PrimeTime Tables

[BryanZ]

What surprises me is the robust defence of a third party attempting to put a price on something that is currently free.

If you pay hundreds of dollars for dinner at a fine restaurant, was your reservation still free? A reservation is similar to an option. When saying that reservations are currently free, what we mean is that right now restaurants give customers free options on meals. A third party has now come along and said that option has value. Undeniably, it does. So either somebody will make money from it, or there has to be rationing.

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Lovely analogy. Gotta arbitrage that excess away.

And maybe one of you economics guys can explain to me why I'm particularly bothered by the fact that they're maintaining a pool.  If this were a pure concierge-type service, where you told them what reservation you wanted and then they went to the trouble of getting it for you on a case-by-case basis, I wouldn't be bothered at all.

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This isn't a direct answer, but I guess they have to maintain a pool due to their business model. Not many of us have access to conceirges who can get ANY table at ANY time a day or two in advance. This service serves to democratize this process, to the extent that they accept new members. In this democratization process, I think that they have (purposely) created a demand that outweights their theoretical capabilities to function as a uber-concerige service that books tables on a case-by-case basis (the owner of PTT also owns a private a conceirge service). It's something like a trade-off for convenience for PTT members that comes with the somewhat unethical friction that may result in more no-shows (if the PTT tables aren't booked) in the short run.

As others have mentioned, restaurants could easily just raise their prices across the board until demand equals supply. Awesome. I'd rather deal with this present inefficiency and rely on yield-pricing and services like PTT to equilibrate the market.

Edited January 24, 2007 by BryanZ (log)

[Sneakeater]

I understand that they couldn't do what they're doing if they didn't maintain a pool. After all, they can't get short-term Per Se reservations any more easily than I can. (Just an example: I understand they don't offer Per Se reservations.)

GROUNDLESS INTERNET RUMOR-MONGERING:

http://gawker.com/news/food/more-on-those-...bout-231167.php

[Sneakeater]

As others have mentioned, restaurants could easily just raise their prices across the board until demand equals supply. 

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Not exactly. One problem restaurants have is that demand isn't constant. Many places go through initial "hot" periods and then normalize. If they raised their prices to accord with demand in the "hot" period, they'd then be faced with the prospect of being overpriced when they start to cool down. And it would be embarrassing for them to lower their prices then.

The PTT model allows someone to be more opportunistic. Unfortunately, it's someone whom many of us feel isn't providing any valid service, but is simply taking advantage of a market inefficiency. (Or, to quote: "Gotta arbitrage that excess away.")

[Nathan]

"After all, they can't get short-term Per Se reservations any more easily than I can."

garnering the reservations isn't necessarily the problem. it'd be the required credit card.

[weinoo]

  I had to cancel a Friday 8:30 reservation at LB the other day for this precise reason.

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Why didn't you sell it to PTT?

[BryanZ]

As others have mentioned, restaurants could easily just raise their prices across the board until demand equals supply. 

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Not exactly. One problem restaurants have is that demand isn't constant. Many places go through initial "hot" periods and then normalize. If they raised their prices to accord with demand in the "hot" period, they'd then be faced with the prospect of being overpriced when they start to cool down. And it would be embarrassing for them to lower their prices then.

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Keynes would be proud.

[Simon_S]

I thought about this whole issue quite a lot last night, especially in light of two posts which I read just as I was stepping away from the computer:

Except that you can't in NY.  there are certain restaurants in NY where the only possible way to eat at those times on those days is to call 60 (or 30 in some cases) days in advance at precisely 10 a.m. and then constantly pushing the redial button in the hope that you get through.  for many of us, this is not an option.  and even if it is, an hour of my time is worth more than $45.  [snip]

so, bizarrely enough, in theory this service actually increases the odds that I can dine when I want, where I want.  and the same certainly goes for you (unless you really want to pay transantlantic phone charges to be on hold for a half hour).

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This got me thinking, as I really do intend to be in New York in April, really will be trying to get a "top" table at a prime time on a Friday night (for my girlfriend's 30th), am really not looking forward to hitting redial transatlantic, and will be really displeased if I don't manage to get a reservation.

So, if faced with the prospect of no table and no obvious way to get one will I use the service and pay $50 or thereabouts for a reservation? Will I swallow my pride and climb off my high horse? Will I be offering up thanks that such a service exists and toasting those who had the foresight to provide it for a fee?

Too right I will!!

I agree with the factual claim there, but would add that being ready to hover over the phone at 10:00 a.m. exactly 60 days before the date you want to visit is very much a "cost." Doing so is not "free" except to the person whose time has no value. The burden is not easily assigned a monetary value in the abstract, but the Prime Time Table service indicates that to many people it's worth $50 to avoid that cost.

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And you know, in so many other walks of life I'll do that exact calculation and will regularly decide that the money is worth it if it removes hassle and saves me time. So while I'm still left with an uneasy feeling about it, I know I'd use the service in certain circumstances, and in those circumstances I might consider it good value for money.

I'm not sure where that leaves me in this discussion, but I felt it was only fair to reveal my somewhat hypocritical position!

Si

[Taboni]

I see nothing wrong with the service. In years past (and present) I could always score a prime time table at Peter Luger on the night by calling someone who knew someone there and slipping that someone an extra 20 or 30 when I showed up.

OK its not Per Se (or the like) but you get the idea. Its the same thing with PTT. I'm just jealous I didn't think of it myself

One thing I have garnered from this thread is the lack of restaurants requiring a credit card at the time of reservation. Quite a few restaurants I frequent in NJ have had this requirement for years. Is this not the case in NY these days with the majority? I just assumed it was.

