Enforcing Alcohol Law: NYC Fine Dining Restaurants

[robert40]

I certainly have not seen anybody insinuating Bryan was looking to get buzzed.

On the contrary most if not every post states they seen no harm in his having a glass of wine at all.

What people are objecting to is casting blame at the server and calling him inexperenced for doing his job regardless if the laws enforsed or not.

[cdh]

Thinking about this from a descriptive point of view rather than a normative one explains a lot about Bryan's state of mind when the original event occurred.

It was a "I'm shocked and disturbed because the sun rose in the West, unlike every other day when the sun rose in the East" kind of experience, rather than a "OMG, they had the audacity to enforce the law against ME!" experience. (Though the original description was easily able to be read both ways.)

Edited January 6, 2007 by cdh (log)

[Sneakeater]

Thinking about this from a descriptive point of view rather than a normative one explains a lot about Bryan's state of mind when the original event occurred.

It was a "I'm shocked and disturbed because the sun rose in the West, unlike every other day when the sun rose in the East" kind of experience, rather than a "OMG, they had the audacity to enforce the law against ME!" experience.

←

YES!!!!!!!!! Exactly.

[Daniel]

I'm amazed at the number of commenters on this thread who don't seem to understand why the law is what it is, as well as the lack of support for leaving it that way. So...

Your whole post was really kind-natured, and we need that here. But I don't think that that was the focal point of the thread, or where it really took off. I think it was this comment by Bryan that's sparking all the debate and disagreement...

That I'm able to dine at nice restaurants and am accustomed to ordering a glass of wine with my parents has nothing to do with class but rather habit and precedence.  All I noted was that this has NEVER happened to me before in NYC, so I thought it shocking and slightly unsettling.

An interesting theoretical question for Bryan would be (I think), if he were in a fine-dining Chinese restaurant (e.g. Shun Lee Palace) before the smoking ban took effect in NYC, would he think that the management should look the other way if a well-dressed person about to indulge in a very expensive Chinese feast were to smoke a joint at the table? I mean, this is New York City after all and the cops generally look the other way because they have more important things to do than bust people for smoking pot, (because although pot's technically illegal, nobody enforces the law on a person with one joint's worth for his own use) - let alone when they're paying top dollar for an upscale Chinese meal (and it's an accepted fact that pot probably does more to ehnance that meal than an alcoholic accompaniment).

Any takers?

←

Problem with pot is it smells and other guests would either be scared of a contact high or be displeased with the odor.. However, if someone were to eat a pot brownie at the table, I would not expect a problem..

[Sneakeater]

I'm not sure many places are too happy about your bringing and eating your own food, Daniel.

[BryanZ]

Mayur, that was a nicely articulated post.

In regards to the smoking question, that's not really on-topic at all, but I'll run with it anyway.

As Sneakeater said, there hasn't been precedence for lighting up in fine-dining restaurants since I've been dining out. In effect it's not a widely occuring practice as pouring wine is. With that said, I consider the two things (wine v. smoking) completely different . Some old-guard libertarian who's been dining out for decades might believe otherwise, but he likely patronizes establishments where they do look the other way, and that's fine. If a restaurant becomes known for being a place where cigar smoking or hookah or other types of smoking are commonplace, even if technically prohibited under the law, that's fine with me. This type of establishment is not the fine-dining restaurant we've been discussing here.

Additionally, removing the enforcement of the law by police officers, federal agents, etc, smoking presents a much more real annoyance to other diners in the restaurant. Yes, by serving an underage diner alcohol the "parade of terribles" could be unleashed ultimately leading to the end of the end of the human race. I admit, it's possible, though pretty unlikely. As soon as someone lights up a cigarette, much less a cigar or a joint or starts taking bong rips, the dining experience for other paying customers can be severely diminished. This is an incursion on the right of others to enjoy their meal and should be confronted by management. In fact, I'm of the camp who thinks that managers have the right to speak with overly boisterous or "intimate" parties. I don't envy the staff's position in these circumstances, but to me this type of behavior posts a much more real threat and annoyance to the experience of others.

Edited January 6, 2007 by BryanZ (log)

[BryanZ]

Thinking about this from a descriptive point of view rather than a normative one explains a lot about Bryan's state of mind when the original event occurred.

It was a "I'm shocked and disturbed because the sun rose in the West, unlike every other day when the sun rose in the East" kind of experience, rather than a "OMG, they had the audacity to enforce the law against ME!" experience. (Though the original description was easily able to be read both ways.)

←

The former, the former!

[H. du Bois]

This is turning into a culture war here.

