Cooking masala trouble

[cnspriggs]

Hello!

I'm working my way through a local cookbook (Vancouver restaurant called Vij's book) and keep having the same thing when starting out the curry recipes with his 'wet cooked masala' and hoping someone can help.

As per the directions I start my spices (usually cumin seeds) for the 30sec or 1 min on med-high heat as suggested. It strictly says to make sure the spices do not burn. Then I put in the chopped onions which are instructed to take about 5-8 min at the same heat and turn a dark brown colour. I end up having to turn the heat down so the cumin in the pan doesn't burn but then the onions take way longer to brown than the suggested times. I can tell for sure something isn't working as when I use black mustard seeds in the spices the instructions say if they start to pop they are burning-well I get the onions in and the seeds stop popping initially but then if I do not adjust the heat they start popping again. Can I leave the heat high and somehow stop the cumin from burning? Is it possible I'm not using enough fat (I use either canola oil or ghee)? Is it the pan I'm using (I have a nonstick good quality fry pan)? I really want to get this right as I think the big difference between my version of the food and restaurants in how much deeper brown they get the onions compared to what I can before my spices burn.

After this the instructions read that the chopped tomato goes in after until the 'oil glistens on top' I haven't quite figured out if I've got oil on the top or not but again the recommended time seems too short.

Any help is appreciated!

[waaza]

Hello!

I'm working my way through a local cookbook (Vancouver restaurant called Vij's book) and keep having the same thing when starting out the curry recipes with his 'wet cooked masala' and hoping someone can help.

As per the directions I start my spices (usually cumin seeds) for the 30sec or 1 min on med-high heat as suggested. It strictly says to make sure the spices do not burn. Then I put in the chopped onions which are instructed to take about 5-8 min at the same heat and turn a dark brown colour. I end up having to turn the heat down so the cumin in the pan doesn't burn but then the onions take way longer to brown than the suggested times. I can tell for sure something isn't working as when I use black mustard seeds in the spices the instructions say if they start to pop they are burning-well I get the onions in and the seeds stop popping initially but then if I do not adjust the heat they start popping again. Can I leave the heat high and somehow stop the cumin from burning? Is it possible I'm not using enough fat (I use either canola oil or ghee)? Is it the pan I'm using (I have a nonstick good quality fry pan)? I really want to get this right as I think the big difference between my version of the food and restaurants in how much deeper brown they get the onions compared to what I can before my spices burn.

After this the instructions read that the chopped  tomato goes in after until the 'oil glistens on top' I haven't quite figured out if I've got oil on the top or not but again the recommended time seems too short.

Any help is appreciated!

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Hi cn,

Frying whole spices is common in some regional cuisines in India, especially Bengali, where they use panch poran in most things (or so it seems ). In Bengali cooking, a mix of the five seeds, fenugreek, cumin, fennel, kalongi (usually mis-identified as onion seed) and radhuni (wild celery seed, often replaced with brown mustard seed, but these can pop violently) are fried for a minute or so at the beginning of making a dish.

Many Indian dishes (especially N Indian) start by frying onions until they are golden, this usually takes about 20 minutes, but can take up to an hour without browning, see:my food blog

getting the right temperature is vital, and you will have to experiment, choosing the right pan is important, heavy being better (IMHO than thin-walled) and watch for draughts around the pan, which can cool.

Another alternative is to do it in two stages, do a hot oil extract of the spice/s, then, when happy, sieve out the whole spices and use the oil for frying the onions, etc. Note that if adding tomatoes at a later stage, you should have added all (or most) of the other spices by this time (again see my blog....read about Kow)

The point about the oil glistening concerns the distribution of flavours in the dish. All spice flavours are derived from volatile chemicals which are more oil-liking than water-liking. This means that, after a suitable length of time cooking, the spice flavours will have dissolved in the oil and be associated with any meat present, with very little in the water/veg mush. To obtain a gravy with the maximum amount of flavour throughout, the oil and water have to mix. Short of adding an emulsifier (or thickener), heating the gravy until the right amount of water and oil are present to form a homogeneous mix is recommended, you can see this happening, as the oil just starts to separate. Add back a little water, and stir the gravy, then serve. Read the article about fugacity in my blog, if you dare!. It might make sense

Hope this helps

cheers

Waaza

Edited October 8, 2006 by waaza (log)

[cnspriggs]

Hi waaza!

