Focaccia experts... need advice from breadmakers

[C_Ruark]

Hi Everyone,

I am dabbling in the realm of breadmaking by working a focaccia recipe from "Baking with Julia" (Craig Kominiak's version). Please help teach a cook a few breadmaking tricks! Here are a couple questions about lean bread dough production...

Oils - What sort of impact on flavor and dough structure will different oils have on the recipe?

The original recipe calls for olive oil, I'm subbing in walnut oil for this first version. My goof (doh!), I grabbed the wrong bottle!

Salt - When transcribing the TV version of the recipe, I noticed that salt wasn't added to the mixture. Does this have any serious impact?

From McGee, it seems that salt is used to temper yeast's potency so that it doesn't give off as much CO2.

Yeast - n changing recipe quantities what do you do about the amount of yeast to be used? If I am halving other ingredient amounts do I do the same with yeast? What do I do if I increase weights?

Rises - Why does some recipes use more rises than others? What's that doing to the dough?

This recipe has two room temperature rise/punch-downs and an overnight stay in the fridge before shaping the loaves.

Thanks for reading!

~C

[C_Ruark]

Learned a thing or two...

1 - Walnut oil turned out to be a bad idea for this recipe. It didn't become evident until I baked the breads. Could be that the smoke point for unrefined walnut oil is about 85 deg lower than EVOO. The crust carried a bitter nut taste that wasn't too pleasant.

2 - Salt needs to be added to the dough. It was "musty" tasting.

3 and 4 - I can skip leaving the dough overnight in my fridge. When warmed back to room temp, it wasn't as billowy as right after the second rise.

Round 2 is coming, I'll correct the faults and see what is happening.

[alanamoana]

i would say that the multiple rise and overnight retarding in the fridge is mostly for flavor development.

i don't necessarily think it is as important with a focaccia, especially if you're topping with a flavorful herb and oil blend. more important if you're leaving it plain and just sprinkling with a nice salt.

as you figured out, nut oils have different (often lower) smoke points which don't always work well at the high temps needed to bake bread. if you're looking for that particular flavor, like if you want to put walnuts on your focaccia and walnut oil would complement that, then save it for the end...a drizzle right after the focaccia comes out of the oven.

salt...flavor as well as yeast "tempering"

often, if you're making a bread based on a sponge or starter of some sort, there won't be salt added to the pre-dough. there is also autolysis, a method where the initial ingredients like flour and water are mixed and allowed to hydrate or rest before the rest of the ingredients (salt, etc.) are added. but salt is definitely necessary in bread for flavor (although there are examples of saltless breads). so i'd some salt to your recipe.

yeast can be treated like other ingredients in halving or multiplying recipes.

[C_Ruark]

Helpful advice AM. Thanks very much.

[chiantiglace]

Oils - What sort of impact on flavor and dough structure will different oils have on the recipe?

Well in foccacia the oil is imperative. Fat in general enriches bread, makes it softer and possibly shortens gluten strands. The higher the amount of fat, the harder it is for the gluten to be worked, because its harder for them to inter and over lap each other creating a web. This can also mean if you add the fat too soon, or at the wrong amounts, it will take longer for the dough to knead which will essentially heat it up and speed up the yeast production plus reducing proofing time.

Flavored oils (depending on how strong) can have a profound inpact on a finished product. Some oils, like lemon for example, can be over powering. I, for one, make my own rosemary oil just for foccaccia. I use it throughout the process, in the dough, kneading, and brushing with. Tastes phenomenal.

Foccaccia should be used with olive oil (atleast a derivitive of olive oil).

Salt - When transcribing the TV version of the recipe, I noticed that salt wasn't added to the mixture. Does this have any serious impact?

Very very very few breads in this world do not contain salt. There is an tuscan semolina bread that has no salt in it primarily because it is solely used for prosciutto tasting. The reason being because prosciutto is salty and has enough flavor to overwhelm the bread.

Simply put, bread (especially on its own) NEEDS SALT. It really has no flavor without salt and is a poor choice of food when lacking in salt.

