Momofuku Ssäm Bar (2006–2007)

[Nathan]

yeah, I read that.  she's wrong, but it was an understandable mistake.

she's obviously unfamiliar with the history of Momofuku Ssam.

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You know, it's possible — just possible — that Mimi Sheraton is more up-to-date than you give her credit for. She's not exactly new at this.

It's also possible — just possible — that the bloom is wearing off of David Chang's rose, and not every reaction to his work is going to be 100% rapturous. Ed Levine's post yesterday, though not about the food, is indicative of this trend.

In her note to Eater, Sheraton indicated she was aware that Ssam Bar (like many restaurants) could be different at lunch. But her argument (and how can you disagree with it?) is that if a restaurant is open to paying customers, it is open to criticism if it's serving anything less than its "best."

I'll bet Mimi Sheraton isn't the only person showing up at lunch expecting a purported two-star James Beard rising-star experience. Is every guest supposed to acquire a "history of the restaurant" before they visit?

It also doesn't help that it's a "New Paradigm" restaurant.

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A concept whose very existence is, to date, accepted by only handful of people (and even that may be stretching it).

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I thought the lunch ssam weren't very good..and I said that way up this thread (when it first opened). if Sheraton went to Ssam Bar "at lunch expecting a purported two-star James Beard rising-star experience" then clearly I'm right that she doesn't know the history of Ssam Bar. lunch is intended to be an Asian-accented version of Chipotle or Qdoba. I agree that it doesn't work. so did the public. that's why the restaurant changed dramatically (except at lunch...it's not in a business lunch area where it would be economical to serve the real menu).

although I want to agree with the sentiment that a restaurant should put forth its best at every meal....in reality, educated people don't go to the Wolfgang Puck's chain (modeled on Cheesecake Factory) expecting Spago. in a different context, Giorgio Armani licensed his name to the crap Armani Exchange line, but fashionistas don't confuse them with Armani Collezioni or even Emporio Armani. ditto for Donna Karan (retired anyway)...who sold her interest in her (relatively) cheap DKNY line a long time ago.

[docsconz]

It's also possible — just possible — that the bloom is wearing off of David Chang's rose, and not every reaction to his work is going to be 100% rapturous. Ed Levine's post yesterday, though not about the food, is indicative of this trend.

As much as I was disappointed during my meal there (it was ok, though nothing incredible) and think the restaurant may very well be over-rated, that is not the way I read the Levine piece at all. He still seems to be in the rapturous camp to me.

And for us serious eaters if all we have to do to eat more of Chang & Co.'s delicious food is listen to the most articulate and reluctant chef superstar among us ruminate in one media vehicle or another, than so be it. It's a small price to pay for a great bowl of noodles, a fabulous bowl of soup, a pork shoulder (bo saam) good enough to reduce famous chefs I've brought in to dinner to tears, and the only brussels sprouts I've ever truly loved (it's a seasonal dish, dude, it's off the menu now).

[docsconz]

yeah, I read that.  she's wrong, but it was an understandable mistake.

she's obviously unfamiliar with the history of Momofuku Ssam.

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You know, it's possible — just possible — that Mimi Sheraton is more up-to-date than you give her credit for. She's not exactly new at this.

It's also possible — just possible — that the bloom is wearing off of David Chang's rose, and not every reaction to his work is going to be 100% rapturous. Ed Levine's post yesterday, though not about the food, is indicative of this trend.

In her note to Eater, Sheraton indicated she was aware that Ssam Bar (like many restaurants) could be different at lunch. But her argument (and how can you disagree with it?) is that if a restaurant is open to paying customers, it is open to criticism if it's serving anything less than its "best."

I'll bet Mimi Sheraton isn't the only person showing up at lunch expecting a purported two-star James Beard rising-star experience. Is every guest supposed to acquire a "history of the restaurant" before they visit?

It also doesn't help that it's a "New Paradigm" restaurant.

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A concept whose very existence is, to date, accepted by only handful of people (and even that may be stretching it).