Thanks for this and your blog was great! I had a feeling the time couldn't possibly be right. I will try for a 20+min fry of the onions without the spices in the pan and report back.

Hi cn,

Frying whole spices is common in some regional cuisines in India, especially Bengali, where they use panch poran in most things (or so it seems  ). In Bengali cooking, a mix of the five seeds, fenugreek, cumin, fennel, kalongi (usually mis-identified as onion seed) and radhuni (wild celery seed, often replaced with brown mustard seed, but these can pop violently)  are fried for a minute or so at the beginning of making a dish.

Many Indian dishes (especially N Indian) start by frying onions until they are golden, this usually takes about 20 minutes, but can take up to an hour without browning, see:my food blog

getting the right temperature is vital, and you will have to experiment, choosing the right pan is important, heavy being better (IMHO than thin-walled) and watch for draughts around the pan, which can cool.

Another alternative is to do it in two stages, do a hot oil extract of the spice/s, then, when happy, sieve out the whole spices and use the oil for frying the onions, etc. Note that if adding tomatoes at a later stage, you should have added all (or most) of the other spices by this time (again see my blog....read about Kow)

The point about the oil glistening concerns the distribution of flavours in the dish. All spice flavours are derived from volatile chemicals which are more oil-liking than water-liking. This means that, after a suitable length of time cooking, the spice flavours will have dissolved in the oil and be associated with any meat present, with very little in the water/veg mush. To obtain a gravy with the maximum amount of flavour throughout, the oil and water have to mix. Short of adding an emulsifier (or thickener), heating the gravy until the right amount of water and oil are present to form a homogeneous mix is recommended, you can see this happening, as the oil just starts to separate. Add back a little water, and stir the gravy, then serve. Read the article about fugacity in my blog, if you dare!. It might make sense 

Hope this helps

cheers

Waaza

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[scott123]

Cnspriggs, an onion can be caramelized in 8 minutes, but it involves a few factors, the most important of which is the quantity of fat/oil you're using.

A single layer of onion in a wide pan will cook faster than an overcrowded pan.

A fresh onion will have more water content/take longer to cook.

A thinly walled, harder to slice onion will take longer to soften/cook than a less fibrous, thicker walled onion. A larger onion can sometimes be more fibrous, but not always. Small onions can be tough as well.

A finer dice will take less time to cook than a larger one.

Fat is key, though. Restaurant style Indian cooking isn't fat phobic. For good Indian cooking, you want to use a ton. I'd say use at least 1/4 C. fat for every onion.

Additionally, the fat content will give you the 'glistening' the recipe is referring to.

Not only is canola oil one of the worst tasting oils, recent studies have revealed it to be much less healthy than commonly perceived. Ghee is the perfect choice, but if you don't have it on hand, I'd suggest a much better tasting oil like soybean or even peanut. I'm sure you're local Indian restaurant is using soybean oil, not canola.

Waaza, the onion frying experiment in your blog is quite interesting, but I noticed one major flaw. The rate of evaporation is drastically higher in a shallow/wide saute pan than a beaker. In a real world setting, the water evaporation data will vary greatly from yours. Onions initially release a lot of water (more if the onion is fresh), and an open pan (rather than a closed beaker) drives this moisture away quickly. After that, the rate at which the onion releases liquid/rate at which this liquid is evaporated slows considerably.

Not only is the shape of the pan play a critical role in moisture evaporation, but the number of layers of onions are important as well. A single layer of onions will create an entirely different graph than 3 or 4 layers stacked on top of one another.

[waaza]

thanks Scott for your reply and interest.

