actually, it had grown to the top of the jar it was in (3/4 liter French jar). It deflated to the normal amount when I mixed it a bit with a spoon. So I am wondering if these 7 or 8 hours in a warmer than room temperature environment would in any way hurt the starter, or alter its nature?

I am also wondering if I could just take some starter from the fridge and start anew? I just fed the other one a few days ago and the instructions are that I can keep it in the fridge for one month without feeding. I am wondering if it is too soon to re-feed?

[devlin]

I have absolutely no experience with sourdough starters so this question may seem very simple to someone who knows better. I just acquired a starter for a local bakery and I followed their instructions of taking it out of the fridge, reserving about 1/4 cup, adding 1/2 cup lukewarm water and 2/3 cup bread flour and leaving it out for 48 hours. You repeat this and then immediately put it in the fridge.

I tried making another jar of starter (to keep in another kitchen), but I guess my room today was a bit more warm that usual and when I came back from class I noticed the starter mix was bubbling much more than usual. Actually, it had grown to the top of the jar it was in (3/4 liter French jar). It deflated to the normal amount when I mixed it a bit with a spoon. So I am wondering if these 7 or 8 hours in a warmer than room temperature environment would in any way hurt the starter, or alter its nature?

I am also wondering if I could just take some starter from the fridge and start anew? I just fed the other one a few days ago and the instructions are that I can keep it in the fridge for one month without feeding. I am wondering if it is too soon to re-feed?

←

The values you indicate for feeding seem a little peculiar to me, but I suppose it might work.

No, it's not too soon to feed again. I refresh (feed) mine at least once a day, sometimes twice, but I suspect I use mine more often than you do.

My best advice to you at this point is that you start by reading through this entire thread and decide which advice you think might work best, and then experiment, because a number of us have already outlined our own theories here on precisely your question.

And again, I'd advise getting a good book to help (such as Woods, noted above).

[edited for scewey spelling....]

Edited April 23, 2007 by devlin (log)

[glennbech]

I just have a comment to Kitchenqueen's starter that wasn't frothy. I would be very reluctant to bake with a non-frothy starter. If I am not wrong, the froth is the work of the yeast, and one of my "health" signs.

If my starter only has some small and large bubbles, but no froth I usually add a tablespoon of instant yeast , and bake it as a "mixed race bread". It Rises like a charm and still has that sour taste.

It's important to minimize ones losses and frustratons :-)

[Sergio]

The values you indicate for feeding seem a little peculiar to me, but I suppose it might work.

No, it's not too soon to feed again. I refresh (feed) mine at least once a day, sometimes twice, but I suspect I use mine more often than you do.

My best advice to you at this point is that you start by reading through this entire thread and decide which advice you think might work best, and then experiment, because a number of us have already outlined our own theories here on precisely your question.

And again, I'd advise getting a good book to help (such as Woods, noted above).

[edited for scewey spelling....]

←

The values I gave are the ones based on the book of the store I got the starter from (The Cheeseboard Collective Works) and thus I wanted to stick to the recommended protocol. However silly it sounds, my only concern is keeping their 30 year old Bay Area starter alive, the specific technique for doing so really matters not.

I have another semi-Sourdough related question. Is it okay to let the bread rise in the same KitchenAid metal bowl you kneaded the dough in? I have heard that metal is not the best place to do such rising, however, some recipes make no mention of changing bowls.

[gfron1]

A while back I thought I read somewhere that you can make a starter from juniper berries. Now that I'm ready to get going, I've searched and searched but haven't found any reference to this method/recipe. Has anyone heard of this?

[Natho]

A while back I thought I read somewhere that you can make a starter from juniper berries.  Now that I'm ready to get going, I've searched and searched but haven't found any reference to this method/recipe.  Has anyone heard of this?

←

Well, if you skim back 6 pages to the start of this thread you may find that you have already found that which you are searching for...

[gfron1]

Thanks - I did find it a couple of weeks ago, and have my juniper starter going. There's quite a story behind it (think bears, lightening storms, and Native American spirits - but that'll come later). I'll be posting once I get closer to actually using it.

[hummingbirdkiss]

gfron is it the starter bubbling? I am excited to hear you try this ..I just used half water and half flour then dropped the white coated berries in ..I did it with the junipers I found in AZ in the high regions and I am sure NM junipers are similar ...

I missed this and am excited to hear how it comes out as we do not have the similar powdery white coated (yeast coated) berries here

I have to feed my starters today ..I gave up on my bread being "Artisan" looking and my holes never were acheived like I wanted them to be ..but thanks to the help on this thread you guys got me from average bread to fantastic bread and I am happy ..so what if it is not exactly what I started wanting ..it sure is more than I thought I could ever produce

so thank you all very much ..I love my Pacific NW sourdough bread ..and so does everyone who tries it!!!!

you never loose if you try that is for sure!!!

Edited July 20, 2007 by hummingbirdkiss (log)

[gfron1]

It started bubbling after two days (that was 12 days ago), and after six days I pulled the berries out since it seemed to be going well. I also started feeding it. After I pulled the berries I thought I had killed it since the bubbling stopped, so I ignored it for a few days feeding it only once more and its bubbling again just not as much. So now I'm just being patient...feeding it and loving on it. I'll post a full report when that first loaf is made. Thanks for tips!