Momofuku Ssäm Bar (2006–2007)

[Megan Blocker]

why can't he make his place a Korean Chipotle at lunch?  what's wrong with that?  what does that have to do with dinner?

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Personally, myself, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. But that still doesn't negate the need for that information to be disseminated - if someone as well-informed and interested in food as Mimi Sheraton wasn't aware that she was going to a Korean Chipotle for lunch (again, I think it's MOST important that she still didn't like it - had it been excellent fast food, her opinion would most likely have been different), then maybe it's good that she's saying so, so people will know.

After all, if you're a casual follower of the restaurant scene, you might hear that Momofuku Ssam is supposed to be great, and decide to head there for lunch one day while you're in the 'hood, and be sorely disappointed. Now that's a bit less likely to happen, no?

[docsconz]

1.  Mimi wrote that Chang was "overrated" based upon one item.  so, yeah, she did make an overreaching assumption...blurb or not. .

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Actually, what Mimi did was what most people do. She went to a restaurant that has a lot of positive buzz, and ordered like a normal person. She wasn't impressed, and probably won't go back.

Obviously we have higher expectations for Mimi Sheraton, but she's no longer the most powerful critic in New York. She's just a private citizen. Just like the rest of us, she is not obligated to pay multiple visits and eat her way through the whole menu before passing judgment. And just like the rest of us, she is not obligated to turn every restaurant visit into a research project. She's spending her own money. Whether it's $7 or $70, if she doesn't like it, she won't be back—and she'll probably tell her friends. Which is exactly what she did.

Defenders of Momofuku Ssam Bar have something in common with the defenders of other unusual restaurants, like WD-50 and Blue Hill. When someone says they don't like it, the defenders instantly assume that the detractors "don't get it." Just look at the responses on those respective threads whenever someone posts a negative review.

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I harshly criticized the lunch ssam up the thread (I think the hoisin is too sweet).

the problem is that Mimi didn't go to the restaurant this thread is about. she went to a Korean Chipotle. it's two different restaurants under the same roof. unless one is a culinary Platonist...I don't see what the problem is with that. Mimi went to the wrong restaurant, it's as simple as that. it's just like confusing Masa and Bar Masa. Chang doesn't have the wherewithal for two separate dining rooms in that space. so?

having been to dinner there a number of times, I can tell you that "normal people" aren't ordering burritos at dinner. (except for buns and lettuce bowls, they're the only option at lunch.)

I realize this is blasphemy...but it's really as simple as this: Mimi Sheraton didn't do her homework.

edit: the "but she's now a private citizen and doesn't have to do her homework" line doesn't fly for the simple reason that if she was just a private citizen, we wouldn't be bothering to have this discussion. if she wasn't Mimi Sheraton no one would give a ______'s ___________ what she had to say. so whether fair or not, she's not merely a private citizen. not so long as her criticisms have her name signed to them.

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I think Mimi did do her homework. She admitted that she didn't go at the time she was "supposed to." She went at another time and had something that she particularly did not enjoy and made mention of it on a blog. Despite the fact that may not have been what the restaurant is most well known for, why shouldn't it have been good and enjoyable at whatever price point he's serving it at? I'm personally not arguing whether it is good or bad - I haven't had that item or been there for lunch. Basically all she said is that not everything Chang has a hand in turns to gold. He has some pretty good company there. BTW, a really good burrito is one of my favorite comfort foods.

[kiliki]

I'm headed out to NYC next week for vacation and this restaurant is on my list of places to go. What would be the best day(s) & time to go, so to avoid major lineups?

I only went there once, on a recent visit, and we only waited 20 minutes for a table on a Sunday night (around 7:30).