I think I would agree that the shape of the pan may make a difference, but have not data to say one way or the other (yet!), another experiment, perhaps. However, I must point out that the temperature of the oil was always above 100°C (apart from when the cold onion was first placed in the beaker) and therefore loss is by boiling and not evaporation, maybe you meant boiling? Secondly, I did point out that we would not normally cover the onion in oil, but as observed, the only bits of the onion that turned brown were out of the oil, so maybe this is important to the browning process?

Your comments would be welcome.

cheers

Waaza

ps I've also experimented with garlic and ginger, with similar, but slightly non-linear relationships, to be added to the blog as soon as I can.

Do you have experimental data to back up your claims?

Edited October 10, 2006 by waaza (log)

[Hawthorne]

Not only is canola oil one of the worst tasting oils, recent studies have revealed it to be much less healthy than commonly perceived.  Ghee is the perfect choice, but if you don't have it on hand, I'd suggest a much better tasting oil like soybean or even peanut.  I'm sure you're local Indian restaurant is using soybean oil, not canola.

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How interesting you should say this.

Since cheap veg oils have been taken over by soy, I have to be obsessively careful about buying oil, because soy smells and tastes, to me, of rotting fish.

I can't even eat pork fed on soy meal. We bought a locker pig, and I was anticipating it with considerable anxiety, and then couldn't eat any of it. Even the ham and bacon.

When I first discovered this, I assumed that my oil had spoiled, but it turns out that all soybean fat/oil products taste the same to me, even up to soy fed meat. Even heavily seasoned, say as sausage, this off flavour comes through.

I use a lot of canola, which I find to be neutral taste wise (though it adds nothing), but also ghee, peanut, olive and on occasion even grapeseed oil, also taste neutral but spendier.

And, of course, beef fat, bacon grease, leaf lard and other non PC options :-)

I particularly like ghee, when I've remembered to make it ...

[cnspriggs]

Well the first experiment I tried was moderately successful. I decided if the key was to get the water out of the onion I would first cook the onion on a non stick pan without any oil until they were quite dry. There was no browning at all at during this processes but the onion sure did look dry by the end. Then I added the oil and browning came on quickly and evenly-no brown edges with white insides. I added the seeds after the onions were moderately brown so they would also get fried but not for so long that they had no choice to burn. The tomato and rest of the steps went well. Will try a few more variations on the method soon.

As for the oil-at present I'm happy with canola. I also find it quite neutral and when I don't have ghee on hand canola is working for me. However in the future perhaps I'll do an oil taste test and see if anything will replace it.

[Gabriel Lewis]

Hello Cnspriggs, good to see that you are attempting some Indian food at home!

Caramelizing onions to create a base for a dish is a technique very common in Indian cooking. Once you learn it, it is very easy to apply in many different situations, especially when you want to create that special flavor profile it gives. Most of what I have learned has been initially from instructions in cook books, and then from experimentation on my own. I did once convince an Indian friend of mines mother to give me a few lessons, but she didn't seem to understand that I wanted to learn more than I want to eat (we did have a great chapati making lesson though).

I don't think I have ever seen anyone dry-cook onions before caramelizing them, but I know you can achieve a perfect result without dry-frying first. If I were to cook the dish you have described above, I would probably throw the cumin seeds into very hot oil for 10-15 seconds, or until they turned a dark shader of brown. I would add the mustard seeds at this step too, and immediately cover the pan with a lid. They pop very vigorously at first, and I usually move on to the next step (typically adding onions or something else that will lower the temperature of the pan) when the popping has subsided to intermittent popping and the mustards seeds have turned grey. If your seeds continue to pop after you add the onions it is probably because you added them too early and not all of them had a chance to pop, and thus started to pop again when the temperature was high enough. You could also add seeds at the end of the caramelization stage, but I wouldn't recommend this at it is trickier to do. You only have a very short window of time between full caramelization and burnt and you have to add the next ingredient to cool down the pan before your onions burn. It is also tricky to ensure that all the onions are fully caramelized, and that there is virtually no water left in the onions.

