Once and for all what the heck is fuzzy logic ...

[Fat Guy]

I've commented on this before on various rice cooker topics, but never heard a satisfactory answer. Can anybody explain what the heck fuzzy logic has to do with cooking rice?

[Domestic Goddess]

Well, I;ve seen those fancy-schmancy rice cookers and they have more than one function. You can use them to steam/cook other food items than rice. I've see fuzzy logic rice cookers cook sweet potatoes, corn, soybean/natto, etc. The fuzzy logic is encrypted for the one-touch button function for the selection of the different food/cooking process.

[sanrensho]

Here's a straightforward explanation from an SFGate article about fuzzy logic rice cookers:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...FDGNB3FHP81.DTL

Rice cooks in basically four stages: It stands in water, it boils, it absorbs (the "steamed stage") and then it rests. Heat is accelerated or decelerated for each stage and in different ways for each variety of rice.

In other words, the fuzzy logic cooker does what a real cook does, using its senses and intuition when it is cooking rice, watching and intervening when necessary to turn heat up or down, and reacting to the kind of rice in the pot, the volume and the time needed.

But IH cookers still produce a better cooked rice...

Edited February 8, 2007 by sanrensho (log)

[Joe Blowe]

But IH cookers still produce a better cooked rice.

Why? Please elaborate.

[Hiroyuki]

Fuzzy!? Funny, it's such a forgotten word! It was a buzzword in 1990. Now it's much of a thing of the past. I googled and found that the fuzzy theory is still applied to some appliances and systems, but not to rice cookers any longer.

Matsushita introduced the industry's first fuzzy rice cooker in 1990.

History of rice cookers (sorry, Japanese only)

According to this, Matsushita released an IH rice cooker two years earlier, in 1988.

[jackal10]

I think i means analog in advertising speak.

Normal logic is binary: yes/no or true/false.

Fuzzy logic has more states: true, don't know, false, for 3 value or true maybe, don't know, maybe not, false for five state,

The limit is an infinite number of states or probability, typical of Baysian combinatorics

Further complications are belief systems, where you have multile values: a probability that a proposition is true, and the probablilty of the belief that your estimate of the probability is correct and so on...

I think for rice cookers it means more like analog temperature control than on/off

[sanrensho]

But IH cookers still produce a better cooked rice.

Why? Please elaborate.

←

It just does. If you cook rice frequently you will find that an IH cooker produces a firmer rice with the desirable bite. This has also been shown in the Japanese testing results I've seen.

As several people can attest to in the rice cooker thread, once you cook rice in an IH cooker there is no going back.

[Joe Blowe]

It just does.

Ah, thank you for the elaboration.

I do cook rice frequently in a "fuzzy" rice cooker, and I would love for somebody to actually explain how the actual results differ between fuzzy and IH.

Unfortunately, the more I search around and read consumer testimonials, the more I think some people just got sucked into the hype...

[sanrensho]

It just does.

Ah, thank you for the elaboration.

I do cook rice frequently in a "fuzzy" rice cooker, and I would love for somebody to actually explain how the actual results differ between fuzzy and IH.

Setting aside your sarcastic comment, I did explain how the actual results differ. Read my post again.

an IH cooker produces a firmer rice with the desirable bite. This has also been shown in the Japanese testing results I've seen.

[sanrensho]

Getting back to the topic at hand, here's some info from Zojirushi on how fuzzy logic works:

http://www.zojirushi.com/ourproducts/how_a...owork_rice.html

My layman's interpretation is that "fuzzy logic" basically equates to microcomputer control with built-in variables to adjust and control the cooking of rice. As opposed to a straightforward program with no variables programmed in.

[helenjp]

Fuzzy logic is still used - if anything, it's become taken for granted. It became a buzzword for household appliances probably because it was the first big advance in computing that occurred after microcomputers started to become common in household appliances (i.e. after they became small enough). (Can you tell that my 14 year old has been studying microcomputer applications all year ? ).

If it is not emphasized in IH technology, that may be because the IH cookers are all about high heat and attaining the desired temperature profile with maximum stability, rather than constantly whuppin' the temperature back into shape with minor adjustments. (The cookers do make minor adjustments, it's just no longer a sales point, because it's no longer quite so necessary or desirable).