Edited January 25, 2007 by Taboni (log)

[Schneier]

Clever.

[xyz123]

If they cant sell the reservation, would they call the restaurant and cancel

or does the restaurant loose

[Fat Guy]

Presumably they call to cancel. It's no skin off their backs to do so. Also, since most restaurants already assume a percentage of no-shows and overbook accordingly, and since a random customer may also hold a table and not use it, it's not likely this service could contribute appreciably to the no-show problem anyway.

[Nathan]

As I've already noted,

they don't sell reservations after noon the day of the reservation.

obviously, this means that if they haven't sold the reservation by the confirmation deadline they're letting the table go.

[BryanZ]

NYT Article.

Fat Guy is featured.

[Meredith380]

NYT Article.

Fat Guy is featured.

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From the article, and admittedly off topic:

"Moreover, Per Se, like more than a thousand restaurants worldwide, has an agreement with American Express to keep a table open for holders of their premium cards. “A card member, he’s going to buy a $700 bottle of wine rather than a $300 bottle of wine,” Mr. Keller said."

What a load of crap. I have an Amex and you'd better believe I'm not foolish enough to drop $700 on a bottle of wine. And as someone who works in reservations, there is nothing worse than a call from the "AmEx Platnium Services" requesting a reservation that the customer is too damned lazy to place. Hell you have to call AmEx, just call the restaurant. And you can bet, with the same "contract" I've turned AmEx down. It doesn't guarantee you a table. It guarantees A TABLE for one of the thousands of AmEx cardholders.

And, Mr. Keller, are you disparaging the customer who orders a bottle of wine priced at $300 rather than $700? I would think the customer ordering the $300 bottle would be more wine savvy and less of a show off, unless of course, that's what he's looking for. Then again, according to Bruni's article last Wednesday, you take Mr. Keller verbaim and believe he wants his guest to have the full "Thomas Keller Experience" by getting rid of the 5 course tasting menu. So is it all about the experience or all about the average price per customer?

Edited January 31, 2007 by Meredith380 (log)

[oakapple]

"Moreover, Per Se, like more than a thousand restaurants worldwide, has an agreement with American Express to keep a table open for holders of their premium cards. “A card member, he’s going to buy a $700 bottle of wine rather than a $300 bottle of wine,” Mr. Keller said."

What a load of crap.  I have an Amex and you'd better believe I'm not foolish enough to drop $700 on a bottle of wine.... And, Mr. Keller, are you disparaging the customer who orders a bottle of wine priced at $300 rather than $700?

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He's not saying that every Amex card holder buys $700 bottles of wine. He's saying that people who come through the platinum service are more likely to do that than the typical diner.

Is it really a surprise that the $700 customer is more valuable to him?

[tommy]

And as someone who works in reservations, there is nothing worse than a call from the "AmEx Platnium Services" requesting a reservation that the customer is too damned lazy to place. Hell you have to call AmEx, just call the restaurant.

it must be horrible for you.

i use the Platinum concierge, and i'm not lazy. it's handy for people who need a last-minute table. not necessarily for people who are too lazy to call the restaurant.

Edited January 31, 2007 by tommy (log)

[docsconz]

I use it depending on where I will be dining. I find it especially useful for international bookings. I have had mixed results with it for actually procuring reservations. In the US I typically prefer to make them myself.

[BryanZ]

In the US I've found the Platinum Conceirge pretty useless. All they have is access to Zagat and OpenTable and the occasional "agreement" with a restaurant. If the restaurant is popular anyway you're not going to get a table, so I like to call the restaurant itself.

[BDWiener]

Personally, I have no ethical problems with this. Maybe I'm ethically defective. I usually get my guidance from the NY Times' Ethicist column and he has yet to take this up.

I often have to travel to NY on short notice for business and a decent meal is one of the few perqs of the transcontinental slog. But I can never get a reservation at a decent time at a restaurant I'm excited about eating at.

So, I'd be grateful for the requisite personal referral to Prime Time Tables from any kindhearted egulleteer willing to oblige me.

[stetson99]

In the US I've found the Platinum Conceirge pretty useless.  All they have is access to Zagat and OpenTable and the occasional "agreement" with a restaurant.  If the restaurant is popular anyway you're not going to get a table, so I like to call the restaurant itself.

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I haven't found this to be the case. The last time I was in New York I used the AMEX Platinum Concierge service to successfully get at 4-top at Babbo at 7 PM on a weekend. This wasn't used as a last minute tool of course. The requested was made to AMEX one month to the day after I couldn't personally get through the Babbo phone line that morning.

I've never had any problems getting a last minute table in my own market of Houston either.

[Nathan]

Personally, I have no ethical problems with this.  Maybe I'm ethically defective.  I usually get my guidance from the NY Times' Ethicist column and he has yet to take this up.

I often have to travel to NY on short notice for business and a decent meal is one of the few perqs of the transcontinental slog.  But I can never get a reservation at a decent time at a restaurant I'm excited about eating at.

So, I'd be grateful for the requisite personal referral to Prime Time Tables from any kindhearted egulleteer willing to oblige me.

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supposedly you can type "New York Times" in the referral box and that will work.

[Nathan]

Sneakeater is about to go ballistic.

http://www.weekendepicure.com/site/home.aspx

[rich]

Interesting they have a Gordon Ramsay available.

[Nathan]

Interesting they have a Gordon Ramsay available.

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I'm sure Sneakeater will use it soon...and just won't tell us...he's always complaining about not being able to get in anywhere

[Sneakeater]

I'm gonna get in there on my own or I'm not gonna get in there at all.

(Hey. Maybe Luckylies could reintroduce me to her pastry-chef friend.)