I would then add the onions, and cook them stirring constantly on fairly high heat until they had caramelized. This typically takes me about 20 minutes for a standard sized dish that has 1-2 white onions in it. They require less attention at first, but as they lose more and more water they are more prone to burning. When they start to stick together monitor them closely, as they are nearing your desired product.

The amount of oil is essential for proper caramelization as mentioned by others. Lean on the heavy side, the onions shouldn't look coated in oil so much as swimming in a shallow layer. Your pan should be big enough for minimum overlap. Cutting onions of uniform size is also important. My prefered way to cut onions for caramelizing is in very thin slices from an onion halved length wise. I seperate these slices before I add them to the oil, thinning any of the the thicker slices from the lower layers of the onion. I have read that in India they are pounded to a paste, but that this does not work well with western onions which have a much higher water content.

As to your choice of cooking fat, any oil or fat suitable for higher heat cooking (not olive) should work. Personally, I prefer corn or peanut, and coconut, sesame (different from chinese sesame), mustard, and ghee for special applications. I tend to shy away from the newer oils and those pressed at high temperatures.

The "oil glistens on top" indicator was explained very well by Wazaa, you will come to recognize it fairly quickly with experience. Indicidentally tomatoes fried in golden/caramelized onions is a wonderful combination (best when the cooking fat is ghee I say!). One of my favorite dals has a tadka made with ghee, golden onions, tomatoes, and panch poran and it is exquisite.

Terrific experiments Waaza, I was especially intrigued by the observation that onions degrade so quickly after being cut. I often prep my onions 20-30minutes in advance, and have never noticed any bitterness, but a subtle difference would be hard to detect in most of the food I cook. Is this something you can detect in a side by side comparison? And would the onions degrade the same way cut up in a bowl as they would immersed in water?

I learned your point about the flavor being in the fat well one time when I overzealously defatted a pork vindaloo - nothing could be done to save it.

[cnspriggs]

Hi Gabriel

Thanks for the reply! My cook book is insistent that the mustard seeds do not pop because if they are popping then they are burning and burning either the mustard seeds or the cumin is to be avoided. Curious as to everyones thoughts on this. This is why I've been frustrated by the onion part because I find if I try to carmelize the onions in 8 mins as per instructed the seeds that were already in the pan were burning by the end of the 8 minutes. As for adding the seeds after the onions have started cooking I was thinking along the lines that if the onions take 20 mins I would add the seeds at around 15 minutes into the onion cooking so the seeds have time to cook before the onions are finished.

Cheers!

If I were to cook the dish you have described above, I would probably throw the cumin seeds into very hot oil for 10-15 seconds, or until they turned a dark shader of brown. I would add the mustard seeds at this step too, and immediately cover the pan with a lid. They pop very vigorously at first, and I usually move on to the next step (typically adding onions or something else that will lower the temperature of the pan) when the popping has subsided to intermittent popping and the mustards seeds have turned grey. If your seeds continue to pop after you add the onions it is probably because you added them too early and not all of them had a chance to pop, and thus started to pop again when the temperature was high enough. You could also add seeds at the end of the caramelization stage, but I wouldn't recommend this at it is trickier to do. You only have a very short window of time between full caramelization and burnt and you have to add the next ingredient to cool down the pan before your onions burn. It is also tricky to ensure that all the onions are fully caramelized, and that there is virtually no water left in the onions.

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[Grub]

I'm afraid I've got nothing to contribute, but just wanted to say that this is an excellent thread. I never felt very comfortable, cooking onions -- never felt as if I knew what I was doing... These posts go a long way to explain things. Very cool. Thanks.

[Gabriel Lewis]

I don't know about your cookbook, I have heard very good things about the restaurant and chef in vancouver, but have never heard anything authority say that if the mustard seeds are popping they are burning. In fact, pretty much every recipe I have cooked in which whole mustard seeds are an ingredient involves spooning the mustard seeds into very hot oil and letting them pop. Usually to do this I get the oil very hot (just below smoking, but this varies by oil) and toss the seeds into the oil, trying to make sure that no seeds do not fall into oil. I then quickly cover the pan as these litttle buggers pop quite violenty. Once covered, I listen to the frequency of popping and once it has dropped from vigorous popping to more intermittent pops (at this point the seeds should be gray), I uncover the pan and procede with the next step. It takes a little while to get all the variables right and learn how to work off the different cues, but with a little practice it won't take long how to get the desired effect out of your pan, stove, oil, etc.