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I thought the lunch ssam weren't very good..and I said that way up this thread (when it first opened). if Sheraton went to Ssam Bar "at lunch expecting a purported two-star James Beard rising-star experience" then clearly I'm right that she doesn't know the history of Ssam Bar. lunch is intended to be an Asian-accented version of Chipotle or Qdoba. I agree that it doesn't work. so did the public. that's why the restaurant changed dramatically (except at lunch...it's not in a business lunch area where it would be economical to serve the real menu).

although I want to agree with the sentiment that a restaurant should put forth its best at every meal....in reality, educated people don't go to the Wolfgang Puck's chain (modeled on Cheesecake Factory) expecting Spago. in a different context, Giorgio Armani licensed his name to the crap Armani Exchange line, but fashionistas don't confuse them with Armani Collezioni or even Emporio Armani. ditto for Donna Karan (retired anyway)...who sold her interest in her (relatively) cheap DKNY line a long time ago.

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The difference with the restaurants you mentioned is that they are in different physical locations. This is the same location for lunch and dinner. It is not unreasonable to expect the same level of quality even if the menu itself is different. besides if the restaurant is so good and in such demand, who's to say that it wouldn't be successful serving the same quality food at lunch? Why dumb it down?

[weinoo]

The difference with the restaurants you mentioned is that they are in different physical locations. This is the same location for lunch and dinner. It is not unreasonable to expect the same level of quality even if the menu itself is different. besides if the restaurant is so good and in such demand, who's to say that it wouldn't be successful serving the same quality food at lunch? Why dumb it down?

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In a way i agree with this...Noodle Bar is ALWAYS packed at lunch.

[oakapple]

if Sheraton went to Ssam Bar "at lunch expecting a purported two-star James Beard rising-star experience" then clearly I'm right that she doesn't know the history of Ssam Bar.

Actually, my interpretation of her note was that she did understand this. But her point was that the average guest visiting at lunch is probably expecting better, and she thinks there's something not quite right about that.

although I want to agree with the sentiment that a restaurant should put forth its best at every meal....in reality, educated people don't go to the Wolfgang Puck's chain (modeled on Cheesecake Factory) expecting Spago.

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Probably not the correct analogy. Guests at Vong have no right to expect a "Jean Georges" experience, even though Jean-Georges Vongerichten has lent his name to both restaurants. But guests at Jean Georges for lunch do expect something approximating four-star food. They would probably not be pleased to discover that the kitchen is serving rice-a-roni and hamburger helper at lunch (which, of course, it is not).

People who closely follow the NYC restaurant scene know that the original concept of Ssam Bar morphed (somewhat by accident) into a very different concept. Mimi Sheraton seems to know this, but even if she does not, it hardly detracts from the merits of her post. The backstory is not something any sane restauranteur should expect his clientele to know.

Consumers generally realize that a different brand name implies a different experience, but the same brand name shouldn't vary wildly depending on the time of day you show up.

Edited May 22, 2007 by oakapple (log)

[Nathan]

I agree with your general point...but the fact remains that despite being told by the staff (implying that she wasn't aware of this) that the dinner menu was entirely different, Sheraton still (understandably) persisted in thinking that the lunch ssam was a trademark dish.

I do think that lunch at Momofuku Ssam is a waste. but, look at it this way, many many many people have confused the Nougatine Room with the Dining Room at Jean Georges. many many people have left the Nougatine Room (especially at lunch) underwhelmed, thinking they had tasted the best Jean Georges had to offer.

the fact of the matter is, Chang offers a $7-$10 lunch and a "real" dinner. anyone who orders the former, expecting the latter, is going to be severely disappointed.

edit: furthermore, its not like Chang is serving absolute crap at lunch. it's as good as any (if not better) $7-10 lunch in the city. he couldn't make it better without charging more. what the heck is wrong with serving a $7-10 lunch and offering a much higher end dinner in the same space? does this violate some sort of Platonic restaurant norm? (Randall Lane was explicitly offended by this.) Sheraton should have looked at her receipt and and figured that maybe she was missing something.

Edited May 22, 2007 by Nathan (log)

[Fat Guy]

While the dinner menu is certainly the star, I think the original Momofuku Ssam wrap with Berkshire pork, onions, edamame, pickled shiitake and red kimchi puree is excellent, and even better are the pork steamed buns.

[Megan Blocker]

I think one important point is that Sheraton just didn't like the meal she had. She didn't say, "It was fine for $7, but what's the big deal?" She said it just wasn't that good. It doesn't matter what expectations you have; if the food isn't good (which is pretty subjective), then it just isn't good. Even if it isn't a signature dish - it should still be good.