[Joe Blowe]

...I did explain how the actual results differ. Read my post again.

an IH cooker produces a firmer rice with the desirable bite. This has also been shown in the Japanese testing results I've seen.

My point is that it's all a bit subjective, isn't it? Until there is some rigorously scientific double-blind-taste-test-death-match between IH and Fuzzy (do you have a link to the Japanese taste test?), it's all just a matter of opinion. You like the results from your IH, and I like the results from my Fuzzy (I do use the "Harder" menu option (and sometimes "Softer") on my cooker).

But, for the record, if and when I have the chance to sample rice from an IH cooker and if it's noticeably better, I'll buy one in a heartbeat. Good rice is good rice, price be damned...

[Hiroyuki]

I'd like to point out that fuzzy has something to do with software whereas IH has something to to with hardware. I looked for rice cookers that incorporate both and found one commercial one:

http://national.jp/appliance/product/cook_biz/sn_at540.html

I checked the Japanese version of Jojirushi website

http://www.zojirushi.co.jp/syohin/01kitchencook/01list.html

and found no fuzzy rice cookers. No mention of "fuzzy" either.

One question remains: Whey do they keep selling fuzzy rice cookers in the United States?

[Joe Blowe]

I'd like to point out that fuzzy has something to do with software whereas IH has something to to with hardware.

Yes, that's one of my nitpicks. Induction is a method of heating, not cooking. And it's a constant source of debate over at the GardenWeb Appliance Forum: induction vs. everything else (gas, electric coil, etc.). The "induction people" are quite fanatical about their technology, and some of them believe that this technology can make one a better cook. (NB: This sentiment does not apply to this thread.)

[highchef]

Why do you make cooking rice so complicated?

pot w/tight lid, rice, water, salt.

1 part rice, 2 parts water.

bring to boil, stir, put lid on tight, turn to low. DO NOT OPEN LID. Cook 20 min. (experience needed here with your own pot..heavier is better).

perfect.

I have had this argument with cajuns as well guys...they like their rice cookers too. It's just that I have the one dedicated pot...and it cooks great!

[sanrensho]

One question remains:  Whey do they keep selling fuzzy rice cookers in the United States?

←

Because the vast majority of the market here in North America can't support the higher price of IH cookers. As you can see from some of the posts in this and the rice cooker thread, a lot of people don't see the point of a dedicated rice cooker. Nor can they fathom spending $250 on an IH rice cooker.

It isn't an unreasonable attitude if you only eat rice a few times a week. Compared with cooking rice at least once a day as in Japan.

[sanrensho]

My point is that it's all a bit subjective, isn't it?  Until there is some rigorously scientific double-blind-taste-test-death-match between IH and Fuzzy (do you have a link to the Japanese taste test?), it's all just a matter of opinion.  You like the results from your IH, and I like the results from my Fuzzy (I do use the "Harder" menu option (and sometimes "Softer") on my cooker).

But, for the record, if and when I have the chance to sample rice from an IH cooker and if it's noticeably better, I'll buy one in a heartbeat.  Good rice is good rice, price be damned...

←

It's pointless to argue this, since it's obvious that you've already decided that you're happy with your current fuzzy cooker. Nothing in the tone of your last two posts suggests to me that you wish to think otherwise or have an open mind to the opinion of others.

The only thing I can recommend is to find someone with an IH cooker and do some comparisons with your own machine, using the same rice.

Edited February 9, 2007 by sanrensho (log)

[insomniac]

Why do you make cooking rice so complicated?

pot w/tight lid, rice, water, salt.

1 part rice, 2 parts water.

bring to boil, stir, put lid on tight, turn to low. DO NOT OPEN LID. Cook 20 min. (experience needed here with your own pot..heavier is better).

perfect.

I have had this argument with cajuns as well guys...they like their rice cookers too. It's just that I have the one dedicated pot...and it cooks great!

←

I have never seen salt added where I learned to cook rice. Is that some sort of regional way?

Just curious.

[Domestic Goddess]

I can cook rice in any pot, although a rice cooker does have its convenience. Rice figures prominently in a Filipino's diet (breakfast, lunch, dinner). And no, we don't add salt to our rice during cooking. Just water and heat.

