The French and Ice

[Ptipois]

Definitely a European thing -- not just French. Remember, the British also drink warm (room temperature) beer.

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A nearly universal misconception. They [we] drink draught ale cellar temperature, which is in the low middle fifties fahrenheit.

Mass-produced [as opposed to artisanal] American beer, on the other hand, should be drunk as cold as possible, short of freezing it into a popsicle, so as not to be able to taste it.

EDIT: My apologies to those who have already made this correction; I hadn't finished reading the thread.

I've gradually come to the conclusion that we Americans are less prepared than the rest of the world to accept our environment as it comes. Our buildings are too cold in summer, too hot in winter; that's partly why, with five percent of the earth's population, we exhaust close to a quarter of its resources.

Every slight environmental discomfort is over-corrected, whether it be the temperature of our bodies (both internal and external), the mode and speed of our travel, the effort of adjusting our TVs, or the inconvenience of preparing our own food, let alone walking to the market to buy it.

In the unequal battle with boredom, sensations are boosted to their maximum: drinks must be bitingly cold, chilis searingly hot, music deafeningly loud. I came to Europe for the gentle life--with a bit of searching, it's still available.

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Agreed on every point!

I never had the notion that the French were thrifty with ice. It's just that we don't consume tons of it at any opportunity, that's all. Like many people the world over, including some tropical countries.

I never had a problem getting ice, even a bowl of ice cubes, at a café or restaurant. Skeptics, take a look at the contents of the bucket holding your bottle of white wine at bistrots.

The recent use of ice machines in many cafés and bistrots has made the serving of ice much easier. Still, it's true that they won't bring you truckloads of it. A bowl is more likely. A miniature bucket, in chic brasseries, is commonly seen.

A tip: if you want a bowl of ice, just don't ask for "un peu de glace" or "de la glace s'il vous plaît". That's when you'll get one to three cubes in a glass, because that's the normal dose for us. Ask for "un bol de glace", like "pourriez-vous nous apporter un bol de glace s'il vous plaît ?". That should do the job.

It's true that the French, and many Europeans, are often defiant of too much ice. Ruins the stomach, they say. I tend to agree, though I like ice in hot weather and don't deprive myself of it.

To comment on SuzySushi's post: yes, I can confirm that Ayurvedic rule. I know it, but I don't follow it closely because that's life, being overcareful means being dead after all, and if you begin thinking of Ayurveda constantly you'll end up not being able to ingest anything. So I do like a bit of ice.

Another reason: dilution. The French are very suspicious of dilution, and believe that bringing a glass of any drink with ice to the brim is akin to fraud. More ice, less goody. The problem disappears when you're brought a small bottle with a glass and ice on the side. In the US I have sometimes been served Coke in a cardboard cup filled to the brim with crushed ice, with the Coke poured on. That amounted to 300 grams ice and 12 cl Coke. Better for you as far as sugar is concerned, but by French standards (and any standards while we're at it), this is a gyp.

My general impression is that the French are definitely more ice-friendly than what is described here. Oftentimes I have had to send back my carafe d'eau because it was full of ice cubes, as a concession to the demands of American tourists. Please put this back in the fridge and bring me a real carafe d'eau, i.e. without ice. And that can happen in January and February. In July or August, I don't mind so much.

Now for the sad part. To the ones who never seem to get more than one cube when they ask for ice: sorry, it's not your fault, but you may well have fallen on some rare waiters with a little vicious streak, who will enjoy torturing you because you're American and asking for ice. I don't have any proof that this is true, having been sometimes presented with that solitary ice cube myself, but in some cases that's possible. Please refer to the bowl method, or even the bucket if you can manage it. Customer is king. But waiters can be tough, too. Good luck.

Now on the topic of wine dilution. In France, it is now considered acceptable to put ice cubes in your rosé wine, even in white or red wine, in times of heatwave or in the South in Summertime.

It is a very French thing (a favorite trick of former Premier ministre Edouard Balladur) to drop an ice cube in your flûte of champagne, even though not many French know the trick. It perks up the wine and stimulates the bubbles.

[John Whiting]

Now on the topic of wine dilution. In France, it is now considered acceptable to put ice cubes in your rosé wine, even in white or red wine, in times of heatwave or in the South in Summertime.

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Since wine is a common everyday food in France, people feel free to do with it whatever they like. If it's a hot day, they may cut their wine with water so as to quench their thirst without consuming so much alcohol. Peasants traditionally finish off their soup by pouring in a generous splash of red wine and drinking "Chabrot" out of the bowl. On a cold winter's day, I'd be happy with a mug of half strong red wine such as an old-style Madiran and half rich bouillon.

