Japanese Knife Glossary

[Shalmanese]

I've been looking a while at some Japanese knives and I haven't been able to find a resource either on the internet or on egullet that goes into exactly what each knife is and does. So I thought this would be a good place to have a central repository of Japanese Knife knowledge and all the different details about them.

So far, this is what I've gathered:

Knife Names - as a very rough approximation, this is the following conversion:

Gyuto - Chefs Knife

Petty - Paring Knife

Santoku - A hybrid between a Chinese Cleaver and a Chefs Knife

Usuba - Small, rectangular knife built for cutting vegtables

Yanagiba - Long thin slicing knife designed for sushi but can be used as a carving knife

Deba - I'm still not really sure about this one, It's meant to be a thicker, more durable cleaving style knife?

I would be interested to know just how each of these knives differ from the western equivilant.

Japanese knives vs Western knives - Japanese knives are generally lighter and thinner than western blades and do not contain a bolster. The blade is made of a harder metal which means a sharper blade but shorter times between sharpenings to maintain it? Japanese knives are only ground on one side as opposed to both sides of Western knives. Japanese knives come in left and right handed versions because of this.

Popular brands of Japanese Knives - Global, Kershaw Shun, Mac, Tojiro, Hattori, Watanabe.

Places to buy Japanese Knives -

Japanese Chefs Knife

Watanabe Blade

Amazon

Wiki article on Japanese Chefs Knives (which is not very good at the moment)

People more knowledgeable in this subject, please feel free to weigh in.

[C. sapidus]

Shalmanese: Many folks here are way more knowledgeable than I am, but not all Japanese knives are single-beveled. Many Western-style Japanese knives (Tojiro, Hattori, Ryusen, Mac, Ittosai Kotetsu) are double-beveled.

Korin has a good summary of the different types of Japanese and Western-style Japanese knives. Click on Japanese style knives and Western style knives

[mrsadm]

Glossary of Japanese Cutlery terms:

http://www.foodieforums.com/japaneseglossary.htm

edited to add, additional great information:

Article about traditional Japanese knives:

http://www.foodieforums.com/traditional.htm

Article about western style Japanese knives:

http://www.foodieforums.com/revolution.htm

Edited August 1, 2006 by mrsadm (log)

[helenjp]

An usuba or nakiri is for slicing/chopping up vegetables; a deba is for chopping up meat. For slicing meat or fish thinly, a gyuutou is best. A deba will cut through small bones, though it may not be the same afterward .

...of course, that's before we get into the modern knives, the hybrids, the gimmicks, the...let me see now...

[Hiroyuki]

万能包丁 = bannou bouchou (not houchou) = santoku houchou

Bannou means versatile.

文化包丁 = bunka bouchou (not houchou)

A household multipurpose knife

Bunka means culture.

[sanrensho]

I wouldn't say a santoku is a hybrid between a Chinese cleaver and a chef's knife. I would just call it a short/wide general purpose knife. I don't know the history behind the santoku, but it is certainly the most common blade style found in a typical Japanese household. At least in my experience. The typical short length of a santoku makes it very accessible to non-pros.

[Hiroyuki]

I wouldn't say a santoku is a hybrid between a Chinese cleaver and a chef's knife. I would just call it a short/wide general purpose knife. I don't know the history behind the santoku, but it is certainly the most common blade style found in a typical Japanese household. At least in my experience. The typical short length of a santoku makes it very accessible to non-pros.

←

According to one source (Japanese only), both santoku houchou and bunka bouchou were developed as Japan's original versatile knives in 1948.

[Octaveman]

The blade is made of a harder metal which means a sharper blade but shorter times between sharpenings to maintain it? Japanese knives are only ground on one side as opposed to both sides of Western knives. Japanese knives come in left and right handed versions because of this.

Time between sharpenings depend on usage with either soft Euro knives or hard Japanese knives. It only makes sense that the harder the blade, the longer it will stay sharp thus longer times between sharpenings. Since they are harder, they can be ground thinner and are lighter, more nimble as a result.

Only traditional Japanese knives are single beveled (right or left handed). Most if not all western style Japanese knives are double beveled with a 70/30 or 80/20 bevel ratio rather than 50/50 with Euro knives. I should note that there are western style Japanese knives that are 50/50 out there as well. This is an attempt to simulate the more precise single bevel cutting action while still keeping it double beveled. Even with one-side favored grinds, it has little to no affect on left handed users. Many lefty's I know say there's very little to almost unnoticable difference in cutting action. Why? Because the edge is so thin to begin with that a fraction of a millimeter difference in bevel angles from side to side is not enough to make a difference. Even if it is noticed, it only takes a few uses to get used to it. Once you see what it's like to cut a carrot and not even feel any resistance, then you won't care any more...believe me. I just got a knife that felt like I was cutting air when it met mr. carrot for the first time.

[Shalmanese]

What does 70/30 50/50 mean? I take it it's the proportion of the angle on either side of the knife? ie: a 30 degree overall angle would be 21 degrees on one side and 9 degrees on the other in 70/30 but 15 and 15 in 50/50?

