Enforcing Alcohol Law: NYC Fine Dining Restaurants

[Sneakeater]

Admin: Split from the thread on Eleven Madison Park in the NY forum.

The low point--it wasn't THAT low--was our server who seemed to be new. You could tell he was trying hard and therefore the service experience wasn't quite as smooth and seamless. The meal started on a somehwat stressful note when he took my and my mother's drink order but upon bringing the glasses for wine would not serve me because I may not technically be 21. So, yes, he does have the law and all that on his side, but this has NEVER happened to me, and I eat out a ton. For one, I'm with my mommy, I'm not getting wasted. Secondly, back when I was like 17 or something I felt the need to aplogize to the wine captain at Cru for not ordering wine at a restaurant known for it because I was underage. He flat out said that the unofficial, official policy for good restaurants was one of don't ask, don't tell. Needless to say I was thrown off my game, as I may have known persons who may have been underage who may have enjoyed many a great glass of wine while dining at EMP, but with that unfortunate event behind us, the meal began. I'm interested to hear what people think about this.

I personally find that wine thing sort of outrageous.

[robert40]

I personally find that wine thing sort of outrageous.

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Explanation please? Are you saying high end restaurants are exempt from the law? And should have the server taken the chance and served him to avoid a awkward situation?

Just curious.

Edited January 1, 2007 by robert40 (log)

[Sneakeater]

I personally find that wine thing sort of outrageous.

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Explanation please? Are high end restaurants exempt from the law and should have the server taken the chance and served him to avoid a awkward situation?

Just curious.

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I've never heard of that law being applied to fine-dining restaurants. This isn't like the megaclubs on West 27th St., or like some kid wandering into a bar. This isn't even like a bunch of teenagers coming into a restaurant unsupervised by any adult (in which case prudence would dictate that the restaurant refuse to serve them). This is a grown child, out to dinner with a parent, ordering wine with the parent's obvious consent.

There is no evil that the liquor laws seek to prevent, not a single one, implicated by this circumstance. And, as I said, at least as far as I know, there would be minimal (if even that) risk to the restaurant in serving wine to Bryan. (If anyone has any evidence indicating I'm wrong about that, I'd appreciate hearing it.)

Finally, this is what causes overconsumption and binge-drinking in high school and college students. It leads to an unhealthy relationship with alcoholic beverages.

Actually, that's not "finally." Finally, I think this was very rude to Bryan's mother.

[robert40]

I personally find that wine thing sort of outrageous.

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Explanation please? Are high end restaurants exempt from the law and should have the server taken the chance and served him to avoid a awkward situation?

Just curious.

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I've never heard of that law being applied to fine-dining restaurants. This isn't like the megaclubs on West 27th St., or like some kid wandering into a bar. This isn't even like a bunch of teenagers coming into a restaurant unsupervised by any adult (in which case prudence would dictate that the restaurant refuse to serve them). This is a grown child, out to dinner with a parent, ordering wine with the parent's obvious consent.

There is no evil that the liquor laws seek to prevent, not a single one, implicated by this circumstance. And, as I said, at least as far as I know, there would be minimal (if even that) risk to the restaurant in serving wine to Bryan. (If anyone has any evidence indicating I'm wrong about that, I'd appreciate hearing it.)

Finally, this is what causes overconsumption and binge-drinking in high school and college students. It leads to an unhealthy relationship with alcoholic beverages.

Actually, that's not "finally." Finally, I think this was very rude to Bryan's mother.

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I see nothing wrong also with Bryan having a glass of wine with dinner. But unfortunately the law will not excuse restaurants or servers employed by them.

http://www.westchestergov.com/stopdwi/imag...wifaqfinal1.pdf

Can my child consume alcohol in a bar/restaurant if I am present and I purchase the alcohol

for him/her?

No. Bars and restaurants are licensed by the New York State Liquor Authority, and the law does

not allow consumption of alcoholic beverages by persons under the age of 21, even under their

parents’ supervision. The bar and restaurant owner may also be liable if a patron under the age of 21

leaves the establishment intoxicated and causes property damage, personal injury or the death of a

person.