[CaliPoutine]

Its not only Europe, Its Canada too.

I grew up in Florida and I'm a naturally warm-bloodied person so I require a lot of ice. Growing up we had an automatic icemaker on our side by side fridge. My entire family loves ice.

On my first trip to the UK and Ireland in 1994, I remember being shocked that I couldnt get ice anywhere. I was also shocked at having to pay for a packet of ketchup in McDonalds( but thats a whole nother story).

I was staying at various hostels and I was actually making my own ice with water filled cups.

When I first moved to Ontario almost 4yrs ago, I was stunned at the lack of ice. Most places give you 1 or 2 cubes. I almost always ask for an extra glass of ice when I order a soda. ( Oh and hardly anyone gives free refills either, including fast food restaurants).

[C. sapidus]

In the unequal battle with boredom, sensations are boosted to their maximum: drinks must be bitingly cold, chilis searingly hot, music deafeningly loud. I came to Europe for the gentle life--with a bit of searching, it's still available. 

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Elegantly expressed. I would concur if you take out the part about the chilies.

In the battle of ice vs. no ice, one should remember climate. In much of the U.S., summers are considerably hotter and muggier than in Europe and Canada. Tragically, people die in droves when Europe has a typical stretch of southeastern U.S. summer weather.

Weather hot, ice good.

[Busboy]

Definitely a European thing -- not just French. Remember, the British also drink warm (room temperature) beer.

←

A nearly universal misconception. They [we] drink draught ale cellar temperature, which is in the low middle fifties fahrenheit.

Mass-produced [as opposed to artisanal] American beer, on the other hand, should be drunk as cold as possible, short of freezing it into a popsicle, so as not to be able to taste it.

EDIT: My apologies to those who have already made this correction; I hadn't finished reading the thread.

I've gradually come to the conclusion that we Americans are less prepared than the rest of the world to accept our environment as it comes. Our buildings are too cold in summer, too hot in winter; that's partly why, with five percent of the earth's population, we exhaust close to a quarter of its resources.

Every slight environmental discomfort is over-corrected, whether it be the temperature of our bodies (both internal and external), the mode and speed of our travel, the effort of adjusting our TVs, or the inconvenience of preparing our own food, let alone walking to the market to buy it.

In the unequal battle with boredom, sensations are boosted to their maximum: drinks must be bitingly cold, chilis searingly hot, music deafeningly loud. I came to Europe for the gentle life--with a bit of searching, it's still available.

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Words easily spoken by one who lives in a country where the hottest July day ever recorded was a mere 36.5 degrees (97.7).

Where I hail from -- and where I ended up going on vacation -- we consider that sweater weather.

A related question for the French and francophiles on board: We were in Nimes on what I believe was the hottest day of our vacation, well into the 40s, and after a morning scrambling around the Pont du Gard we changes into decent clothes as best we could in the car and headed into town for lunch at Michelin Bib Gourmand Aux Plaisirs des Halles. I was in shorts, but nice shorts, and a proper linen shirt and leather sandals,wife and daughter similarly, if not slightly better clad. Upon arrival, we were hustled through the air-conditioned dining room rapidly enough (given that French A/C tends to be subtle) that we didn't notice that it was air conditioned, and seated on the jungle-like terrace.

At first we thought that we'd been shunted to a special hell for ill-dressed tourists, but then another table was seated next to us, one in which both members of the couple were on a cheek-kissing basis with the chef and la patronne, even though they were dressed more casually than we. So we thought maybe we were just being sent to the "shorts" section.

Finally, it occurred to us that maybe, even on the hottest days,French rstauranteurs assume that you prefer the terrace, unless you ask otherwise.

Any thoughts?

[John Talbott]

Finally, it occurred to us that maybe, even on the hottest days,French rstauranteurs assume that you prefer the terrace, unless you ask otherwise. 

Any thoughts?

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There is an essay that almost answers your query, that was published a week ago in Bonjour Paris (Premium Subscription required but available from me to any member by asking nicely in a PM) called "Q. Airconditioning? A. Sort of" (although the title was edited and resides on the cutting room floor).