When you throw seeds into hot oil you aren't really cooking them in the same sense that one cooks a piece of meat or a vegetable. As wazaa explains very well in his blog, many of the natural compounds found in spices are much more soluble in fats than they are in water. Thus when you throw the hot spices into hot oil, you are essentially infusing the oil with the flavor of the spices, the basic character of the spices also change due to some chemical changes that occur at high temperatures. This does not take very long at all, the oil is usually very hot (solubility increases with temperature) and the flavor of the spicse are quickly extracted.

The chemical change evoked by throwing the spicse into hot oil is sort of the same as the difference between a raw piece of meat and say, a seared steak. I don't know a lot about the details but the important part is that you have released the flavor of the spices into the oil, and changed how they taste. Now that the flavor is in the oil it is in liquid form, and can spread throughout the dish and do things like coat the piece of meat in your curry to make it taste so good.

On the point of your specific recipe, I don't think I have ever cooked a dish where there a hot spices fried in the oil before caramelizing. This is probably for the reasons you encountered; as the water is fried off there is little buffer left between the seeds and too much heat and they start to burn. I have sort of learned what you are doing in the recipe from your descriptions, but am not exactly sure. Perhaps you could post the steps involved in the first half of the recipe (or pm me if posting was inappropriate, I am unsure). I might be able to understand the author's intentions, or come up with some adjustments that might help you.

Grub - I know exactly how you used to feel. I love Indian food, and through a lot of practice my understanding has improved. I know that back at the beginning the detailed conceptual background was always what I craved the most. I am very pleased to be able to share some of what I have learnt. If you have any questions, please don't be afraid to ask! I will answer to the best of my ability.

[waaza]

Not only is canola oil one of the worst tasting oils, recent studies have revealed it to be much less healthy than commonly perceived.  Ghee is the perfect choice, but if you don't have it on hand, I'd suggest a much better tasting oil like soybean or even peanut.  I'm sure you're local Indian restaurant is using soybean oil, not canola.

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How interesting you should say this.

Since cheap veg oils have been taken over by soy, I have to be obsessively careful about buying oil, because soy smells and tastes, to me, of rotting fish.

Interesting. Many seasoned tasters have reported the same thing, and leveled the blame at one particular omega three (chemists call it omega 15!) C18 fatty acid found in soybean oil, I think (I don't have access to my book at the moment).

Interesting that C18:2 fatty acids give roast/toast type flavours, and emphasises the importance of choosing the cooking oil/fat carefully.

Like you, I use rape seed oil, and have done so for 25 years, I find it healthy and without flavour. I use it in all my experiments when frying, and always find I get a pleasant 'french fry' aroma with it, even when cooking non-potato ingredients! I have never used soybean oil, and would definitely never use peanut oil, because of peoples nut allergies and possible aflatoxin contamination.

cheers

Waaza

[Hawthorne]

Not only is canola oil one of the worst tasting oils, recent studies have revealed it to be much less healthy than commonly perceived.  Ghee is the perfect choice, but if you don't have it on hand, I'd suggest a much better tasting oil like soybean or even peanut.  I'm sure you're local Indian restaurant is using soybean oil, not canola.

←

How interesting you should say this.Since cheap veg oils have been taken over by soy, I have to be obsessively careful about buying oil, because soy smells and tastes, to me, of rotting fish.