This was high on my list of places to visit, too, but you can add me to the list of those that weren't blown away. Nothing was bad-we followed our servers recommendations and had the buns, the pickles, the raw scallop, the Edwards ham and the roasted mushroom salad-but it was all just pretty good, not great. They also forgot our last two dishes, and totally ignored us (and our empty wine and water glasses) for 45 minutes, before coming and asking if we wanted dessert. Then we pointed out we were missing almost half our meal, but we actually said that it was okay, we'd just take our check. The other dishes had come really slowly, they took almost no time to eat, and frankly, we were bored and tired of listening to the first date next to us at the communal table. They did bring the missing dishes right away, and they comped them, so I guess it was okay. I'm not sorry I tried it but wouldn't bother going back (no big deal, you can't blow everyone away). I don't think this was a case of overly high expectation, since we visited a number of places highly recommended on this board (from cocktails at Death and Co and Pegu to lunch at Jean George) and were very happy with all of them.

[docsconz]

Defenders of Momofuku Ssam Bar have something in common with the defenders of other unusual restaurants, like WD-50 and Blue Hill. When someone says they don't like it, the defenders instantly assume that the detractors "don't get it." Just look at the responses on those respective threads whenever someone posts a negative review.

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As a staunch fan of WD-50, I have come to realize that that restaurant is not for everyone as people whose opinions I value have had meals that they have not enjoyed as much as I have enjoyed mine for whatever reason. I think the food there "speaks" to some people and not others - such is life. The same applies here. The food is only one element of a restaurant experience, albeit the most important one - at least for most of the people who are members of the eGullet Society. Nevertheless, the perception of a meal may and often is influenced by many elements besides the food itself. Like WD-50, Momfuku Ssam Bar is idiosyncratic enough in its delivery of the food as to effect the perception of one's meal. If the whole vibe resonates, one will likely enjoy it very much. If not, one will be less likely to fully enjoy it.

[oakapple]

the problem is that Mimi didn't go to the restaurant this thread is about. she went to a Korean Chipotle.  it's two different restaurants under the same roof.  unless one is a culinary Platonist...I don't see what the problem is with that.  Mimi went to the wrong restaurant, it's as simple as that.  it's just like confusing Masa and Bar Masa.  Chang doesn't have the wherewithal for two separate dining rooms in that space.  so?

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Let me see if I've got this straight. The place with the identical name, the identical head chef, the identical kitchen, and the identical dining room, is not the place this thread is about? Where would that thread be?

"The Emperor Has No Clothes" is an over-worked phrase, but I have to trot it out here. David Chang is accountable for what is produced in that restaurant, at whatever hour it is produced, no matter who is doing the cooking for him. He doesn't have two restaurants in that space, he has one. If lunch sucks, he's accountable. Mimi Sheraton made clear what she ordered, and when she ordered it. She also made clear that she knew the "scene" is at a different time of day.

Chang made the strategic decision to serve sucky food at lunch, and a major critic called him on the carpet. That's how the ball bounces.;

Edited May 22, 2007 by oakapple (log)

[Nathan]

1. Chang doesn't serve "sucky food" at lunch. it just doesn't transcend the cost ($7-$10!!!!).

2. Mimi did say that Chang is "overrated" based on one lunch item. that's problematic. her words, not mine.

3. considering that if she merely read Bruni's review or followed Eater she would have known that the lunch ssam is not a "signature dish"...which she insisted upon despite being told otherwise by the staff (like I said, part of the problem is that "ssam" is a broad category)....I do think it's fair to say that she didn't do her homework.

[ulterior epicure]

1.  Chang doesn't serve "sucky food" at lunch.  it just doesn't transcend the cost ($7-$10!!!!).

I don't think that Mimi expected it to...

3.  considering that if she merely read Bruni's review or followed Eater she would have known that the lunch ssam is not a "signature dish"...which she insisted upon despite being told otherwise by the staff (like I said, part of the problem is that "ssam" is a broad category)....I do think it's fair to say that she didn't do her homework.

Signature dish or not, Mimi's complaint wasn't about the taste or whether or not she personally agreed/appreciated the food. Rather, her observation (complaint) was solely about the quality of the food's execution. I don't go to Chipotle hoping or expecting to pay for a $6 over-greasy and soggy burrito, although that is what I may get. (For the record, I never have.) Edited May 22, 2007 by ulterior epicure (log)

[spaetzle_maker]

Let me see if I've got this straight. The place with the identical name, the identical head chef, the identical kitchen, and the identical dining room, is not the place this thread is about? Where would that thread be?