I’m glad to see this back on the New York boards. I’m not terribly comfortable with seeing one small remark made by Bryan in a restaurant review being separated out for discussion. Yes, the topic is worthy of it, but in losing the context of Bryan's full review and also of Bryan's larger body of work here, anyone unfamiliar with him might make sweeping judgments about his character based upon one small remark alone. That would be grossly unfair to him.

From a cultural point of view, New York City differs vastly from the rest of the country (and from the rest of the state itself). I feel that we’re far more grounded in European culture than we are in that of the mainstream U.S. And that’s part of the problem here. We aren’t talking about binge drinking amongst underage teenagers which often takes place behind the wheel of a car – we’re talking about someone accompanied by his parents who would be drinking a glass of wine with his meal. It’s a part of a highly civilized act within a civilized group of people, and the inclusivity of it demands the exercise of maturity.

No one would light up a joint in a restaurant in New York, because that would be bloody rude. Why anyone would equate the two acts is a mystery to me.

[Nathan]

Mayur's post said everything.

I too am glad that this is back on the NY board.

This is going to sound crass...but it's clear that some people simply don't understand fine dining.

and, um, when you're bringing up drinking and driving (which has happened numerous times on this thread)...I get confused.

what is this thing you call driving?

as for this post:

"Do you not know how many spoiled-rotten rich underage kids abuse their parents's wealth to get themselves served alcohol (including intimidating bars and restaurants to look the other way at their fake id) and then go out and kill people with their cars, or commit other foolish acts?"

maybe this happens in NJ, it certainly doesn't happen in the city. kids, whether rich or poor, don't need fake ids or need to intimidate anyone to gain access to alcohol.

Edited January 6, 2007 by Nathan (log)

[markk]

Thinking about this from a descriptive point of view rather than a normative one explains a lot about Bryan's state of mind when the original event occurred.

It was a "I'm shocked and disturbed because the sun rose in the West, unlike every other day when the sun rose in the East" kind of experience, rather than a "OMG, they had the audacity to enforce the law against ME!" experience. (Though the original description was easily able to be read both ways.)

←

Well, I think it was neither, but rather an "OMG, they had the audacity to enforce the law" experience.

[RobinsonCuisine]

If a waiter/bartender in NYC is found to be serving an underage guest alcohol, the waiter goes to court--and the courts don't care if the waiter works at Cafeteria, or Per Se, its underage drinking.

If underage drinkers (or drinkers without ID regardless of age) are found on premesis, its the managers/bouncers in addition to the server, whomever let them in the door, who can end up in jail. If there is an accident or death involved, they can be prosecuted, not the owner who may have told them to let them in (unless the owner is on site when they can be the one sent to jail). Again, no leeway is allowed for the number of stars in the reveiw. Several incidents can lead to a review or suspension of the license and future refusal of new licenses and immediate shuttering if the police want.

Just having guests on site without ID is cause enough for shutting a store down and one of the easiest tools the police have in regulating underage drinking and controling liquor abuse in general. Just because these laws havn't been enforced in the past doesn't mean they can't be if the police need to or want to.

Enforcement of these laws has been stepped up recently in response to the incidents at various nightclubs/restaurants that have resulted in rapes/stabbings/deaths of young patrons and the law really doesn't allow for a difference in type of venue. A liquor license is a liquor license.

One of the favorite sting operations the police use (I think it is actually used as part of a training course) is to send in a young cadet with an older officer and try and order a drink. The minute the drink hits the table, they bust the server. I've seen it happen, and known of it to happen. It doesn't even have to be the cadet who is served. If an officer observes an underage patron being served, they can make the arrest. Regular citizens can also complain or report underage drinking to the authorities leading to an investigation and lien on the liquor license.

As someone noted earlier, these laws were put in place to protect young people from drinking and killing themselves or being killed. No exceptions were put in place for fine dining, foreign tourists or responsible drinking with your parents.

[markk]

Do you actually GO to "fine dining" restaurants in New York?

I've been to the main Red Lobster in Times Square many times, and for my last birthday some friends took me to Otto Enoteca.

And when we go up on special occasions for Lobsterfest, which we do all the time, they card everybody who orders alcohol, old and young alike.

If you're saying that at the swanky places on Madison Park Avenue they serve wine to underage people on a regular basis, I'll bet you that if an inspector is present and sees it happen, the explanation "all fine restaurants do it, officer" will not get them out of a very serious fine, or worse.

Edited January 6, 2007 by markk (log)

[Sneakeater]

Of course, I agree with you.

But, of course, that's NOT what I'm saying.

[slkinsey]

Do you actually GO to "fine dining" restaurants in New York?

I've been to the main Red Lobster in Times Square many times, and for my last birthday some friends took me to Otto Enoteca.

So, the answer is "no," then?