Interesting. Many seasoned tasters have reported the same thing, and leveled the blame at one particular omega three (chemists call it omega 15!) C18 fatty acid found in soybean oil, I think (I don't have access to my book at the moment). Interesting that C18:2 fatty acids give roast/toast type flavours, and emphasises the importance of choosing the cooking oil/fat carefully.Like you, I use rape seed oil, and have done so for 25 years, I find it healthy and without flavour. I use it in all my experiments when frying, and always find I get a pleasant 'french fry' aroma with it, even when cooking non-potato ingredients! I have never used soybean oil, and would definitely never use peanut oil, because of peoples nut allergies and possible aflatoxin contamination.cheersWaaza

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It's nice to know I'm not totally out of step here :-) I was surprised to hear that people have this problem with rape/canola! lol!One reason I went back to making my own mayonnaise was the difficulty of finding commercial mayo not made with soy. It's just easier to make it myself.Other than the soy and hydrogenated fats, I use just about every other kind of fat/grease/oil available to me, depending on what I'm cooking. I like peanut oil for some things, but am not cooking for strangers, of course. We don't even entertain much :-)I do get through a lot of rape seed oil, as the flavour is neutral to our taste, though it's kind of dull for some things.

[waaza]

Terrific experiments Waaza, I was especially intrigued by the observation that onions degrade so quickly after being cut. I often prep my onions 20-30minutes in advance, and have never noticed any bitterness, but a subtle difference would be hard to detect in most of the food I cook. Is this something you can detect in a side by side comparison? And would the onions degrade the same way cut up in a bowl as they would immersed in water?

I learned your point about the flavor being in the fat well one time when I overzealously defatted a pork vindaloo - nothing could be done to save it.

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regarding the onions, the reaction is really in two steps, the enzymes react (or help produce) the pungency, and the water hydrolyses the products. So water will not help the situation, but make it worse. The only way of reducing the pungency and off-flavours is to add an acid (say lemon/lime juice or vinegar) which may hinder the enzyme, as in browning cut fruit.

cheers

Waaza

[it's 5 pm somewhere!]

I grew up with Indian food. when comparing family techniques to well regarded Indian cookbook authors, I have to say that I think many cooking times, especially for the preliminary steps, are very short estimates. (I also often double or triple the flavorings and spices in ratio to the meat/veg/main ingredient.) I usually put in the whole spices after I brown fry the onions. (This is Jule Sahni's terms for cooking the onions. You aren't carmelizing them in the Western sense, because you are not slow cooking to develop the sugar and make them golden. Instead, you are cooking at a medium high heat and aiming for a rich brown color.) I think the tips above about type of pan, amount of oil, and ratio of onion to oil are all good. Generally, I use at least 3 onions sliced, a large pot (not non stick) 4-8 quart, plenty of regular vegetable oil. Depending on the wateriness of the onions, it takes 10-30 minutes, more or less. My family always stresses that the more you cook the onion tomato mixture, the better and richer your final dish will take. Then I add the whole spice, then ginger-garlic, then tomato. Once I add the tomato, I can easily cook it for 20-30 minutes again, or longer depending on volume, pan, etc. I have some dishes where I add the whole spices first, and I have not noticed any burnt taste from the spices. different regional cooking will use chopped onion and onion from the food processor, before and after cooking.

the tips I have found most useful when adapting cookbook recipes to my expectations for how the dish should turn out: double the onion, ginger garlic, spices, and cook the masala for much longer than recommended.

[waaza]

you bring up many interesting points, 'it's 5 pm'

your liking for the longer cooked-deeper flavour dishes may be a preference born in childhood, 'no-one makes it like mom' sort of thing. Its very understandable to have parent's cooking be the benchmark. However, as you have discussed, other cooks/authors see life and cooking differently, those that have actually cooked their own recipes, that is. Tis apparent not all of them have!

Your liking for things to have a long cooking time allows the full development of flavours, not possible with shortened versions. However, one reason you may be adding twice the flavourings could be due to losses incurred from the prolonged cooking times. Swings and roundabouts, I suppose. I've been working on calculating the losses likely, with some surprising results, to be blogged as soon as I can.

