Why did this happen?

[LittleIsland]

Any idea why this happened to my cake?

It's my test cake for my dad's wedding carrot cake for this Sunday so now I'm panicking a bit. Squirrelly Cakes has been helping me along at Baking911 but I thought I'd also ask here.

I baked this in a 9x3" Magic Line pan (expecting it to turn out very level) in convection mode on the second rack from bottom (out of 5 rack positions). With this recipe I usually bake 2 layers with no problems, only slight doming. For the wedding cake however, I thought I'd go with 3" high pans and torte. The fan did appear to be blowing the batter a little on the side directly facing it. So I turned the cake after 30 minutes. The whole thing took about 70 minutes - and I think it's a little overbaked (crusty top) although at 62 minutes it was slightly liquidy.

The left side is about 2" high, about 1/3" lower than the right. There is also a small crater in the middle. Heeelppppp.

Looking at this cake I would have thought I'd get a higher cake than what I'd achieve from 2 layer pans, but it looks as though after levelling it, it will actually end up slightly lower.

Possibly need to try again on traditional oven mode with top and bottom heat only and no convection? Or change rack position? Or go back to baking 2 layers in 2" pans instead of using a 3" pan and torting? (then I would be in trouble because I only have the 9"x2" pans, the 6" and 12" are 3" high) Or any other suggestions very welcome and necessary! I really need to start baking the actual/final cakes tomorrow or Wednesday at latest or I'll run out of time.

Edited August 14, 2006 by LittleIsland (log)

[miladyinsanity]

May I ask what other modes does your oven have?

Mine has a pastry mode, and my cakes have been turning out pretty level since I figured out how to turn it on.

[Sarah Phillips]

Hi,

Squirrelly Cakes has given you some really good advice, and has spent a lot of time with you on baking911.com. Since you posted your question here, too, I thought I'd add.

There are several possible solutions to your problem:

1. The fact that your cake has a slight dip in the middle and is lopsided says to me that a 3-inch cake pan is too deep for this type of cake batter, because this type of batter is very (maybe too) dense and "wet" for a deep pan.

To bake this type of cake recipe in a deep pan, you may need to adjust the batter - use 1/4 to 1/3 cup or even 1/2 cup less grated carrots, and it will help with the dip in the center and the lopsided look. I think this will be true whether or not it's baked in a convection or a conventional oven.

2. Or, bake the batter as is in 2-inch high cake pans in the convection or conventional oven.

3. And, mildinsanity has good advice. The cake is also very dark on the outside. Did you reduce the convection oven's temperature by 25 to 50 degrees F? Perhaps the cake can be baked in a 3-inch deep pan in a convection oven as is, and adjustments need to be made with the oven and/or shelf position itself, as you asked, and which I can't answer. I know you have been getting used to your new convection oven and it may be as simple as knowing how to use it!

All I can do it look at the cake itself and its symptoms. The dip in the center of the cake is a tell-tale sign of batter with too much liquid - probably from using too deep a pan with too many carrots. The dark outside and your telling me that it didn't bake well in the center, also tells me that the pan is too deep and/or there is a problem with the heat source. I know recipe bakes fine in a 2-inch deep pan when baked in a conventional oven, and will probably bake as well in a convection oven in the same size pan.

Edited August 14, 2006 by Sarah Phillips (log)

[Squirrelly Cakes]

Hi there kiddo! I answered this on Baking911.com.

First of all, I don't know what recipe you ended up using, as your recipe, if memory serves me, has twice the amount of carrots mine does and I bake it in a 3 inch deep pan all of the time. I know you added two tablepoons of bran instead of the two tsp. I use but that shouldn't have made a major difference in how the cake baked. I just multiply my recipe according to the Wilton guides for batter amounts and use that amount of batter suggested. We discussed how different batter bake and rise differently. I have made this recipe in pans up to 16 inches by 3 inches with no problems.

But I do not bake on covection. I don't like the results in my oven when used on the convection cycle when baking cakes. You stated that the fan was blowing the batter on one side and that you moved the cake around as a result. To me, that is the problem. The damage was already done and just looking at the picture, you can see that is what happened. I think you will need to experiment with the convection cycle but you don't really have time to do that for this cake. So I suggested you use the oven on regular mode at 325F for your 3 inch deep pan. I can only tell you that my recipe works fine, your recipe may have too much carrots in it to work as well in the 3 inch deep pans, I don't know.

I mainly use 3 inch deep pans, without a heating core or any upside-down flower nails or Bake Even Strips and I never have a problem.

The centre point of all ovens vary. For me, I use the rack that has about an equal amount from the bottom of the middle of the rack down to the heating element and from that same point of the rack to the upper heating element. I bake cakes in the centre of my oven with equal spaces all around the pan to the oven walls.

