Culinary Duplicity

[Brad S]

Never mind.

[oliva]

Chicken Broth from a can, (I feel verrrrry guilty about this), esp. when I use it for adding to a lovely asparagus soup or a risotto I am making.

Sour shrimp paste (for Tom Yum soup, but I make my own thai curry pastes, so I guess that outweighs the "cheating")

[jaybee]

Killing my own steer and telling BBQ guests it is Black Angus.

Making venison stew and telling guests I got the deer myself with the right front fender of my Land Rover. (actually I don't own a Land Rover).

Well, seriously, I have on rare occasion served very good store-bought carrrot soup as a starter to an otherwise laboriously prepared multi-course meal and didn't let on it was store bought.

[Brad S]

I don't think you really give a crap what chefs have to say on this site. It seems more about self gratification and reading your own posts.

It is much easier to sit on your high horses and judge the work of others while you have little to no practical expereance.

I have never seen a bunch of more self serving pshedeo ego driven people in my life.

[jaybee]

I don't think you really give a crap what chefs have to say on this site. It seems more about self gratification and reading your own posts.

Speaking for myself, as I am fond of doing, I very much appreciate your posts and that of other chefs. For one thing you help clarify the difference between cooking as a hobby for a few people now and then and cooking for a living. A chef, it seems to me, has to blend praticality, efficiency, economy and availability of ingredients to get the best outcome for his circumstance. I am delighted to know about buying premade puff pastry, which up 'til now I've avoided out if some weird guilt. I use Pillsbury refrigerated pie crusts when I'm too pressed to make my own dough. I found that if I use lots of really good sweet Normandy butter, the crust winds up tasting delicious.

Putting a blop of creme frais into some soups and sauces really brings them out and creates a great mouthfeel. So what's the issue here?

[tommy]

I don't think you really give a crap what chefs have to say on this site. It seems more about self gratification and reading your own posts.

It is much easier to sit on your high horses and judge the work of others while you have little to no practical expereance.

I have never seen a bunch of more self serving pshedeo ego driven people in my life.

ah ha! this is right in line with my new sig line. i'm glad someone has seen me for who i really am.

[Brad S]

Well, here's one illusion in this thread--that butter and/or cream in modern dishes are overdone by inexperienced or younger chefs.  that may be true, but sorry,not exclusive--to my palate, eating around, a heavy reliance on butter (and fat) is modern cooking's open secret and many of the best and best known chefs still use it freely, especially at the high end.  where do you think all these young sous chefs are learning it? top chefs use it by choice--not because they're unaware of alternatives.

My comment was not designed to say that butter and or cream (or any other fat for that matter)should not be used.

I also was not asking if you prefere to use sweet or salted butter in ones cooking.

I understand being a great pastry chef as a few of you are here on eGullet that fat is an indespecicible commodity to your foods. You work by formulas,and have little leeway to change it. Perhaps my posting my original question about the use of fat Etc should have been more specific to the % of people curious.

The top chefs who use butter (as I do also) are aware of all the alternitives out there..I turn to butter for choice for so many things,but also enjoy the oppurtunity to spread my wings and indulge myself and my guests in different options

[Suvir Saran]

I don't think you really give a crap what chefs have to say on this site. It seems more about self gratification and reading your own posts.

It is much easier to sit on your high horses and judge the work of others while you have little to no practical expereance.

I have never seen a bunch of more self serving pshedeo ego driven people in my life.

A caped chef,

Why such a post? I am with Jaybee and certainly many others that enjoy the wealth of information shared by professionals like Steven Klc, Polly, Wingding, Chefette, yourself and countless others. It is a treat for those like me who are chefs by interest.

Also, I have read through this thread and found no reason for you to feel like you are not being respected. Maybe you have read into something that is not apparent to those of us that are not trained chefs. And unfortunately, we may be in the majority here. Please, do not read between the lines, or even try and bring form to what may not even exist between the lines if you really do not look way too deep.