[rooftop1000]

Why do you make cooking rice so complicated?

pot w/tight lid, rice, water, salt.

1 part rice, 2 parts water.

bring to boil, stir, put lid on tight, turn to low. DO NOT OPEN LID. Cook 20 min. (experience needed here with your own pot..heavier is better).

perfect.

I have had this argument with cajuns as well guys...they like their rice cookers too. It's just that I have the one dedicated pot...and it cooks great!

←

I have never seen salt added where I learned to cook rice. Is that some sort of regional way?

Just curious.

←

Doesnt the box say add salt??

I'm kidding my rice doesnt come in a box, but I think Uncle Ben's does say to add butter and salt to the water.

I was once told by an Asian woman dont make rice in a pot, or you get "3 story rice" burned on the bottom - cooked in the middle - and hard on top

tracey

[highchef]

Just a little salt..like you would for pasta. I don't know about the box, I buy large bags. Sometimes get the really huge shipping bags of rice from clients. I live in rice country.

When I was just married, I was told to get a good pot (magnalite was the norm then) and dedicate it as my rice pot. the one I use now is a 2qt L.C. If you stir as soon as it comes to a boil, cover tight and immediatly turn to low, and don't cook over 20 minutes (you have to do this at least once with your pot to find proper cooking time..this is mine, using gas @ the lowest btu burner and that particular pot) and DO NOT LIFT THE LID the rice will be perfect every time. If you arn't ready for it when it's ready, just move it to a back cold burner and it'll quietly sit for a good while perfectly hot. If it's for gumbo...it can sit all day and often does. My creole and cajun friends parents would put a big pot of rice on in the morning and follow it with "ok, the rice is on, now what's for dinner?". Hot lunch with rice. Hot supper with rice. Same rice. I like mine hot and just done. If I have left over, I freeze it in a zip loc and add it to chicken soup, or make rice pudding out of it when I need some comfort food. Just pour some boiling water over it after defrosting and it's good to go. Many of my friends parents have gone to rice cookers though, mainly because they can keep the rice hot all day. I don't have to cook a hot lunch, so it's not an issue for me. A pot is easier, I don't have to store another appliance.

[SheenaGreena]

I dont know why but adding salt to rice is the weirdest thing to me.

I add it to pasta water when cooking pasta, but NEVER to rice. I think its an asian thing. Im pretty sure other cultures add salt to their rice when cooking

[brucedelta]

I'd like to point out that fuzzy has something to do with software whereas IH has something to to with hardware.

Yes, that's one of my nitpicks. Induction is a method of heating, not cooking. And it's a constant source of debate over at the GardenWeb Appliance Forum: induction vs. everything else (gas, electric coil, etc.). The "induction people" are quite fanatical about their technology, and some of them believe that this technology can make one a better cook. (NB: This sentiment does not apply to this thread.)

←

I think Joe is right on target here, as induction is the method of heating. I have a induction cooktop, but a nuro fuzzy rice cooker that uses a standard coil heating element. Induction suposidly has a benefit of very stable heat levels, which I suspect are beneficial to rice. I would be reasonably certain that from a engineering point of view all IH cookers are also fuzzy.

As an engineering definition, Fuzzy refers to the logic that controls the heater dampening curve, basically the hysterisis as it approches ideal temp, to maintainn stability. Using multiple parameters a fuzzy logic program would decide when and how to adjust tempature so as to minimize over or undershoot.

It is just like the fancy convection oven vs a cheapo gas oven. When you pay for the fancy unit and set it to 350, you expect it to stay very close to that tempature. WHile the cheap unit with 1 simple senser and a binary burner will easily overshoot desired tempature by 25 or 50 deg either way. Fuzzy logic is by definition a circuit that attempts to predict behavior and control the heat to achive the desired goal.

Fuzzy logic as a terminolgy used to refer to many things, probably most know would be the airline & hotel yield management software. In that case they need to set the price of a flight to best maximize revenue, price it to high and you have empty seats, to low and the plane is filled before the last minute travelers have a chance to buy full price tickets.

I found excellent deals on my Zojushi on ebay. With just 2 of us usually I skipped the induction because it only came of the big unit at the time (this may have changed now).