Salt not only is the flavor enhancer but it also controls yeast activity, allowing the bread to rise without getting out of hand. Salt also kills yeast so be cautious with its use and when you add it to the dough.

Maybe you missed them putting in the salt, maybe they were careless and forgot to put it in, or maybe they are just not right in the head, but dont always go by what you see on TV. Remember this, bread with out salt is as good as cement.

Yeast - n changing recipe quantities what do you do about the amount of yeast to be used? If I am halving other ingredient amounts do I do the same with yeast? What do I do if I increase weights?

Always adjust your yeast according to your total dough weight. But it doesn't really matter unless you have way too much yeast. Just remember that the longer it takes for the dough to rise, the more flavor you are going to get out of the dough. The alchohol released from the yeast is where you get a lot of your flavor. That alchohol relaxes and messages glutens strands. the longer those strands undergo this procedure the more enjoyable they will be to eat. But also remember to keep folding the dough so that the gasses (CO2 + Alchohol) excreted by the yeast do not suffocate them. So as long as there is some yeast in the dough, you can let it go a couple days retarded and you will still acheive a wonderful bread.

But if you want your recipe to always come out consistent you will want to keep the yeast at the same percentage to your flour.

Rises - Why does some recipes use more rises than others? What's that doing to the dough

I think I just explained that, but if you need me to go further I will.

[C_Ruark]

Hi Tony,

Thanks for the technical breakdown; loads of useful info.

How different is your recipe from CIA's basic lean bread dough recipe? I have it, but opted to go with Julia's recipe for round 1.

I had a feeling that the recipe I transcribed was recited for the stunt food they used. Rewatched the video, salt is definitely in the table wide shot but out of arm's reach. I did find the show's recipe book at B&N a few nights ago but didn't read the ingredients list too closely. Someone bought the copy before I could reread it.

Edited November 16, 2006 by C_Ruark (log)

[Paul Stanley]

Very very very few breads in this world do not contain salt.  There is an tuscan semolina bread that has no salt in it primarily because it is solely used for prosciutto tasting.  The reason being because prosciutto is salty and has enough flavor to overwhelm the bread.

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I'm not sure the Tuscan bread is saltless for such a specialised reason. I was in Umbria (next door to Tuscany) this summer, and almost all the bread was saltless. It just seems to be the standard/preferred "everyday" bread in that part of the world. It's the basic bread you will find at the bakers, on the supermarket shelves, on your table at an ordinary restaurant. I wasn't that keen, but did find that it improved somewhat as one got used to it.

My general impression (may be wrong) is that most Italian bread has less salt than we are used to in England, or that one would expect in France, say ... though completely saltless bread seems to be a Tuscan/Umbrian thing.

[srhcb]

The Focaccia recipe in my copy of Baking With Julia calls for 4 tsp Salt. (2 1/4 -2 1/2 C Water, 2 Tbl Active Dry yeast, 1/4 C Olive Oil and 6 1/2 C Flour)

SB (might try Clarified Butter instead of Olive Oil?)

[pizzabrasil]

Backing is not an exact science, most an art. There will always be differences in the recipes, depending on environment, equipment, uses and especially, bakers.

Regarding the use of yeast in the dough, the quantities do not, necessarily, need to be adjusted just according your total dough weight.

If the dough will be rising on counter or in the refrigerator, if the rising time need to be retarded (either for flavor or schedule) of if your kitchen is cold or hot, all of these and a lot of others reasons are important to adjust the yeast quantities.

Is a matter of experience and personal taste.

Having a wood oven, and making lots of pizzas and focaccias, I normally use to use long-in-refrigerator rise times and little quantities of yeast. 1/8 of teaspoon to a pair-of-pizzas-dough is a good example.

In case of the home oven use, where the temperatures are the halves of wood one, a little more of yeast could be used to better ovenspring.