(Alcoholic Beverage Control Law §§ 65, 65-c; Penal Law § 260.20(2); General Obligations Law

§11-100)

[Sneakeater]

That would be on-point if this law were ever enforced in like places in like circumstances. I don't know what happens in Westchester, but in New York City it isn't. So just trotting out the law doesn't answer the question. If the law is never enforced, we're stuck back with the right or wrong of it. (I'm certainly not advocating that restaurants be put at risk of penalties. My point is, there is virtually no risk of penalties to the restaurant.) And I think we all agree there'd be nothing wrong with serving wine to Bryan.

Indeed, since grown-but-underaged children dining with their parents are routinely served wine in fine-dining restaurants in New York, what happened to Bryan represents a policy shift (and I would argue it's one of major proportions). Except that I'm pretty sure it isn't a policy shift, but rather, as Bryan indicated, the acts of an inexperienced waiter.

Edited January 1, 2007 by Sneakeater (log)

[BryanZ]

I've discussed this a lot elsewhere, but Sneakeater, I think you've got it exactly right. Yes, the law does exist, but since it is so rarely enforced in this type of setting, it becomes a judgement call on the server's part. It becomes a question of what the server's primary responsibility is. Is it to proactively uphold a law (in this case asking outright) that is rarely enforced or is it to provide customers with an enjoyable, stress-free dining experience.

I take no issue with people who side with the former, but I personally subscribe to the latter. Yes, laws exist for the protection of everyone, but philosophically I believe that there are times when they can be bent or overlooked by individuals. There are consequences to this, yes, but again it is a judgement call that depends on what one's motivation or responsiblity truly is.

[Sneakeater]

And just to be clear, when I talked about the law's being "enforced", I meant enforced against the restaurant. If the restaurant is at serious risk of a significant penalty, then of course they should refuse to serve wine to grown minors. But if they aren't (as in fact they aren't), then they're just making a value judgment that I would think should be left up to Bryan's mother.

Edited January 1, 2007 by Sneakeater (log)

[Daniel]

I find that completely outrageous Bryan.. I cant believe that happened to you and it would have affected my tip with the waiter big time.. I dont care about the actual laws.. This is New York City, and a controlled and distinguished environment.. You were with your mother for crying out loud.. The waiter was and is an asshole unless that is the restaurants policy.. And if it is the restaurants policy, they should do what airport bars do.. And that is to ID everyone, whether its an 80 year old man in a wheelchair, or a 20 something looking kid.. Do you think he stands on the street and alerts Traffic Cops to expired meters? Can you just see this guy in the back of the class informing the teacher she forgot to assign homework over the weekend?

Edited January 2, 2007 by Daniel (log)

[oakapple]

And if it is the restaurants policy, they should do what airport bars do.. And that is to ID everyone, whether its an 80 year old man in a wheelchair, or a 20 something looking kid..

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Airport bars don't card everybody. They don't card me, and I'm 46.

I'm amazed that no one has considered the possibility that maybe, just maybe, the server didn't do this on his own.

[Daniel]

Really, I thought they did? Since I have started taking notice, I have seen it done in Newark, LGA, JFK, and Ohare.. I just assumed it was everywhere.. And hey, I brought it up?

[Sneakeater]

I'm amazed that no one has considered the possibility that maybe, just maybe, the server didn't do this on his own.

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I considered the possibility but rejected it as unlikely.

I take nieces and friends' children out to dinner all the time. I've simply never encountered what happened to Bryan. I can't recall that I've ever taken them to any Danny Meyer restaurants, so I can't say for sure that the Meyer group's policy doesn't differ in such a big way from that of every other comparable NYC restaurant that I'm aware of. But I tend to doubt that it does.

But the real point is, I was trying to be generous when I attributed this to an errant server. Because if it came from management, I think it's WAY out of line.

Unless, of course, they're privy to info not generally disseminated suggesting that the City or State is about to start cracking down on liquor sales to minors in high-end restaurants.

Edited January 2, 2007 by Sneakeater (log)

[Megan Blocker]

Actually, that's not "finally."  Finally, I think this was very rude to Bryan's mother.