I don't see why some people are having difficulty with the idea that the NYC police choose to spend their attention and resources elsewhere than busting fine dining restaurant for serving minors wine. These judgments are made by police all over the City every minute of every day. There's also a law against drinking in public in New York City. This law is not enforced against picnickers sharing a bottle of wine while hearing the Metropolitan Opera in Central Park, but is strictly enforced outside the Chelsea nightclubs. Why? Because it's a problem in Chelsea and not at Met in the Parks. It's simply naive to assume that the NYPD doesn't set enforcement priorities, and I can assure you that underage drinking at fine dining restaurants is not a high priority.

Here's a story: The first time I went to New Orleans, it was to attend the national convention of my college fraternity. On the first day, we were given an orientation session by the Chief of Police for New Orleans. He told us what parts of the City to stay out of, the fact that we would be required to decant any drinks into a "go cup" if we left a bar with our drinks, and that sort of thing. He also said, "it's no secret why we raised our drinking age to 21 years of age: to get our highway funding. But people around here, they're not going to change. As long as you're 18, you'll probably be okay." This was an explicit admission by a member of the police force that it was not a priority to enforce the drinking age in the French Quarter. They had other priorities. Similarly, the NYPD has more important priorities as well.

I'd be interested to know if anyone can search the records and find even one single case of an under age bust for drinking wine in a NYC fine dining restaurant over the last 20 years.

[wkl]

it may well be that fine dining establishments in nyc don't routinely enforce the drinking age, but if they choose to, you can't be shocked and disturbed about it and then reflect your dismay in the waiters tip. dude is just doing his job.

and where do they draw the line? if your 20 it's okay, but if your 17,no wine for you?

[RobinsonCuisine]

I'd be interested to know if anyone can search the records and find even one single case of an under age bust for drinking wine in a NYC fine dining restaurant over the last 20 years.

You probably won't find many. But, its not because of lack of enforcement.

I worked for Danny Meyer (as this concerns EMP) and several other 2, 3 and 4 star restaurants for several years and it was emphasized over and over that we were NOT to serve minors even if they were with their parents. It would be a PR disaster if the restaurant were fined and trust me, if a Danny Meyer restaurant was cited for underage drinking, it would make the news just like the Shake Shack HD report did.

I would not return to a restaurant that was known to serve minors or where I saw them being served. Now, I dont' know how old Bryan looks and really wouldn't concern myself unless the drinker obviously looked under age (I'm not witch hunting), but for whatever reason the server at EMP chose to card him, he isn't of legal age and the server had no choice but to stand ground.

[Megan Blocker]

But I for one haven't seen any documentation that this really happens, other than from two posters who said that they'd been served alcohol in upscale NYC restaurants when underage, and that's statistically insignificant.  Everybody else has just said that 'of course, we all know it happens all the time', but I don't accept that.

←

Well, I can add my voice here. When I was underage and eating out in NYC with my mom or dad, or aunt or uncle, or whomever, I was frequently served wine, and was never refused service at a restaurant. Same thing went when I ate out in Philly during college, at least at nicer places.

Probably not any more statistically significant, I realize, but just adding my own experience, which dates from about 1996-2000, when I turned 21.

[Hest88]

I certainly have not seen anybody insinuating Bryan was looking to get buzzed.

On the contrary most if not every post states they seen no harm in his having a glass of wine at all.

What people are objecting to is casting blame at the server and calling him inexperenced for doing his job regardless if the laws enforsed or not.

←

Exactement. Concisely said.

[Megan Blocker]

I'm not sure many places are too happy about your bringing and eating your own food, Daniel.

←

But what if it gets you to order MORE food? Then the pot brownie might be allowed.

Ba-dum, ching.

But seriously, folks...while I agree that Bryan's original post came across as a bit, em, entitled-sounding, I think he clarified himself later on. I don't think he felt entitled to something he didn't get, nor was he horribly offended by the experience. He was just surprised, because it didn't mesh with what he'd experienced in the past.

Did the restaurant do the legally correct thing? Sure! Did they do something different from what other restaurants typically do (at least in the experience of several people who've posted here)? Yup.

(Edited because I am extremely anal and wanted to divide my paragraphs.)

Edited January 6, 2007 by Megan Blocker (log)

[Pan]

And I don't think anyone here really cares to have the law revised.[...]

←

Then you'd be wrong. As I explained earlier (in parentheses), as far as I'm concerned, either you're not an adult and can't be drafted or serve in the military, can't be tried and sentenced for crimes as an adult, vote, serve on juries, or drive, or you should be able to legally drink. So if you really think people under 21 are irresponsible, I think you should amend the U.S. Constitution to turn 18-year-olds back into minors. But I'd argue that the real mistake here is not to allow 18-year-olds to drink, but to allow them to drive. And addressing that problem would require a very different kind of public transportation system than exists in most of the United States outside of metropolises (metropoles?) like New York City - and this is a topic largely beyond the scope of eGullet, but does go some way toward explaining why there would be differences in enforcement of the drinking age in New York, by comparison with the situation in all the places where there is a "love affair" with the automobile.