Follow some pictures from the last focaccias, either in home or in wood oven, just to show the differences (shots not so good)

Luis

Edited November 17, 2006 by Pam R (log)

[CaliPoutine]

Holy Crap that looks good ( Pointing up^^^^^^^)

[C_Ruark]

The Focaccia recipe in my copy of Baking With Julia calls for 4 tsp Salt.  (2 1/4 -2 1/2 C Water, 2 Tbl Active Dry yeast, 1/4 C Olive Oil and 6 1/2 C Flour)

SB (might try Clarified Butter instead of Olive Oil?)

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I was hoping someone would post the printed version. Thanks Steve!

Luis, the breads looks AWESOME! When you say "long refrigerator time" do you mean 36 hrs or longer?

~Chris

Edited November 17, 2006 by C_Ruark (log)

[pizzabrasil]

Chris:

I mean 24+ hours.

The first focaccia (those from wood oven) had nearly 22 hs and the last one was rised on counter and had around 9 hours of rising time.

I used Carl´s preferment in the first dough and a combination of Carl´s, Camaldoli and Ischia preferments in the second one (I did not want to waste the feeding halves of preferment) :-)

Luis

[C_Ruark]

Chris:

I mean 24+ hours.

The first focaccia (those from wood oven) had nearly 22 hs and the last one was rised on counter and had around 9 hours of rising time.

I used Carl´s preferment in the first dough and a combination of Carl´s, Camaldoli and Ischia preferments in the second one (I did not want to waste the feeding halves of preferment) :-)

Luis

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Thanks!

[UnConundrum]

Chris, if you're interested, I came up with a no-knead version of focaccia that turns out really great. Doesn't require overnight fermentation. You can find pictures and the recipe HERE

[C_Ruark]

Chris, if you're interested, I came up with a no-knead version of focaccia that turns out really great.  Doesn't require overnight fermentation.  You can find pictures and the recipe HERE

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Thanks! Looked at the recipe. I'm prepping a corrected dough for baking on Sunday. I think I'll give yours a go at the same time.

[chiantiglace]

The second you start mixing the ingredients aren't you kneading it?

I dont think anyone really kneads foccaccia and ciabatta very long anyways. It's kind of hard.

Also I have always been for of a fan of foccaccia with more of a pull to it than cakey texture. Meaning I like a little gluten structure to mine.

[UnConundrum]

The second you start mixing the ingredients aren't you kneading it?

I dont think anyone really kneads foccaccia and ciabatta very long anyways.  It's kind of hard.

Also I have always been for of a fan of foccaccia with more of a pull to it than cakey texture.  Meaning I like a little gluten structure to mine.

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I believe mixing, stretching, and kneading to be three different processes. If you're asking whether gluten starts to develop when you start mixing, I'd have to agree with you. In fact, it starts to develop as soon as you add water. I can assure you that the results from my recipe are not "cakey" and the gluten is well developed. I believe you can tell that from the sheen given off by the walls of the holes. Did you look at the picture?

[C_Ruark]

Just a quick update. Sorry for the delay.

In trial 2 I corrected my errors with choosing the right oil and salt... much better results. More "bread-like"!!! Now working on the airness of the bread. I noticed that there is a significant difference to the air retention capacity of the dough when the corrected oil (read: olive) is used.

What sorts of tricks will help keep the air cells larger?

Trial 3 starts tomorrow: Warren's no-knead recipe and technique.

~C

Edited December 5, 2006 by C_Ruark (log)

[chiantiglace]

The second you start mixing the ingredients aren't you kneading it?

I dont think anyone really kneads foccaccia and ciabatta very long anyways.  It's kind of hard.

Also I have always been for of a fan of foccaccia with more of a pull to it than cakey texture.  Meaning I like a little gluten structure to mine.

←

I believe mixing, stretching, and kneading to be three different processes. If you're asking whether gluten starts to develop when you start mixing, I'd have to agree with you. In fact, it starts to develop as soon as you add water. I can assure you that the results from my recipe are not "cakey" and the gluten is well developed. I believe you can tell that from the sheen given off by the walls of the holes. Did you look at the picture?