Identical name and head chef, yes. The kitchen is the same physical kitchen, but it is staffed differently at night verses the daytime. The dining room: again, the same physical location, except at night, the dining room is staffed with servers.

Another night/day difference is what I spend. I'll easily drop 75 bucks for dinner (tax and tip included) but only spend 12 dollars for lunch.

But it's true: The roof is the same regardless of the time of day or night.

I think Mimi did do her homework. She admitted that she didn't go at the time she was "supposed to."

I think she's just admitting to not doing her homework.

[oakapple]

The kitchen is the same physical kitchen, but it is staffed differently at night verses the daytime.

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That's true of many restaurants.

[spaetzle_maker]

The kitchen is the same physical kitchen, but it is staffed differently at night verses the daytime.

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That's true of many restaurants.

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To clarify my point: the cooks executing the dinner service are not the same cooks that are assembling burritos.

[Nathan]

1.  Chang doesn't serve "sucky food" at lunch.  it just doesn't transcend the cost ($7-$10!!!!).

I don't think that Mimi expected it to...

3.  considering that if she merely read Bruni's review or followed Eater she would have known that the lunch ssam is not a "signature dish"...which she insisted upon despite being told otherwise by the staff (like I said, part of the problem is that "ssam" is a broad category)....I do think it's fair to say that she didn't do her homework.

Signature dish or not, Mimi's complaint wasn't about the taste or whether or not she personally agreed/appreciated the food. Rather, her observation (complaint) was solely about the quality of the food's execution. I don't go to Chipotle hoping or expecting to pay for a $6 over-greasy and soggy burrito, although that is what I may get. (For the record, I never have.)

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this is what she wrote:

"The staff assured me that at night it is an entirely different place, menu and all, but some of his touted specialties were on the lunch menu. Most especially, there was "The Original Momofuku Ssam" with Berkshire pork, pickled shiitake, red kimchi puree, etc." So I ordered it."

the only Chang "specialty" on the lunch menu is the Berkshire pork bun....and I'd argue that the trademark dishes have long since surpassed those (good) pork buns. it's blatantly obvious from that line alone that she's unfamiliar with the restaurant. (I don't have a problem with that...but like I said, this is Mimi Sheraton (which was referred to above as a "major critic" in the present tense)...whether fairly or not, her words convey the weight of authority and therefore require more out of her. not unless she wants to start commenting anonymously.

"It was a messy, stewy wrap of steam table foods, much overcooked and characterless. What flavor interest there was came from the combination of many things together, and from my own generous addition of hot sauce. I opened the pancake to evaluate each item separately and found nothing more distinguished than anything I could get in a standard Tex-Mex wrap."

I think she got a bad-apple here. The lunch ssam, although too sweet for my taste, isn't normally "overcooked and characterless"....as has been oft said here, even four star restaurants blow dishes. I don't doubt that she didn't find any of the individual ingredients "more distinguished than anything I could get in a standard Tex-Mex wrap"...but then Chipotle charges $8-9 for their burritos in NY too....and they have much better economies of scale in their sourcing.

to me it's as simple as this, Chang likes to have two different restaurants in the same space at different times (this isn't unheard of in NY btw), one is a decent, cheap fast-food operation, one is something else entirely.

Again, what's the meta-objection to this?

[Nathan]

The kitchen is the same physical kitchen, but it is staffed differently at night verses the daytime.

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That's true of many restaurants.

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To clarify my point: the cooks executing the dinner service are not the same cooks that are assembling burritos.

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They're even different...in a manner that is visually apparent. to put it delicately, they look like any EV quasi-fast food kitchen. at dinner, the kitchen is far more "multicultural"

[ulterior epicure]

Again, what's the meta-objection to this?

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Nothing.

I think you summed up our gap here:

I think she got a bad-apple here.

[Nathan]

fwiw, I think she would be even more scathing over the wraps/burritos at Chipotle. they're significantly worse...for the same price. (Qdoba's a bit better than Chipotle in my recollection.)