[bleudauvergne]

Hey! Busboy! I told you that I knew a place where you could get Block Ice just down the road for your ice chest - but did you want it? No! In fact when I happened across the the block ice for sale at a Casino between Toulon & Hyeres I was tempted to buy a block just because it was there - it just seemed like a miracle. Thank goodness my husband was there to restrain me. Looking back on our lunch I suppose we were being terribly French by offering single ice cubes to you from the bowl. Sorry about that. Freezers in homes equipped with ice makers are a rarity here. Wouldn't it have been funny if we brought out a block of ice and an ice pick and broke off chunks! Now that is something I want to try now.

Restaurant seating logic is quite a complicated topic, on the other hand. Very difficult to say how one or another place is going to handle people. I suppose it has a lot to do with where the restaurant is, what is their regular clientele, what's considered the prestigious seating in the establishment by the owners, etc.

[ludja]

I think having lots of ice in a drink is something that has become much more popular in the US, in say, the last 30-40 years. So I do think it has been a type of conditioning--which I am a part of. Give me an icy can of diet coke. I like the bite of cold and the extra carbonation. I think people who are not used to this find the 'excessive' cold and carbonation unpleasant. (My grandmother in Austria probably thinks it is unhealthy as well.)

The little to no ice in drinks is just as common in Austria and Italy per my experience.

I wonder if the proliferation of McDonald's and other US fast food joints in Europe is 'teaching' the next generation to enjoy and want lots of ice in their soda? Do fast food outlets there put lots of ice in their soda as standard practice?

[John Whiting]

To be perfectly honest, I must admit that when I still lived in the U.S. forty-plus years ago, I loved ice in almost any non-alcoholic drink and often sucked on an ice cube, even in ambient heat that was only moderate. These days, I almost never make use of the ice cubes in our fridge-freezer that are there for the taking. Is it an age thing? Or have I simply rejected Cubism?

[Busboy]

Hey!  Busboy!  I told you that I knew a place where you could get Block Ice just down the road for your ice chest - but did you want it?  No!  In fact when I happened across the the block ice for sale at a Casino between Toulon & Hyeres I was tempted to buy a block just because it was there - it just seemed like a miracle.  Thank goodness my husband was there to restrain me.  Looking back on our lunch I suppose we were being terribly French by offering single ice cubes to you from the bowl.  Sorry about that.  Freezers in homes equipped with ice makers are a rarity here.  Wouldn't it have been funny if we brought out a block of ice and an ice pick and broke off chunks!  Now that is something I want to try now. 

Restaurant seating logic is quite a complicated topic, on the other hand.  Very difficult to say how one or another place is going to handle people.  I suppose it has a lot to do with where the restaurant is, what is their regular clientele, what's considered the prestigious seating in the establishment by the owners, etc.

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Ahh, but by the time we had that wonderful lunch, the cooler was a lost cause and, more important the mistral had blown away the canicule, life was good and we had no need to haul off hunks off ice.

Besides, even if we gripe every now and again - heat will do that to us -- we do go to France to be in France and if ice comes in bowls a cube at a time; coffee comes in thimbles; and buildings come without elevators, we are happy to partake in the exotic customs of our Gallic friends.

On the restaurant seating, one thing that occurred to us was that in Nimes we were dining in a "real" city, full of attorneys and accountants and whomever out on business lunch. When we had eaten at a similar restaurant in St. Remy (Alain Assaud), which is more of a tourist town, the dress was very casual, even we were there for dinner, rather than lunch.

[Ptipois]

Finally, it occurred to us that maybe, even on the hottest days,French rstauranteurs assume that you prefer the terrace, unless you ask otherwise. 

Any thoughts?

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I think you guessed right.

[russ parsons]

i was eating dinner with an italian friend in trieste. it was boiling, probably 95 degrees with no ac. i asked for ice water. he was appalled; his mother had told him that ice water was so cold it ... i don't remember what, but it was something bad physiologically. i drank my ice water happily and he looked on jealously. finally, he ordered one for himself, took two sips and went ghostly pale and started grabbing his chest. i thought he was having a heart attack, but after about 5 minutes, he returned to normal. power of suggestion? quite probably, but the reaction was undoubtedly real.

[kiliki]

Do fast food outlets there put lots of ice in their soda as standard practice?

I don't normally like a lot of ice in my beverages-I completely understand why some people find it odd that Americans do generally consume so much ice. BUT, when it's hot, I want a very cold, icy drink. I remember being so hot in Italy one June, looking everywhere for a truly cold drink (I couldn't find any granitas, even), and finally giving in and going into a McDonalds, sure that I'd get an icy coke. I got a room temperature coke with 2 ice cubes. Blech. I'm going to write down the phrase mentioned earlier so I know how to get ice when I truly crave it.