I don't think the pan is the issue at all, I think it is how the fan blew the batter. It is likely something you will have to experiment with if using convection for baking.

Hugs Squirrelly Cakes

[Sarah Phillips]

Yes, and Squirrelly Cakes, if her recipe has too many carrots in the batter, I have seen this happen time and time, again, especially when the batter gets too deep. A common syptom is that the recipe will dip in the middle. It happens with carrot and zucchini bread, even if baked in a loaf pan. The tendency is to want to add in as much as possible, but there's a limit as to how much a cake structure can handle without it dipping or losing its structure.

[LittleIsland]

Thanks a bazillion for all the sound advice, Squirrelly and Sarah. Deeply appreciated.

I ended up using my usual Maida Heatter recipe as I only baked the test cake yesterday and wouldn't have a chance to taste it before tonight so didn't want to take a chance on a new recipe I'd never tried before. It's 4 cups carrots (1 lb), 1 1/2 cups nuts. When baking layers I usually just chuck in an estimated 500g carrots (cos I like loads of carrots in the cake) which I measured out this morning to be 4 1/3 cups. Way too much I guess for a 3" pan as you've said.

So these are my adjustments with the 9" cake in the oven now:

- Reduced carrots to 3 cups

- Reduced nuts to generous 1 cup

- I had addded the 2tsp bran anyway (yes this time 2 TSP)

- Baking in normal top and bottom heat mode, no convection - 2nd rack from bottom because this puts the pan smack in the middle of the oven

- Baking at 325F

- Added a flower nail in the centre for insurance

I figure since I don't have the time this week I will put in all my insurance, and try to isolate the issues later when I am not under pressure. The only thing I did not do is wrap the pans.

So far at 60 minutes it's looking FAIRLY even - at least none of the ridiculous lopsided-ness from yesterday. Except for a small area on the side facing the back of the oven... like a small bevel (for want of a better description) where the edge of the cake is slightly lower (a touch less than 1/4") than the rest. Hopefully it won't be a huge issue once I come to level the cake.

I have fingers and toes and goodness-knows-what-else crossed! I will be a wreck the entire time the 12" cake is in the oven, I know it!

[pupkinpie2]

Why does it matter if your cake doesnt look pefect when its baked? As long as it tastes good and isnt too dense, so your cake can be built without dificulity and eat well, than you can fix the cosmetic issue. When making a wedding cake, no matter what kind of cake you use you should trim off the brown bottom and cut the top so its flat (no cake bakes competly flat on top) and then cut your cake into perfect layers. You will have some waste and thats ok. Use a long serrated knife or fishing line to cut the layers into perfectly flat slices. Email me if you hae any more questions.

Oh and dont worry so much... its just cake.

[LittleIsland]

Thank you for the offer. I don't expect it to look perfect but it's the irritating perfectionist in me that wants it to look decent when sliced as well. The layers will be level (I hope!) because I'll be using a wire cake leveller but I dislike seeing uneven sides on a cake that's hidden by scads of frosting, not the least issue being that people getting those side slices are getting too much frosting in proportion to cake.

I know it's a niggly petty little thing but hey we all have our pet peeves

Now, tell me if I'm an idiot or am I misreading advice when they say to level and torte a cake when frozen... does it mean to freeze and then allow the cake to defrost before levelling and slicing? I've just tried running my leveller through the frozen cake and of course it's too hurd *duh* What am I missing here? I should allow it to soften, correct??

[LittleIsland]

May I ask what other modes does your oven have?

Mine has a pastry mode, and my cakes have been turning out pretty level since I figured out how to turn it on.

←

There's:

- top and bottom heat (traditional mode)

- full convection

- convection with bottom heat

- and others which are more for cooking/roasting/grilling etc. than baking

I'm guessing a pastry mode is the convection with bottom heat which would ensure the bottom crust is thoroughly cooked. I tried this the other day with lousy results but then again I was using 2 racks with 2 pans per rack - yep ambitious. I think it needs more experimentation once I'm done with the wedding cake.

[cyd]

In this case, I'd skip the round cake pans altogether and bake on sheet pans, then cut the round layers out of them. I'm a terrible leveler, and this works every time for me, albeit with a little waste, but you can make petit fours with it. And, depending on the size of the sheet pan, you can make halves of layers for the middle layer if you need to. Adjust when frosting and you've got it! Just don't use any edge that looks more cooked than the rest. If you've got a flower nail, you can use that in the center to help out, but it's not really necessary.

Good luck!

-Cyd

[shaloop]

Your oven racks or even your oven may not be level. I have this problem and therefore all of my cakes come out somewhat lopsided. It's not much and now that I'm aware I make sure I level all of my cakes. My kids love to eat the scraps so there's no waste but one day I'm gonna level it!