Maybe you can think calmly, realize that Jaybee and I and many others love seeing trained chefs debate with us and around us and share with us their unique perspective that also helps us understand a lot of what we often learn just by trial and error and often by instinct. We have immense respect for chefs and others that work hard in kitchens that feed hungry and wanting minds and palates like ours.

We have no ego... We have pride in being lovers of food. We disagree and we do it with care. We agree and we do it as anyone would. We choose to disagree and still find it in ourselves to find comfort in what we collectively decide as being the best for a larger goal=the site and the collective best of our fellow members. Knowing this, after some given challenges, we have mostly always found it in us to move on in grace.

Like all things in life, we have our moments, of both grace and when we lose some, but largely, we are a motley crew with an interesting mix of butter, cream or even oils of many different kinds, that have realized that while we may be somewhat different in form and spirit, we are able to add that little zest to life that makes people smile. In knowing that, even in our differences, we most often find the common ground and move on with a smile.

I am sorry you felt the way you did. I cannot deny you that. But I also wanted to share with you my unique perspective on this thread alone. I did not see any friction or ego or verbal bashing that could deliberately hurt another.

Please do look at all of this with a new perspective. Maybe you will find a way of looking at things from another side. Maybe then, your feelings may not feel as hurt. Maybe they would feel not hurt at all. And we can all move on from that point, and again, share and debate and talk about all those wonderful food related things that bring so many of us together. The professionally trained few and the larger amateurs but still amazingly food-centric majority.

[Suvir Saran]

Well, here's one illusion in this thread--that butter and/or cream in modern dishes are overdone by inexperienced or younger chefs.  that may be true, but sorry,not exclusive--to my palate, eating around, a heavy reliance on butter (and fat) is modern cooking's open secret and many of the best and best known chefs still use it freely, especially at the high end.  where do you think all these young sous chefs are learning it? top chefs use it by choice--not because they're unaware of alternatives.

My comment was not designed to say that butter and or cream (or any other fat for that matter)should not be used.

I also was not asking if you prefere to use sweet or salted butter in ones cooking.

I understand being a great pastry chef as a few of you are here on eGullet that fat is an indespecicible commodity to your foods. You work by formulas,and have little leeway to change it. Perhaps my posting my original question about the use of fat Etc should have been more specific to the % of people curious.

The top chefs who use butter (as I do also) are aware of all the alternitives out there..I turn to butter for choice for so many things,but also enjoy the oppurtunity to spread my wings and indulge myself and my guests in different options

A caped chef,

I really did not even think you could be offended by those words. I would have never picked those lines. But there is the proof that we are all so different.

I still do not think those lines were meant to negate your point. In fact, they just take the debate into a logical next step, to share another perspective on what was shared thus far.

So, again, I really would urge you to not take anything personally. We need you chefs to debate and share with us every side of such issues. Only then can those of us that are not professionals in this world of food, have a chance to learn.

[oliva]

Suvir, I think you are being too magnanimous. A caped chef could have articulated his thoughts better than just lashing out without an explanation. This website is supposed to have a "fun factor" in it, no, for all of us who come home after a day's work, be it as a chef or an economist???

From A caped chef's comment it seems I was mistaken, this is an "elitist" website for professional chefs only, I am sorry, I thought it was for food lovers as well.

These are the sort of mean comments which make people never want to log onto egullet again....I for one will not be checking this thread again....

[Suvir Saran]

This website is supposed to have a "fun factor" in it, no, for all of us who come home after a day's work, be it as a chef or an economist???

From A caped chef's comment it seems I was mistaken, this is an "elitist" website for professional chefs only, I am sorry, I thought it was for food lovers as well.

Absolutely! This is a site for any and all food lovers. That is all it claims to be. Those that give it labels do so on their own whim and fancy.

If it had any label attached about what market it catered to, Oliva, I would never be on this site.

I am here for as you so correctly say, it is the site where food lovers leave prejudice, bias, egos and baggage for the most part, and share what they love and are affected by in the realm of food and food memories.