[Franci]

i was eating dinner with an italian friend in trieste. it was boiling, probably 95 degrees with no ac. i asked for ice water. he was appalled; his mother had told him that ice water was so cold it ... i don't remember what, but it was something bad physiologically. i drank my ice water happily and he looked on jealously. finally, he ordered one for himself, took two sips and went ghostly pale and started grabbing his chest. i thought he was having a heart attack, but after about 5 minutes, he returned to normal. power of suggestion? quite probably, but the reaction was undoubtedly real.

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I don't think is power of suggestion. I cannot tollerate very cold drinks, I don't normally refrigerate my water in the summer unless is really 40 C.

And salads? I have always wondered how people can eat cold salads, beside the stomach ache I get, I cannot even taste it.

And the list would be long...no collants and wet hair in winter for ladies: we think Americans are maybe immune to cervical headaches

Edited August 22, 2006 by Franci (log)

[Dave Hatfield]

I think having lots of ice in a drink is something that has become much more popular in the US, in say, the last 30-40 years

Don't think so.

I grew up in Santa Rosa, California eating snow cones sold from

Mr. Benicasa's van. That was in the 40's & early 50's

For those too young to remember them a snow cone is simply crushed ice with some fruit syrup poured over it.

I still haven't totally cured my ice addiction after living in Europe on & off for over 30 years.

[Margaret Pilgrim]

Finally, it occurred to us that maybe, even on the hottest days,French rstauranteurs assume that you prefer the terrace, unless you ask otherwise. 

Any thoughts?

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I think you're right. Also, it is easier for service if everyone is seated in the same area, indoors or terrace.

There is an essay that almost answers your query, that was published a week ago in Bonjour Paris (Premium Subscription required but available from me to any member by asking nicely in a PM) called "Q. Airconditioning?  A. Sort of" (although the title was edited and resides on the cutting room floor).

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What boggles me is how many places are airconditioned yet leave the doors open to the street and or a rear patio.

[menton1]

Wow, quite a provocative topic...

I think the ice question is similar to the air conditioning one. Definitely a cultural difference. I'm sure that 99% of French homes and apartments have no air conditioning. The French have a notion (perhaps subconsciously for some) that drafts cause illness.

I recall a September day in Paris when it was quite warm, in the high 30s. We were walking around the 4th, perspiring profusely, and walked into a cute little shop, long and narrow, with a large variety of "torchons" . (Small towels) and some other unusual items. The patron was sitting in the very rear of the store (no windows, all glass storefront) cool as a cucumber, not a drop of perspiration. I joked to him how he didn't mind the heat, and he said that he is used to it. They don't even use "ventilateurs" (fans) !! Part of the avoid-drafts syndrome, too.

That's why we always go to France in Spring or Fall, never July or August...

I wonder if anything has been done to prepare for heat waves at the seniors' residences, where they had all those tragedies in the Canicule of '03?

[John Talbott]

I wonder if anything has been done to prepare for heat waves at the seniors' residences, where they had all those tragedies in the Canicule of '03?

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I'll try to answer keeping on topic by saying that at the start of the heat wave the 8 PM TV news showed nursing staff spraying elderly folk with mist and encouraging inhabitants to drink water, authorities encouraged the elderly to go to the airconditioned supermarkets and (most on topic) every apartment building got encouragement from M. Delanoye et al to have a "block party" in the courtyard and bring wine, food and a chair so you could meet the neighbors and presumably recognize elderly folk who might be in need, if and when the canicule reappeared. My sense is that this summer's response and death rate are drastically different from those in 2003.

[Dave Hatfield]

I wonder if anything has been done to prepare for heat waves at the seniors' residences, where they had all those tragedies in the Canicule of '03?

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I'll try to answer keeping on topic by saying that at the start of the heat wave the 8 PM TV news showed nursing staff spraying elderly folk with mist and encouraging inhabitants to drink water, authorities encouraged the elderly to go to the airconditioned supermarkets and (most on topic) every apartment building got encouragement from M. Delanoye et al to have a "block party" in the courtyard and bring wine, food and a chair so you could meet the neighbors and presumably recognize elderly folk who might be in need, if and when the canicule reappeared. My sense is that this summer's response and death rate are drastically different from those in 2003.

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John; You're right. There's been a whole PR campaign going for to make people aware of the dangers.