[C. sapidus]

What does 70/30 50/50 mean? I take it it's the proportion of the angle on either side of the knife? ie: a 30 degree overall angle would be 21 degrees on one side and 9 degrees on the other in 70/30 but 15 and 15 in 50/50?

←

Shalmanese: Two different issues.

1. Angle of the cutting surface. If the overall angle is 30 degrees, it will typically be ground at 15 degrees on both sides. This is independent of edge symmetry (see below). For a far better explanation than I can give, see the figure titled “Knife Angles Explained” in Section 1 of Chad's Knife Maintenance and Sharpening tutorial.

2. Symmetry of the cutting edge. Typical Western knives are ground symmetrically (50:50). Traditional Japanese knives are chisel-ground (100:0). In other words, the edge is ground on only one side. Many Western-style Japanese knives have intermediate symmetry such as 80:20 or 70:30. Symmetry is independent of edge angle. See the first figure in Section 3 of Chad’s tutorial.

Heck, read all of Chad’s tutorial. It is very good. Apologies if my explanation is confusing - I wish I could summon a picture of a knife with 80:20 symmetry ground at a 30 degree angle (15 degrees on both sides).

[Shalmanese]

Heck, read all of Chad’s tutorial. It is very good. Apologies if my explanation is confusing - I wish I could summon a picture of a knife with 80:20 symmetry ground at a 30 degree angle (15 degrees on both sides).

←

This is what I'm imagining yet it's evidently not what your suggesting:

This is what Chad suggests a western and japanese knife look like from his diagrams. I can only assume that a 70/30 knife looks like the 3rd example but it seems like your saying that's wrong.

[Octaveman]

You're right, Shalmanese. The 70/30 on your picture basically illustrates that concept...a combined angle of 30* with 21* on one side and 9* on the other. At least thats my understanding of it. Keep in mind that almost all Euro knives have a combined angle of about 40* or 20/20 because of the softer metal. A 30* combined would be hard to keep the edge from failing.

[C. sapidus]

This is what I'm imagining yet it's evidently not what your suggesting:

This is what Chad suggests a western and japanese knife look like from his diagrams. I can only assume that a 70/30 knife looks like the 3rd example but it seems like your saying that's wrong.

←

Chad and others addressed this issue in rbm's "Sharpening with waterstones" tutorial. I have quoted the part of the conversation that seems most relevant. It seems to support the idea that Western-style Japanese knives are ground asymmetrically but at the same angle on both sides.

Sorry, I goofed up the quotes a bit, but I think the gist is clear. I am very interested in the correct answer to your question, because I will be playing with the edges on my new Japanese knives as soon as time allows.

Chad: any new information since ~2004?

QUOTE (Chad @ Apr 20 2004, 07:48 AM)

QUOTE (Quinn8it @ Apr 11 2004, 02:41 PM)

I would like a little help figuring out the angles on my "western style" Japanese Knives. I Have Misono Knives...The Korin web site recomends sharpening the same angle on both sides(like a german knife), it demos this on a Misono 440... if you look at the knife it is Constructed flat on one side and bev on the other, but when it comes out of the box there is obviously a thin mirrored edge on the back side, ie. it wasnt sharpened flat. I have heard of using the same angle on both sides but using a 10:1 ratio in terms of strokes on the front to the strokes on the back. I have used this technique to some degree of success. I am able to get a mirror shine and it will shave very well, but i havent been happy with the longevity of this blade. I am also interested in sharpening Globals???

                            Thanks 

<snip>

As for your Misono, I'm at a loss. Most Japanese knives, in my experience, are either a single bevel with a flat back or double beveled with equal angles on both sides, like western knives. My Hattori, for example, is sharpened like a western knife. I haven't run across one with a primary single bevel and a secondary bevel on the backside.

This is just my opinion, but I'd sharpen it like a yanagi-ba or sushi knife -- keep the primary bevel and flatten out the back. You'd sharpen the edge face as normal but only grind the burr off the back side by laying the knife flat on the stone for a pass or two along the stone. But that's just me.

Chad

I have used Masahiro, Nenox, and Glestain western-style knives for many years now (never used a Misono), and all have similar geometry to what Quinn8it describes. If you take a cross-section of a western blade and turn it so that one side of the "V" is vertical, then put a tiny, tiny front and back bevel on, you can get an idea of this. The back-bevel is ~0.007" wide as the knives come from the maker. (I'm at the office, and I haven't got the knives before me to measure.) I have experienced no problems with edge retention or difficulty in sharpening. I would posit that Quinn8it is sharpening at too small an angle if edge durability is an issue.

On blades as thin as are common on this style of knife (for example, my 300mm Nenox cook's is about as thick as a 6" or 8" Wusthof), I would advise against "flattening out" the back. One, because the return on the effort involved would not be sufficient (these aren't hollow on the back like a good Japanese-style knife, and even if you're only taking off ten thousandths or so, it's still a lot of work, especially if you're going for a nice polish); two, if the back-bevel is removed without making a corresponding change in the bevel angle on the *front* of the knife, the durability of the edge will be greatly reduced; three, Nenox and Glestain know what they're doing - if I had seen this geometry first in a lesser knife, I would have been a skeptic as well - it is actually a very intelligent design, as borne out in use.