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yep, looks good.

[tino27]

A couple of things to add to the conversation.

Typically, wetter doughs produce better air holes. Also, baking the bread in a hotter oven helps out the ovenspring as well.

As for oil, many have mentioned the role of oils/fats in bread doughs, but I don't believe anyone has mentioned this one. It's not just the presence of oil in a recipe, but WHEN the oil is added.

If you knead the bread dough for several minutes and then add the oil, your dough will have had a chance to form gluten. Adding the oil later will coat the already formed gluten strands. On the other hand, if you add the oil at the beginning, the oil will serve to inhibit the formation of gluten. This is most evident in a bread like brioche -- where if you add the butter at the beginning of the process, the result is cake-ier. If you add the butter after the gluten has developed, the result will be bread that has layers to it (kind of like a good biscuit).

The oil also helps to extend the shelf life of the bread as well.

All that being said, I use olive oil in my focaccia and I add it at the beginning during the mixing process. However, I do a pre-frement (a poolish) with 33% of the flour for about 12 hours beforehand, so there is plenty of gluten formed by the time I mix up my dough. Plus, the pre-ferment adds lots of lovely flavor.

Edited December 5, 2006 by tino27 (log)

[C_Ruark]

A couple of things to add to the conversation...

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Tino,

Timely comments! Appreciate the tweaks for the next trial: will try the pre-ferment suggestion as well as moving the addition of oil to later in the process.

Also, brioche will be my first rich bread attempt, so thanks ahead of that test.

[UnConundrum]

I agree with a lot of what Tino said, with one caveat. The no-knead focaccia I've posted is designed to replace the poolish or pre-ferment. I've tasted baguettes, one made with a poolish, and one with the no-knead method side by side and there was virtually no difference. You'll note that the yeast volume is rather low, and allows for a slow fermentation and flavor development. Furthermore, Using a mixer with a poolish results in greater oxidation of the dough which tends to decrease flavor. The no-knead doughs trade some fermentation time for the reduced oxidation resulting in near equal results.

[DanielBerman]

What sorts of tricks will help keep the air cells larger?

Trial 3 starts tomorrow: Warren's no-knead recipe and technique.

~C

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With lean breads, a nice airy texture usually comes from having a high hydration level (look at the great wet dough pictures above) - and by being careful not to degas the the dough too much after the bulk ferment.

The wet dough is better able to give you the nice clear bubbles I associate with good foccacia

If you dont punch down the dough after the bulk ferment (and if its good and wet you wont really be able to) some of the bubbles that have developed during the ferment are retained and can give you a nice open texture

There is a very good recipe in The Bread Baker's Apprentice by Peter Reinhart.

Enjoy...

[Domestic Goddess]

UnConundrum - can I ask for your recipe in cups/tsp measurements for your no-knead foccacia? I am a beginner in baking breads and also have atrocious math skills. That is, if you have a converted recipe for it. Thank you in advance.

[UnConundrum]

UnConundrum - can I ask for your recipe in cups/tsp measurements for your no-knead foccacia? I am a beginner in baking breads and also have atrocious math skills. That is, if you have a converted recipe for it. Thank you in advance.

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We're still working on the site, and will have a button to convert from weight to volume shortly. There is a conversions page where you can convert each ingredient, one at a time. To help you out:

Flour 10 3/4 cups

Water 3 3/4 cups

Salt 5 teaspoons

Oil 5 tablespoons

Yeast 1 1/4 teaspoons

By the way, I use grapeseed oil because it has a high smoke point and it's a healthy oil. You can substitute olive oil if you like, or vegetable oil...

Also, I do a lot of things to taste. The amount of herbs you sprinkle with, or the amount of olive oil you dribble over the top is entirely up to you, within reason. You don't want it swimming in olive oil, nor do you want a layer of herbs.... Same is true with the salt you sprinkle on top.... to your taste. I can't overstate how nice the maldon sea salt is if you have some. It adds a nice crunch