That said, I think comparisons to Spago are, for the reasons Doc notes above, moot. This is the same restaurant, the same location, the same purveyors, and the same chef. There's no reason for a drastic change in quality (even if the menu items are different).

[spaetzle_maker]

Everytime I get ready to post, I see someone has written something so similar to what I was going to say

1. Mimi (I've decided to be on a first name basis with her) clearly did not understand the hours of the restaurant. It doesn't even seem like she understands Noodle Bar. Towards the top of her complaint she indicates that nightime is where it's at for both restaurants, falsely implying that there is something different about Noodle Bar in the evening. I'm not a critic, I'm not even in the industry, but I know when to go when I want a banh-mi and chawan mushi and so should Mimi. I've heard the "it's really two restaurants in one" line so many time, I'm almost bored with it. You can't pick up a local magazine or visit a food blog without reading about this restaurant's evolution. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but someone with her credentials should have done more research and have had more first hand experience (gone to Ssam Bar more than once for instance - and it does seem like she went only once during the day, and she should have gone at night time too) before complaining on Eater.

2. You get what you pay for. Lunch is not transcendent, but neither is 10 bucks. For 10 bucks, there may be foods that I like more, but I'm not thinking too hard about this. It's only 10 bucks. (And there are definitely foods that I'll like less for 10 bucks).

3. Two restaurants in one, where one of the restaurants is serving burritos with kimchi is the kind of oddball eccentricity that makes these restaurants so damn charming. Go. Be confused once. And then figure it out (it's not sooo hard) and go again.

On a different note, I've noticed that a lot of people have posted that they are really into the new artichoke dish. I got it and I thought that the artichokes were too pointy, kind of prickly and sharp in my mouth. Has anyone noticed this? I'm wondering if this was just that one time that I had them and if I should give the artichokes another try?

[Megan Blocker]

2.  You get what you pay for.  Lunch is not transcendent, but neither is 10 bucks.  For 10 bucks, there may be foods that I like more, but I'm not thinking too hard about this. It's only 10 bucks.  (And there are definitely foods that I'll like less for 10 bucks).

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I think her unspoken point (that hype and buzz create unrealistic expectations) was actually quite well-served by her methodology. I shouldn't have to (as an eater) go to restaurants four times to have a good meal. To write a well-thought out, broad-ranging review that incorporates a whole menu? Sure. To write a blurb on a disappointing burrito? I really only need to taste it once.

She's not writing a review in the Times; blogs are, by their nature, immediate and changeable. She didn't put this in a paper of record, but chose to send it to a buzz-creating/gathering/disseminating machine, of sorts. Makes sense to me.

I guess my point is that Mimi (to follow your lead ) is thinking of the average eater, who may not do a ton of research (and I sometimes think we become very myopic in thinking that people should be as obsessive/knowledgable about where they eat as we are) before choosing Momofuku Ssam for a meal. You hear someplace is good, you go there, and you have a disappointing meal (again, we're not talking not transcendent, we're talking just plain not good) - nothing unreasonable about saying, hey, guys, this place may be good, but it sure as hell ain't perfect.

[Nathan]

four things:

1. Mimi wrote that Chang was "overrated" based upon one item. so, yeah, she did make an overreaching assumption...blurb or not. .

2. what do people expect Jean Georges or Robuchon to do for $7-$9? seriously! what do you think you're gonna get? anyone who's disappointed off one $7-$9 item..............

3. based on #2 I'm perfectly comfortable in saying that she isn't familiar with Ssam Bar or how it operates.

4. what Spaetzle_Maker said (except for the artichokes part)....especially the third part.

[spaetzle_maker]

<edited to indicate that I'm responding to Meghan's post>

In general - I understand your point. But, specific to Mimi's post on eater, she questions why Ssam Bar is open at all during the day after eating one burrito. But if *all* you want to say is that you don't like the burrito, yes, you only need to eat it once...

For instance, I ate the burrito once and it wasn't the best I've ever had.

But I think the bibb lettuce rice bowls are nicer - more in line with the way I like to eat.

And I agree somewhat with your post (Meghan's) about quality. The quality in the daytime is lower, but I do believe that is factored into the price. The daytime food is not prepared to order. Meaning it's delivered to the customer at a lower cost and it may not satisfy to the same degree as the dinner time menu

Edited May 22, 2007 by spaetzle_maker (log)

[spaetzle_maker]

So Nathan, the artichokes weren't sharp and pointy for you? Am I giving them another try? Anyone else find them kind of pointy?