[Pan]

While I'm venting, what I also can't understand is some of the hostility toward Bryan.

People are actually saying things like, "I've got your number buddy.  You just want to get buzzed."  What a bunch of bullshit.  How many of you (other than u.e.) would generally consider having a "fine" meal without wine?[...]

←

[Raises hand] Me!

Whether I have wine or not is pretty much according to my whims and also how alert or tired I am.

[BryanZ]

Do you actually GO to "fine dining" restaurants in New York?

I've been to the main Red Lobster in Times Square many times, and for my last birthday some friends took me to Otto Enoteca.

So, the answer is "no," then?

At the risk of sounding like a total douche (which many people probably think I am anyway, so no real loss there), I honestly thought markk's post was a joke. Please tell me it is.

I would not return to a restaurant that was known to serve minors or where I saw them being served.

←

I'm sorry to say you're going to have to stop eating out in the city. At least you'll have your moral high ground.

ETA: That HAS to be a joke. You people are with me on this, right?

Edited January 6, 2007 by BryanZ (log)

[slkinsey]

I'd be interested to know if anyone can search the records and find even one single case of an under age bust for drinking wine in a NYC fine dining restaurant over the last 20 years.

You probably won't find many. But, its not because of lack of enforcement.

Um... I'd say its exactly for a lack of enforcement. Every single person who has offered an opinion on this thread as to the NYC scene has acknowledged that they have seen it happening to others and/or that it happened to them. So if there aren't any cases, then the law isn't being enforced in that context.

Now, I dont' know how old Bryan looks and really wouldn't concern myself unless the drinker obviously looked under age (I'm not witch hunting), but for whatever reason the server at EMP chose to card him, he isn't of legal age and the server had no choice but to stand ground.

So, what you're saying, as someone who "worked for Danny Meyer and several other 2, 3 and 4 star restaurants" where was "emphasized over and over that we were NOT to serve minors even if they were with their parents" is that if a customer looked like he reasonably might be 21 years old, but perhaps might not be 21 years old, you "wouldn't concern yourself" and would serve that customer. I have always understood that the law, at least as it applies in bars and shops, says you're supposed to card any customer who looks like he might possibly not be 21. You're applying the opposite standard, and saying that you wouldn't card a customer who looks like he might possibly be 21. Plenty of 18-20 year olds -- especially girls, who can avail themselves of makeup -- look like they might be 21 years old. Most of them, in fact. This is exactly what we've been talking about. I couldn't think of a better example than the one you've just given. We're not talking about 13 year olds.

That said, I do agree (and I think we all agree) that once the server chose to card Bryan, he had no choice but to refuse to serve him alcohol.

[johnder]

Ultimately it is like Sam said. NYC is a big city, It has a huge police force and is a city with a huge number of bars and resturants. I used to live up by Columbia University when I was in my mid-twenties next door to a bar/restaurant. They would have someone proofing people from the moment they doors opened until they served their last drink. In the 2 years I was living there I saw the bar get busted twice for serving minors. The weeks following this bust they had even more people proofing, once before you even walked in the door and another inside the door that would give you a tamper proof wristband showing you could drink.

After a few weeks they went back to their normal cursory proof from the bartender. This is the typical ebb and flow of carding in NYC. Each bar/resturant determines their level of risk which is determined by location, crowd demographics, nightly income, number of violations they already have, neighbors and 20 other things. These locations are the ones that are high on the police radar. If they know a certain bar/restaurant has clientel that are possibly underage it moves up on their radar. If they get complaints from neighbors about noise or fights at the bar/restaurant it goes higher up on their radar. If they get anonymous calls of underage drinking it goes through the roof.

[in the above I am referring to bars/resturants of the type that have a huge bar scene and serve some type of food. Good examples of these are the mega restaurants you see along Park Ave South, north of Union Square]

If we look at higher dining options in New York (lets say 3 star plus), you aren't going to get complaints from neighbors about underage drinking, complaints from neighbors about noise and fights and typically be off the radar of the police for the most part. Does this make it ok for underage people to drink in these establishments? Legally, no it doesn't. Will the police come and bust EMP or Per Se, or Ramsay for someone whois 19 or 20 having a drink with their parents? Highly unlikely.

[johnder]

Oh, I forgot, I was at 3-4 star restaurant a few weeks ago and there were two appearingly underage women (I would have had no reservations about proofing them myself) sitting next to us. After enjoying a cocktail, the sommelier chatted them up and sat down on the banquet next to them and proceeded to help them pick out a bottle of wine to match with their food.