Edited May 22, 2007 by Nathan (log)

[spaetzle_maker]

Yes - it sucks if she got a bad apple...

It's been a while since I've gotten one of the rice bowls, but the edamame were always crunchy, the onions were nice, the kimchi and tofu tasty. Ahh... poor mimi.

What are "table foods"?

Edited May 22, 2007 by spaetzle_maker (log)

[oakapple]

to me it's as simple as this, Chang likes to have two different restaurants in the same space at different times (this isn't unheard of in NY btw), one is a decent, cheap fast-food operation, one is something else entirely.

Again, what's the meta-objection to this?

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None from me.

But he needs to realize that Mimi Sheraton probably isn't the first, and she surely won't be the last, person to visit the "lunch restaurant," expecting something more like the "dinner restaurant." That's what the "normal" patron is going to assume, and Mimi is surely more savvy than most. As Chang's reputation builds, he cannot continue to assume that every visitor knows "the history" of the restaurant.

I don't run Chang's business for him. He's going to have to decide whether he wants to keep deflating people's expectations. There's clearly no reason why some of the dinner menu couldn't be served at lunch also. The fact that different people are in the kitchen at lunch is irrelevant. That's what recipes and training are for. Jean-Georges Vongerichten has built a whole industry out of recipes that other people execute on his behalf. As Chang opens more & more Momofukus all over town, he's going to have to find ways to ensure that the product doesn't take a nosedive when he is physically absent.

[Nathan]

to me it's as simple as this, Chang likes to have two different restaurants in the same space at different times (this isn't unheard of in NY btw), one is a decent, cheap fast-food operation, one is something else entirely.

Again, what's the meta-objection to this?

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None from me.

But he needs to realize that Mimi Sheraton probably isn't the first, and she surely won't be the last, person to visit the "lunch restaurant," expecting something more like the "dinner restaurant." That's what the "normal" patron is going to assume, and Mimi is surely more savvy than most. As Chang's reputation builds, he cannot continue to assume that every visitor knows "the history" of the restaurant.

I don't run Chang's business for him. He's going to have to decide whether he wants to keep deflating people's expectations. There's clearly no reason why some of the dinner menu couldn't be served at lunch also. The fact that different people are in the kitchen at lunch is irrelevant. That's what recipes and training are for. Jean-Georges Vongerichten has built a whole industry out of recipes that other people execute on his behalf. As Chang opens more & more Momofukus all over town, he's going to have to find ways to ensure that the product doesn't take a nosedive when he is physically absent.

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I don't disagree.

[weinoo]

The fact that different people are in the kitchen at lunch is irrelevant. That's what recipes and training are for. Jean-Georges Vongerichten has built a whole industry out of recipes that other people execute on his behalf. As Chang opens more & more Momofukus all over town, he's going to have to find ways to ensure that the product doesn't take a nosedive when he is physically absent.

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Actually, the people in the kitchen at lunch are probably the ones prepping what is getting served that night.

I don't think the product at lunch has taken a nosedive at all...it's the same as it was at the beginning...a wrap meant to be eaten as a whole, not dissected. It was delicious the very first time I had one at Noodle Bar when they were experimenting with it, and it still is!

[slkinsey]

This discussion reminds me of some others. Notably, discussions about Grimaldi's Pizzeria in Brooklyn and Grand Sichuan in Manhattan.

If you go to Grimaldi's at just the right time when the oven is at peak temperature and order the right thing, you can get some of the very best pizza in the greater NYC area. On the other hand, if you go at the end of lunchtime after the oven has lost heat and order a pizza with 6 toppings, it won't be special at all. Does this mean that Grimaldi's is overhyped? Well, no. It means that you have to know what you're doing to "get" why it's hype-worthy.

Similarly, we have read plenty of reports in these forums of people who visited Grand Sichuan and wrote "I had the fried rice, chicken lo mein and General Tso's chicken. My neighborhood carry-out is better. I don't see what all the fuss is about." Of course, we would always reply that, if you want to eat what is so good about Grand Sichuan you have to order the right things. Does this mean that Grand Sichuan is overhped? Well, no. It means that you have to order the right things to "get" what is hype-worthy about Grand Sichuan.