You said it as I too believe it to be true.

[Fat Guy]

It's okay to participate here if you hate food too. We're quite permissive.

[Suvir Saran]

These are the sort of mean comments which make people never want to log onto egullet again....I for one will not be checking this thread again....

Oliva I agree that comments like that are very damaging. In fact that is exactly why I would not want to call those words that made me sad and I can see they had a similar affect on you, mean words.

They are damaging words. In appropriate, poorly timed and out of place.

I am certain they are misplaced here, as they would be on any thread. And it is not being magnanimous, but only my effort to make the person saying these things, understand that their perspective is not perhaps based on any truth.

If I would have been silent and only reacted in a fashion similar to the way those poor words were posted, I too would act foolishly. I owe it to myself; this site and generous members like you to let someone that is casting misguided aspersions against us to know better.

It would be a shame if a member acting so coarsely thinks of our silence as even very remotely being one of acceptance. That would be a shame.

I would have been happier never having seen those words. But since they are uttered, and we are a free speech site, it is also up to us to put those words in a logical and fair place.

I have no place for them in my interaction with eGullet. And I am glad to see that you feel the same way. Now A caped chef knows there are others that were not in agreement with their way of thinking.

[Brad S]

To all,

My apoligies.....

I have perhaps over reacted and read between lines that were not drawn.

Olivia,I am sorry to have offended you,as well as Suvir whom I respect greatly.

I should have taken care of my baggage in private.

B

[nyfirepatrolchef]

In 20 years, I seriously doubt Ive been in a firehouse kitchen that DIDNT have a bottle of Gravy Master or a can of Old Bay on the shelf. It may be ten years old, but its there.

[Jon Tseng]

marigold vegetable bouillon (powder)

which i discovered, may i add, years before delia smith found out and touted it to the hoi polloi

an excellent substitute if a light/vegetable stock is called for, although a little on the salty side

cheerio

j

[GordonCooks]

Maybe I should have said "Culinary Shortcuts"

I don't feel the use of butter or cream is really duplicity - It's there for you taste. Maybe copious amounts are. I'm reminded of some less than stellar Lobster I put into a risotto. I pureed a can of green giant corn and dumped it in. "Oooh Aaaaaah, the lobster is so fresh !" yes, it was caught this month.

I don't expect the pros to reveal much because it's a little like going to Barney's and asking what they paid for something. Most of the pros have little to reveal anyway. The competition is just too stiff out there.

[Steve Klc]

Let's expand this a bit--here are a few things I use regularly. I wonder if any of you feel I'm cheating or being duplicitous--and this speaks a bit to what Shaw was saying about possible illusions among diners and foodies and pros:

Frozen fruit puree. I use it all the time--it's sometime, sometimes, better than the "real" thing. It is certainly more consistent--it saves time--more efficient because it is already strained and comes in convenient 1 kg packages. It can be of a very very high quality--picked at the peak of freshness and flash processed and then frozen.

Now--am I cheating? This isn't to say I ONLY use frozen puree and NEVER fresh fruit in season--and some frozen purees are better than others, even within a brand, say Boiron or Ravifruit, I have my favorite for coconut or for passionfruit. Often I layer fruit flavors--fresh, caramelized, roasted, dried, frozen.

Here's another--I buy these cherries already in brandy, called griottes. Cheating because I don't pick and "can" my own? I don't use them often but every now and then, in a frangiapane tart or with pistachio creme brulee, ummm, they're so good.

Almond flour. I buy it rather than "grind" my own from whole almonds because flour has the oil pressed out of it and you just can't do that yourself. You just can't grind it that finely at home or in a pro kitchen because the nut oil gets in the way. And gound almonds (with all the oil) just don't perform the same way in recipes--especially for baking--as flour does. Now, I would never think of this as cheating but is there a perception I am cheating if you heard of some baker who said they pick and grind their own almonds?