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While I agree that our alcohol consumption regulations in this country are overzealous, I don't disagree with the waiter's decision not to serve someone underage. I mean, the waiter didn't write the law, and the law of averages (since I know no one who agrees with 21 as the legal drinking age) says he probably doesn't agree with it, either, but it is, unfortunately, his reponsibility as a server to follow it.

However, that said, from a service perspective, better to deal with the situation up front, before taking and accepting the order. Definitely.

[jsmeeker]

If it violates state/local law, a restuarant, no matter what level it's at, could be putting their liquor license at risk for serving a minor. There is no way someone that ran/owned a restaurant would publically announce that they serve alcohol to minors in violation of state/local laws.

However, I don't have a problem with Bryan getting served. If a restaurant chooses to look the other way, that's their business.

I don't run a reastaurant, so I am not faced with this dilema.

[robert40]

I honestly am tempted to check my calendar just to ensure myself this is not April 1st.

Because someone is pulling my chain on this one.

If this discussion is serious then from my understanding if a law is not enforced you can disregard it in New York City? If chef Humm called the server in his office and said what the hell are you doing? I just got a call from the New York State Liquor Authority on your serving a minor and can you give me a explanation.

"Well chef I never heard of it being enforced" and I certainly don't wish to be shorted on a tip. In all honestly do any believe his response would be "Oh fine I understand now"?

Better yet can one use this defense in front of a judge in NY? But your honor its not enforced here.

People look up the statute! It says nothing about omitting New York City. Nothing about being permissible with a parent. And certainly nothing about it being left to the discretion of the server or restaurant.

But all I keep hearing is, This is not enforced in the city. Well there is always a first time for every thing. And by chance if it was this incident who would pay this servers cable bill if he lost his job?? Guess it would be his tough luck.

[Sneakeater]

However, that said, from a service perspective, better to deal with the situation up front, before taking and accepting the order.  Definitely.

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Thinking it over, probably (or at least possibly) what happened is that the server took the order, and then went to the back and asked somebody, "I just took a wine order for someone I'm pretty sure is underage. Can I serve him?" And of course, whomever the server asked felt he had to answer "no".

I think the REAL policy is, "don't ask don't tell." I think most servers understand it that way, and I think management prefers it that way.

[Megan Blocker]

Really, I thought they did? Since I have started taking notice, I have seen it done in Newark, LGA, JFK, and Ohare.. I just assumed it was everywhere.. And hey, I brought it up? 

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Maybe it's just your babyface that does the trick?

[Megan Blocker]

However, that said, from a service perspective, better to deal with the situation up front, before taking and accepting the order.  Definitely.

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Thinking it over, probably (or at least possibly) what happened is that the server took the order, and then went to the back and asked somebody, "I just took a wine order for someone I'm pretty sure is underage. Can I serve him?" And of course, whomever the server asked felt he had to answer "no".

I think the REAL policy is, "don't ask don't tell." I think most servers understand it that way, and I think management prefers it that way.

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Probably. I certainly preferred it that way when I was underage.

[slkinsey]

robert40, please don't be deliberately obtuse. The legal validity and enforcability of the law is not the question. Everyone knows that there are plenty of laws on the books which are hardly enforced, and customs of looking the other way -- especially in New York City. For example, it is against the law to smoke within 100 feet of the entrance to a public building. Are you suggesting that building owners across New York City should be shooing away the huddling smokers during a rainstorm? Or, might it be considered ungracious to do so? I am quite sure that the owners, chefs and FOH managers in higher-end NYC restaurants are well aware of the fact that the children of well-heeled customers are regularly served.

[robert40]

I have worked in restaurants all my life and never have I heard don't ask don't tell. But I have heard, Buddy you jeopardize my licence your out the door.

[Megan Blocker]

Are you suggesting that building owners across New York City should be shooing away the huddling smokers during a rainstorm?  Or, might it be considered ungracious to do so?  I am quite sure that the owners, chefs and FOH managers in higher-end NYC restaurants are well aware of the fact that the children of well-heeled customers are regularly served.