[Megan Blocker]

So Nathan, the artichokes weren't sharp and pointy for you?  Am I giving them another try?  Anyone else find them kind of pointy?

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Maybe they just cleaned them poorly the one time?

[docsconz]

four things:

1.  Mimi wrote that Chang was "overrated" based upon one item.  so, yeah, she did make an overreaching assumption...blurb or not. .

2.  what do people expect Jean Georges or Robuchon to do for $7-$9?  seriously!  what do you think you're gonna get?  anyone who's disappointed off one $7-$9 item..............

3.  based on #2 I'm perfectly comfortable in saying that she isn't familiar with Ssam Bar or how it operates.

4.  what Spaetzle_Maker said (except for the artichokes part)....especially the third part.

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Maybe not $7 or 9, but J-G does some pretty cool things at lunch for $12. I'm not saying that MSB needs to match or should match what J-G is doing at lunch, but I am simply responding to your statement.

[Jesikka]

So Nathan, the artichokes weren't sharp and pointy for you?  Am I giving them another try?  Anyone else find them kind of pointy?

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Maybe they just cleaned them poorly the one time?

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I had the artichokes last night and found them to be superb. We did not have any issues with pointy-ness. They are definitely a delicious sub for the brussel sprouts.

More disappointing was the new rice cakes dish with ramps and clams, which didn't come together all that well for me. I liked some of the elements, but I didn't feel like it was easy to put them together between the broth, the large size of the rice cakes, the shell on the clam, etc. The rice cakes in chili sauce that I had at Noodle Bar a week ago were far superior (they were awesome, in fact).

I'm not sure whether the restaurant is more crowded than it was before JB because I was there at 8:30 last night and I usually go closer to 10, but it was definitely quite crowded. There were two huge parties (one doing a bo ssam) and the turnover was much slower than I had experienced in the past. We ended up waiting about an hour and 15 minutes for our table. It's too bad that they won't call you when your table is ready.

[spaetzle_maker]

Thanks Jesikka, Megan and Nathan - I'm looking forward to giving the artichokes another shot.

Edited May 22, 2007 by spaetzle_maker (log)

[oakapple]

1.  Mimi wrote that Chang was "overrated" based upon one item.  so, yeah, she did make an overreaching assumption...blurb or not. .

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Actually, what Mimi did was what most people do. She went to a restaurant that has a lot of positive buzz, and ordered like a normal person. She wasn't impressed, and probably won't go back.

Obviously we have higher expectations for Mimi Sheraton, but she's no longer the most powerful critic in New York. She's just a private citizen. Just like the rest of us, she is not obligated to pay multiple visits and eat her way through the whole menu before passing judgment. And just like the rest of us, she is not obligated to turn every restaurant visit into a research project. She's spending her own money. Whether it's $7 or $70, if she doesn't like it, she won't be back—and she'll probably tell her friends. Which is exactly what she did.

Defenders of Momofuku Ssam Bar have something in common with the defenders of other unusual restaurants, like WD-50 and Blue Hill. When someone says they don't like it, the defenders instantly assume that the detractors "don't get it." Just look at the responses on those respective threads whenever someone posts a negative review.

[Beebs]

I'm headed out to NYC next week for vacation and this restaurant is on my list of places to go. What would be the best day(s) & time to go, so to avoid major lineups? And they don't take reservations, right? I've got a flexible schedule and am willing to plan an evening around dinner there. I'd prefer to go for dinner rather than lunch though. Thanks, folks!

[Nathan]

four things:

1.  Mimi wrote that Chang was "overrated" based upon one item.  so, yeah, she did make an overreaching assumption...blurb or not. .

2.  what do people expect Jean Georges or Robuchon to do for $7-$9?  seriously!  what do you think you're gonna get?  anyone who's disappointed off one $7-$9 item..............

3.  based on #2 I'm perfectly comfortable in saying that she isn't familiar with Ssam Bar or how it operates.

4.  what Spaetzle_Maker said (except for the artichokes part)....especially the third part.