One reason I think cooks shorten times is what's seen on TV, there, because of time constraints, onions are never properly cooked, and the whole mess goes into the oven only lightly cooked. Never have I seen anyone mention about the importance of prolonged cooking of onions/garlic/ginger/chilli/tomatoes. I think we are due that soon.

cheers

Waaza

[cnspriggs]

I have to say that so far what you are saying about cooking the onion tomato mixtures is what I am finding to be the most successful at making the recipes from this book taste more closely like what I get at the restaurant. I find the spice and quantity level generally ok. Strangly I'm still finding that dry cooking the onions a bit before adding the oil is working very well and for sure adding spice mixtures after onions are well cooked is also working well. When work slows down in a couple weeks I'll try a couple side by side comparisons of the methods and report back.

cheers!

I grew up with Indian food.  when comparing family techniques to well regarded Indian cookbook authors, I have to say that I think many cooking times, especially for the preliminary steps, are very short estimates.  (I also often double or triple the flavorings and spices in ratio to the meat/veg/main ingredient.)  I usually put in the whole spices after I brown fry the onions.  (This is Jule Sahni's terms for cooking the onions.  You aren't carmelizing them in the Western sense, because you are not slow cooking to develop the sugar and make them golden.  Instead, you are cooking at a medium high heat and aiming for a rich brown color.)  I think the tips above about type of pan, amount of oil, and ratio of onion to oil are all good.  Generally, I use at least 3 onions sliced, a large pot (not non stick) 4-8 quart, plenty of regular vegetable oil.  Depending on the wateriness of the onions, it takes 10-30 minutes, more or less.  My family always stresses that the more you cook the onion tomato mixture, the better and richer your final dish will take.  Then I add the whole spice, then ginger-garlic, then tomato.  Once I add the tomato, I can easily cook it for 20-30 minutes again, or longer depending on volume, pan, etc.  I have some dishes where I add the whole spices first, and I have not noticed any burnt taste from the spices.    different regional cooking will use chopped onion and onion from the food processor, before and after cooking.

  the tips I have found most useful when adapting cookbook recipes to my expectations for how the dish should turn out:  double the onion, ginger garlic, spices, and cook the masala for much longer than recommended.

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[it's 5 pm somewhere!]

I agree that my expectation of certain dishes leads me to tinker with the recipes. for dishes that I didn't grow up with, I tinker less.

I have done enough experimenting with long and short cooking times and amounts of spices that I don't think I need to double the spices because of longer cooking times. I haven't done the kind of serious experimenting that you have, though.

I have noticed that for me, I often need to add cooking time to recipes, not just Indian ones. I am sure different stoves, etc. play a role as well.

I once read an interesting thing about how different onions are in India as compared to the US, in terms of water, how they cook up, and how they reduce. I imagine that differences in produce across countires and regions, and whether you buy them at a farmers market or grocery store, etc. can also play a big role in differences in how something cooks up.

[waaza]

I am sure you are correct about different cookers, pots, ambient temperatures, etc. These are some of the variables we seem less inclined to control in a domestic situation, but which, I feel, will be seen to be very important in professional kitchens as we learn more about the cooking processes.

Your comment about ingredients from different countries is another excellent point. On a recent trip to India, I noticed significant differences in meat (Indian being generally tougher) vegetables (although some could have been out of season) and dairy products (generally Indian dahi and cream seemed very sour to my western taste buds). Onions in India were reddy/pink but other wise very similar to ones I choose in the UK, garlic and ginger were less plump. All this adds up to a situation where an Indian dish cooked with western ingredients would be sweeter than the desi equivalent. This, together with the longer cooking times necessary for Indian meat and the differences start to add up, if vegetable oil was used instead of desi ghee, with all the other differences I wonder if the western cooked dish would be recognised on the Indian sub-continent.

Does it make much of a difference which ingredients are used? I'd say so. My western attemps are often just the sum of the parts, whereas Indian-made dishes seemed to be more than the sum of the parts, all seemed to fit together. An example is using cassia leaves instead of the often misused bay leaf for flavouring rice, for example. The cassia leaf marries seemlessly with basmati rice, the bay leaf fights it a little, IMHO.

cheers

Waaza