It strikes me that Mimi Sheraton's comments are relatively on-target with respect to lunch at MSB, although people might quibble about what she should realistically expect for ten bucks. On the other hand, it does seem to me that her "Chang is overhyped" take on MSB is based on expectations formed from dinner hype. So, this is a bit like ordering a Grimaldi's pizza with extra cheese, pepperoni, sausage and ham at 4:00 on a Tuesday afternoon, or ordering egg rolls and sesame chicken at Grand Sichuan and then declaring that the emperor has no clothes. The fact is that, if you want to get what is hype-worthy about MSB, you have to go at the right time so that you are able to eat the right things. Mimi wasn't "wrong," per se, but she doesn't "get it" either.

[oakapple]

I don't think the product at lunch has taken a nosedive at all...it's the same as it was at the beginning...a wrap meant to be eaten as a whole, not dissected.

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You know...I knew someone would say that, but that's not what I was suggesting. You need to read my post in the context of the whole thread.

What I said was that Ssam Bar is going to attract more & more patrons who don't know—and can't be presumed to know—that the lunch menu is so fundamentally different that it amounts to a separate restaurant. Those patrons will expect to find the kind of food that gets two stars from the Times and a James Beard Rising Star award. They're not going to find it, and they're going to be disappointed—just as Mimi Sheraton was. My "nosedive" comment needs to be read in that light.

I think Sheraton knew that the wrap wasn't meant to be taken apart. She was taking it apart to see how the individual ingredients were prepared—probably an instinctive gesture for someone who used to review restaurants as a professional.

Edited May 22, 2007 by oakapple (log)

[weinoo]

  Mimi wasn't "wrong," per se, but she doesn't "get it" either.

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I think she was both wrong and didn't get it. She said everything was overcooked and characterless, which is not true the times I've had the ssam! And you're not getting kimchee puree and pickled shitakes in a standard tex-mex wrap.

[slkinsey]

I should clarify: She wasn't wrong in suggesting that Chang and MSB wouldn't be worthy of the hype based on the lunch ssam.

[spaetzle_maker]

I think Sheraton knew that the wrap wasn't meant to be taken apart. She was taking it apart to see how the individual ingredients were prepared—probably an instinctive gesture for someone who used to review restaurants as a professional.

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In the rice bowl, you can examine and taste the individual ingredients. The rice bowl is what I've always gotten and the edamame and tofu were always a perfect texture, the kimchi puree was always tasty, the onions crunchy. I don't understand her "characterless" "steamed table food" comments.

She certainly is allowed her opinion, but her experience is not in line with what I have experienced many times over.

(And this isn't to say that I think the lunch menu is comparable to the dinner menu - but the lunch menu doesn't suck for 10 bucks)

[weinoo]

I don't think the product at lunch has taken a nosedive at all...it's the same as it was at the beginning...a wrap meant to be eaten as a whole, not dissected.

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You know...I knew someone would say that, but that's not what I was suggesting. You need to read my post in the context of the whole thread.

What I said was that Ssam Bar is going to attract more & more patrons who don't know—and can't be presumed to know—that the lunch menu is so fundamentally different that it amounts to a separate restaurant. Those patrons will expect to find the kind of food that gets two stars from the Times and a James Beard Rising Star award. They're not going to find it, and they're going to be disappointed—just as Mimi Sheraton was. My "nosedive" comment needs to be read in that light.

I think Sheraton knew that the wrap wasn't meant to be taken apart. She was taking it apart to see how the individual ingredients were prepared—probably an instinctive gesture for someone who used to review restaurants as a professional.

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Well, why shoudn't the patrons know? They know when they go to a place like Per Se that they're gonna drop some major cash. They know when they go to a Grand Sichuan that they're getting some kind of Chinese food. They know when the go to Joe's Shanghai that they're waiting on line to get soup dumplings, so why shouldn't they know when they go to Ssam bar at lunch, they're pretty much getting a ssam?

[weinoo]

She certainly is allowed her opinion, but her experience is not in line with what I have experienced many times over. 

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Exactly.