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Maybe not $7 or 9, but J-G does some pretty cool things at lunch for $12. I'm not saying that MSB needs to match or should match what J-G is doing at lunch, but I am simply responding to your statement.

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not really...it's two courses for $28. you can't just order one course. plus the accompanying beverages are more expensive. and you can't get your food in 30 seconds (literally) or to go. but the point is, Chang is not going the JG route. he's going the fast food route. why can't he make his place a Korean Chipotle at lunch? what's wrong with that? what does that have to do with dinner?

[Nathan]

1.  Mimi wrote that Chang was "overrated" based upon one item.  so, yeah, she did make an overreaching assumption...blurb or not. .

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Actually, what Mimi did was what most people do. She went to a restaurant that has a lot of positive buzz, and ordered like a normal person. She wasn't impressed, and probably won't go back.

Obviously we have higher expectations for Mimi Sheraton, but she's no longer the most powerful critic in New York. She's just a private citizen. Just like the rest of us, she is not obligated to pay multiple visits and eat her way through the whole menu before passing judgment. And just like the rest of us, she is not obligated to turn every restaurant visit into a research project. She's spending her own money. Whether it's $7 or $70, if she doesn't like it, she won't be back—and she'll probably tell her friends. Which is exactly what she did.

Defenders of Momofuku Ssam Bar have something in common with the defenders of other unusual restaurants, like WD-50 and Blue Hill. When someone says they don't like it, the defenders instantly assume that the detractors "don't get it." Just look at the responses on those respective threads whenever someone posts a negative review.

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I harshly criticized the lunch ssam up the thread (I think the hoisin is too sweet).

the problem is that Mimi didn't go to the restaurant this thread is about. she went to a Korean Chipotle. it's two different restaurants under the same roof. unless one is a culinary Platonist...I don't see what the problem is with that. Mimi went to the wrong restaurant, it's as simple as that. it's just like confusing Masa and Bar Masa. Chang doesn't have the wherewithal for two separate dining rooms in that space. so?

having been to dinner there a number of times, I can tell you that "normal people" aren't ordering burritos at dinner. (except for buns and lettuce bowls, they're the only option at lunch.)

I realize this is blasphemy...but it's really as simple as this: Mimi Sheraton didn't do her homework.

edit: the "but she's now a private citizen and doesn't have to do her homework" line doesn't fly for the simple reason that if she was just a private citizen, we wouldn't be bothering to have this discussion. if she wasn't Mimi Sheraton no one would give a ______'s ___________ what she had to say. so whether fair or not, she's not merely a private citizen. not so long as her criticisms have her name signed to them.

Edited May 22, 2007 by Nathan (log)

[ulterior epicure]

why can't he make his place a Korean Chipotle at lunch?  what's wrong with that?  what does that have to do with dinner?

Nothing, but for the fact (the jury's still out on this one, I suppose) that it's apparently a sub-standard lunch, which I think is what Megan was getting at upthread.

[Nathan]

why can't he make his place a Korean Chipotle at lunch?  what's wrong with that?  what does that have to do with dinner?

Nothing, but for the fact (the jury's still out on this one, I suppose) that it's apparently a sub-standard lunch, which I think is what Megan was getting at upthread.

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frankly, it'd be a substandard lunch for $25, but it's quite good for $7 (literally!).

[spaetzle_maker]

I'm headed out to NYC next week for vacation and this restaurant is on my list of places to go.  What would be the best day(s) & time to go, so to avoid major lineups?  And they don't take reservations, right?  I've got a flexible schedule and am willing to plan an evening around dinner there.  I'd prefer to go for dinner rather than lunch though.  Thanks, folks!

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Beebs - The best time to go to avoid a lineup is probably when it first opens (for the dinner menu) at 5pm, which it does on a daily basis. Have fun!

[Nathan]

I'm headed out to NYC next week for vacation and this restaurant is on my list of places to go.  What would be the best day(s) & time to go, so to avoid major lineups?  And they don't take reservations, right?  I've got a flexible schedule and am willing to plan an evening around dinner there.  I'd prefer to go for dinner rather than lunch though.  Thanks, folks!

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Beebs - The best time to go to avoid a lineup is probably when it first opens (for the dinner menu) at 5pm, which it does on a daily basis. Have fun!

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or after 10. frankly, though, as part of a group of 2 or less, I've never had to wait longer than 20-25 minutes.