[CanadianBakin']

Your oven racks or even your oven may not be level.  I have this problem and therefore all of my cakes come out somewhat lopsided.  It's not much and now that I'm aware I make sure I level all of my cakes.  My kids love to eat the scraps so there's no waste but one day I'm gonna level it!

←

Shaloop, many ovens have adjustable feet that screw out to level it if uneven. Does yours?

Edited August 15, 2006 by CanadianBakin' (log)

[miladyinsanity]

Now, tell me if I'm an idiot or am I misreading advice when they say to level and torte a cake when frozen... does it mean to freeze and then allow the cake to defrost before levelling and slicing?  I've just tried running my leveller through the frozen cake and of course it's too hurd *duh* What am I missing here?  I should allow it to soften, correct??

←

Do it whilst it's frozen.

You can let it soften a bit to make it easier to level though.

[Sarah Phillips]

Thanks a bazillion for all the sound advice, Squirrelly and Sarah.  Deeply appreciated.

I ended up using my usual Maida Heatter recipe as I only baked the test cake yesterday and wouldn't have a chance to taste it before tonight so didn't want to take a chance on a new recipe I'd never tried before.  It's 4 cups carrots (1 lb), 1 1/2 cups nuts.  When baking layers I usually just chuck in an estimated 500g carrots (cos I like loads of carrots in the cake) which I measured out this morning to be 4 1/3 cups.  Way too much I guess for a 3" pan as you've said.

So these are my adjustments with the 9" cake in the oven now:

- Reduced carrots to 3 cups

- Reduced nuts to generous 1 cup

- I had addded the 2tsp bran anyway (yes this time 2 TSP)

- Baking in normal top and bottom heat mode, no convection - 2nd rack from bottom because this puts the pan smack in the middle of the oven

- Baking at 325F

- Added a flower nail in the centre for insurance

I figure since I don't have the time this week I will put in all my insurance, and try to isolate the issues later when I am not under pressure.  The only thing I did not do is wrap the pans.

So far at 60 minutes it's looking FAIRLY even - at least none of the ridiculous lopsided-ness from yesterday.  Except for a small area on the side facing the back of the oven... like a small bevel (for want of a better description) where the edge of the cake is slightly lower (a touch less than 1/4") than the rest.  Hopefully it won't be a huge issue once I come to level the cake.

I have fingers and toes and goodness-knows-what-else crossed!  I will be a wreck the entire time the 12" cake is in the oven, I know it!

←

Any (good) news, yet!? I can hardly wait to hear!

[LittleIsland]

Your oven racks or even your oven may not be level.  I have this problem and therefore all of my cakes come out somewhat lopsided.  It's not much and now that I'm aware I make sure I level all of my cakes. 

←

This would drive me nuts!! (specifically, walnuts) For a minute there I was almost hyperventilating at the thought. Then sanity prevailed: I don't think that's my problem, because today's cakes turned out FAIRLY ok , the tiny dip on today's 9" cake was on one side, like a small bevelled edge - if the oven were not level, the entire cake would be slightly slopey, not just this tiny dip. My 6" cake did not have a problem with the sloping - just a small centre dip which is probably due to the carrots.

For those interested in my first wedding cake saga - erm, I mean, journey - I can post the long-winded story here too but it's over at baking911 where Squirrelly Cakes and Sarah have been patiently holding my hand. Talk about having it consume my entire fortnight. Even while driving I am thinking about batter, nuts, cake pans, etc.

Cyd - sheet pans - good idea for the future but I don't have any right now, and if I were to buy them I'd rather buy 2" layer pans and bake the layers in those

Depending on my confidence level, I'll post pictures of the end result here though!

Edited August 15, 2006 by LittleIsland (log)

[Squirrelly Cakes]

Hope it all goes well for you!

Most people do allow a frozen cake to defrost a bit before levelling or torting. I just level when they come out of the pan to cool and sometimes again after they have been frozen, but it depends on how level they look. Freezing larger cakes makes them easier to torte or level but I tend to torte them frozen. The problem with torting a cake that has nuts or raisins or chunks of fruit in them, is if you are using a leveller, like the Wilton leveller, sometimes it gets caught in the fruit or nuts and doesn't do as smooth a job. That is partly why I prefer to use a serrated knife to torte or level.

I agree that a cake doesn't have to look perfect and much can be cosmetically resolved. But this is a bit more of a baking issue, at least the first cake was. It sounded like the cake wasn't baked evenly and parts were more baked than other due to the convection fan blowing the batter around.