There has been a series of anticles in our local paper, TV documentaries and announcements in our newsletter from the commune.

The government's determined that there will be no repetition.

[PS]

To stick my oar in:

I'd characterise the love of ice as an American thing, not the lack of this trait as a French/European/wherever thing. Ice is fine as a couple of cubes in your glass of water, or as required in a cocktail, but I've never been a fan of the huge amount of ice you get in fast food-style outlets - it becomes too cold to be a pleasant drink (assuming it ever was in the first place) and quickly becomes watery pish. It's unnecessary and wasteful.

Moving on to air-conditioning: I think the secret is that people become acclimatised to the ambient temperature of a place (I have friends in Hong Kong who barely sweat while the stuff's running off me) and/or they adapt their lifestyle to accommodate it - don't venture out in the midday heat, lots of terraces, shutters on windows, take it real easy. Why buy a/c units when you can instead just chill out and enjoy the summer?

[CaliPoutine]

It's unnecessary and wasteful.

Washing your driveway with a hose of running water in the summer is wasteful. I wouldnt call using more than 2 cubes of ice, wasteful. I'm American and I love ice.( I also don't like hot drinks) I'm proud of that. In the grand scheme of things, its trivial.

I also don't think its an "American" thing as much as its an indivdual preference. I have a lot of friends who take their soda's with no ice.

[ludja]

To stick my oar in:

I'd characterise the love of ice as an American thing, not the lack of this trait as a French/European/wherever thing.

...

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I think that is a pretty fair assessment. Can anyone come up with any other countries that use as much ice in drinks as the US does or like their sodas and glasses of water as cold?

Well, I'm not proud or ashamed of liking cold drinks, so pass me an icy diet coke, please... In Graz (Austria) I found one vendor in town that carried pretty cold cans of 'coco cola light". I also bought cans to have in the fridge at home and gave my grandparent's ice cube tray some use... In Florence during very hot weather I had many nice icy lemon slushes but when I needed a cold soda, I went to McDonald's and asked for extra ice.

In terms of waste, I wonder what the energy expenditure is each day to make millions of drinks (sodas, iced teas, glasses of water) filled with ice. (It would be dwarfed by AC expenditures, but still...)

Edited August 23, 2006 by ludja (log)

[Catriona]

I'd characterise the love of ice as an American thing, not the lack of this trait as a French/European/wherever thing. :

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Amen to that!

[Pontormo]

I remember being so hot in Italy one June, looking everywhere for a truly cold drink (I couldn't find any granitas, even), and finally giving in and going into a McDonalds, sure that I'd get an icy coke.

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I grew up in Santa Rosa, California eating snow cones sold from

Mr. Benicasa's van. That was in the 40's & early 50's

For those too young to remember them a snow cone is simply crushed ice with some fruit syrup poured over it.

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I'm surprised no one else has picked up on these references to Sicilian granitas and ice cones in the United States. These seem the closest thing to drinks with ice cubes in Italy, except for the distinction that you have to make between wanting ice cubes in a glass of water and a sweet dessert-like drink or street fare. For the record, most Italian bars keep bottles of water refrigerated and they're poured not just the foreigners. However, in the summer, barristas will often size up the accent and appearance of the person asking for the 'bicchiere d'acqua" and reach for the ice cubes with their tongs if they think you're American...same way a few still reach for the cinnamon when you ask for cappuccino.

As for wanting an icy Coke, well, here I have to say that the other American peculiarity is a taste for something made from diluted icky-sweet syrup to sip while eating Salade Nicoise or Pizza Margherita. Italians have their iced teas flavored with a cloyingly sweet peach juice, but these cold drinks are served on their own.

The difference between the glass of cold water and the one with ice cubes is technological. When you look at the way this thread is unfolding, don't you detect a bit of the Kitchen Debate in the air? Or Ronald Reagan during his days as spokesman for General Electric?

Does the habit of putting ice cubes in our drinks stem from a Post-WWII campaign to promote the glory of the nation as reflected in the way technological progress serves the American Home? In a belief in the superiority and democratic accessibility of our refrigerators and the nifty, modern ice cube tray? (N.B. Please trust the ironic tone. This is a call for more cultural history, not a challenge.)

Further references:

GOSNELL, Mariana.

PARKER, Ian.

[Pontormo]

Forgot to say that the role of technology occurred to me first when I was thinking about granitas and the use of shaved ice on the street as opposed to ice frozen in trays.