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It's interesting...this dicussion reminds me of the book I'm reading right now (La Bella Figura by Beppe Severgnini) and its explanation of Italians and their relationship to regulations - how everything is relative and can be re-evaluated based on circumstance (witness Italian traffic).

Sorry to be a little OT, but it seemed an interesting parallel.

[Daniel]

I have told my Babbo story as a 26 year old getting ID.. My girlfriend has reminded me of another incident which happened less then two months ago.. Now, as a 30 yr old, I was at a wedding at the Soho Loft Space, wearing a tuxedo, and the guy at the Martini Bar would not serve me.. I told him to call a manager and the manager apologized and served me a drink.. So thats two times it has happened to me since I started drinking at around 15..

Edited January 2, 2007 by Daniel (log)

[jsmeeker]

I have told my Babbo story as a 26 year old getting ID.. My girlfriend has reminded me of another incident which happened less then two months ago.. Now, as a 30 yr old, I was at a wedding at the Soho Loft Space, wearing a tuxedo, and the guy at the Martini Bar would not serve me.. I told him to call a manager and the manager apologized and served me a drink..  So thats two times it has happened to me since I started drinking at around 15..

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Just boyish good looks.

Years from now, you'll wish it was still happening.

[robert40]

robert40, please don't be deliberately obtuse.  The legal validity and enforcability of the law is not the question.  Everyone knows that there are plenty of laws on the books which are hardly enforced, and customs of looking the other way -- especially in New York City.  For example, it is against the law to smoke within 100 feet of the entrance to a public building.  Are you suggesting that building owners across New York City should be shooing away the huddling smokers during a rainstorm?  Or, might it be considered ungracious to do so?

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I get the impression from some that this is a minor infraction.

But in truth liquor licence's cost thousands of dollars and restaurants take jepardizing them very seriously.

Laws like smoking in front of a building or the seat belt law are not comparable in my opinion.

Speaking of serious... I once was sitting in a bar when the police came in and put the bartender in hand cuffs and lend her out. Why? Serving minors.

Neighborhood bar mind you. But that's my point the law does not distinguish the difference.

[oakapple]

I have worked in restaurants all my life and never have I heard don't ask don't tell. But I have heard, Buddy you jeopardize my licence your out the door.

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The situation, as I understand it, is this:

It is illegal to serve anyone under 21, full stop. However, I have never heard of a law or an official state policy on carding. How old must a patron's "apparent age" be, before it is totally unnecessary to card them? Is there a government position on that? Not that I've heard of.

So the reality is that, in places where police sting operations are likely (bars and liquor stores), they card conservatively. I've haven't heard of little old ladies getting carded, but it's quite typical to be carded if you look under 30, on the off-chance that you might be an extremely mature-looking 20-year-old.

In fine dining restaurants, where a police sting is about as likely as an Elvis sighting, the de facto rule is apparently the exact opposite. If you look like you could be 21, you're generally not carded. Would they serve my 11-year-old son? I don't think so.

Edited January 2, 2007 by oakapple (log)

[slkinsey]

My experience is that carding happens with increasing frequency as restaurants descend down the "fine dining ladder." I can't imagine that Per Se or ADNY would for a moment consider not serving wine to a late-teenager in the presence of his/her parents. On the other hand, at Dinosaur Barbecue they probably would never serve a potential minor.

Eleven Madison Park, the site of this particular example, is high enough up the ladder that I consider it unusual that they declined to serve a college age kid out for dinner with his parents. He wasn't asking for a nine ounce vodka martini, after all.

Speaking of serious... I once was sitting in a bar when the police came in and put the bartender in hand cuffs and lend her out. Why? Serving minors.

Neighborhood bar mind you. But that's my point the law does not distinguish the difference.

Yea, I think we all know this can happen. Yea, it could happen at Eleven Madison Park to a college-age kid drinking wine with his mother during dinner. Is it likely to happen? I'd be shocked if any such thing has happened in this city at a two-star or higher restaurant in the last 20 years. The "rules" are different for bars than they are for restaurants (I would not consider it unusual if the bar at EMP declined to serve Bryan a martini). And the "rules" are different among restaurants as well.