Today's problem could possibly be resolved by reducing the amount of carrots used as Sarah mentioned due to structural issues. It could be also that you didn't fill the cake pan level, little things like that can make a change. Some batters are thin enough that they level themselves out once poured into a pan, others don't. A minor dip in the centre isn't a big issue and could be the carrot amount or could be that the cake might have stood a couple of extra minutes cooking time.

Cakes often will still taste fine and can be cosmetically corrected, that is true. But I think when we are trying to understand why certain recipes behave the way we do, often the recipe has a fault that creates cracking, over-crowning, major dips in the centre etc. and those issues can be resolved by altering the recipes or using a different one.

I think overall cake decorators, particularly wedding cake decorators are trying to always achieve cakes of a certain height so that all tiers match etc. So when we start having to level some off quite a bit because it has a badly irregular surface height, whereas another tier may be the full of the pan height, that is where it becomes an issue to resolve. You don't want to add 3/4 inch of icing to one tier and 1/4 inch to another. For one thing, the icing can itself become an issue in the cake's stability and look as too much icing can buckle and droop.

So each situation is different.

Hugs Squirrelly Cakes

[LittleIsland]

Hmmm I obviously have a too-powerful convection fan, as evidenced by these two new 9" layers from today.

The cake above has a slight "lip" on the left, and on the right if you look closely, you can see a small dip at the edge of the cake.

Ditto the dip at the right side of the layer above. I think that's where the fan was blowing it. The first layer was on the 2nd rack from bottom, and therefore more susceptible to the fan - although the lip happened on the side facing the fan.

For both layers, I will have to level them off at about 1 1/4 or so inches, due to the dip. grrrr

Above is the 6" cake, which I baked at the same time as the 2 layers. I baked the 2 layers in my new oven using convection mode because I was using 2 racks. I baked the 6" cake in my old counter-top convection. Strangely, yesterday's 6" cake baked in the new oven using traditional top and bottom heat only, turned out nicer and more level than today's. So, it really does vary quite a bit between ovens, modes and pans.

Looking carefully at the 6" cake above, you will see on the right side, a small dip in the side of the cake - what causes that? I didn't get that in yesterday's 6" cake. Anyway I will use this cake and level it off.

Carrots - about 5 1/4 cups for a 2 1/4 recipe batch which was divided among the 3 pans above. Left out nuts from both cakes and will omit as well from the 12" I'll be baking tomorrow. I hope this allows for easier torting. And yes, this time I left the cakes to stand for 20-30 minutes before unmolding.

One thing I need to eventually figure out is whether I can bake the layers in the 9x2" pans in traditional mode in the new oven, instead of convection. I hate that fan!!! I had really good results from the same pans baking RLB's All-Occasion Downy Yellow Butter cake using convection mode but I think that's because the batter wasn't as high.

Well, so far I realise I've only been posting my problem cake pictures and no glorious goodies yet... hopefully soon

Edited August 16, 2006 by LittleIsland (log)

[MichelleGL]

Hey, Little Island. This response is probably too late-- I just joined egullet-- but hopefully this'll help.

First, I'd recommend cooking withOUT the convection fan and being sure to rotate halfway through baking. I practically never bake wedding cakes with the convection fan.

Second, always treat pans with Wilton Cake Release (kind of like butter and flour in one product, but with better results-- much tighter crumb) and bake cakes with Magi-Cake Strips wrapped around the outsides of the cakes. (Magi-Cake Strips are metallic fabric strips that you soak in water and pin to the outsides of the cake pans and they make your cakes SO level.)

Hope this helps!

[LittleIsland]

Thanks MichelleGL. Yes I've given up using the convection feature of my oven until I figure out what I can bake with it that doesn't get blown to one side. I did eventually get even cakes after LOTS of levelling.

Edited to add a warm welcome to eGullet! It's such a great place to hang out.

Edited September 7, 2006 by LittleIsland (log)

[SweetSide]

On the convection part -- it isn't actually getting "blown" to one side. As you noted in a post above, your highest side was facing the fan. That side is getting blasted with the heat, so is cooking faster. I don't have a solution for you other than, when I do cakes I put them on the highest and lowest shelves if possible so they don't get direct fan. Other problems there, I know, but I rotate. I can't shut my fan off, and I don't have access to a conventional oven.

[LittleIsland]

On the convection part -- it isn't actually getting "blown" to one side.  As you noted in a post above, your highest side was facing the fan.  That side is getting blasted with the heat, so is cooking faster. 

←

Interesting observation SweetSide... and does makes sense. I certainly didn't think of that. But it doesn't explain the lip and the bevel - so it's probably a combination of both. I don't know if it's fixable in the oven.

my other problem now is when baking on 2 racks, the top rack invariably develops a really crusty top - which I suppose I could avoid by rotating but I'm worried about causing the cake to fall.