One product that I think would fall into the category of cheating/duplicity would be something called "confectionary glaze" or coating chocolate--which is kind of a faux-chocolate product that has had all the cocoa butter extracted from it, rendering it this this kind of greasy dark pretend chocolate. I don't use it but some pros do--you don't have to temper it, since it doesn't have cocoa butter in it it is less expensive than a fine chocolate--this is the junk usually on all those ubiquitous "chocolate" dipped strawberries you get from caterers or on bakery sheet cakes or commercial pastries that looks like chocolate but then you taste it and dreckkkk. Would you find this culinarily duplicit? (I would.)

What about something like a Duncan Hines box cake mix? There are pro versions of this--"Gen mixes"--for all kinds of things like genoise cake, pastry cream, muffins etc. That's in part why so many of the commercially baked goods tastes exactly the same everywhere--huge 50# bags of these powders are delivered by the Sysco's of the country to commercial foodservice outlets--we know this goes on and we know it is a convenience and cost issue--but are we prepared to pay more to lessen the reliance on these products? Would you pay more for a smaller muffin, made completely from scratch, with less sugar and better dried fruits?

And many pros have quite a bit to reveal. It isn't competition holding any of us back. As a pro you never get to the point where you stop learning from others or stop challenging yourselves. As soon as you disengage, you become less vital.

[mhadam]

Before I give away my shameful secret, I have to apologize for it -- b/c it's soooooo bad, oh so bad. I don't do it all the time, but it's great in a pinch and no one is the wiser *I hope*

I make a great chocolate mousse. Really I do. But in a pinch, I take a box of chocolate pudding mix, you know the small box, add about a cup of heavy cream and mixed it. Voila -- chocolate mousse. I beat the thing till it is smooth and that "not to heavy, not to light" consistency, drop it into little crystal bowls and top it off with fresh berries.

[cakewalk]

Excuse me for intruding, because obviously I'm no chef, and everything I do in the kitchen probably amounts to "cheating." But I find the topic interesting. Where do you draw the line between making things easier for yourselves ("acceptable"), and just plain slacking off ("not acceptable")? Is the distinction only to be made if the person eating the food can tell you did something different? Is it a matter of how you yourself feel about what you just cooked (guilt, gee I shouldn't have done that)? I'm trying to apply the principle to other, everyday things we all do. I can't think of anyone who feels guilty about using a washing machine instead of washing clothes by hand, etc. Is there any sort of "standard," even an unwritten one?

[chefette]

I think the heart of this topic - and the controversy on this thread - is

1- the difference (the fine line) between shortcuts and cheats.

2- each individual's tolerance/philosophy of shortcuts

As a professional or as a home cook, when do you feel you are 'cheating' versus making choices for the sake of time or economy.

I think that Gordon Cook's initial point was really more specifically about taking short cuts. Steve Klc's point was also good about the use of prepared purees, flours, pastes, etc. I am aware of people who feel we are all hopeless imposter cheats because we buy almond paste and marzipane. However, if we all had to make our own, how many people could afford our products? It would be a different world.

The shortcuts or cheats are also dictated by skill levels and accessibility of products.

[Fat Guy]

Superb question. For me, the first thing I have to do is evaluate context. In restaurants, I expect different levels of performance in different regions, at different levels of luxury, etc. In homes, when I'm a guest, I don't really have a right to expect anything but in my internal calculus of a host's culinary mettle I look at his or her skill set and economic means versus what is actually being produced. And yes, perception is also a standard, but I think it has to be expert perception as opposed to what you can pull on your audience (though if your audience can't appreciate a particular distinction and doesn't give a crap I don't mind if you offer them cost savings through a shortcut).

[chefette]

Quote Fat Guy: "(though if your audience can't appreciate a particular distinction and doesn't give a crap I don't mind if you offer them cost savings through a shortcut)"

How do you determine your audience's ability to appreciate?

[Fat Guy]

With my friends, I basically know it. I assume we all adjust our performance when entertaining for foodie friends versus friends who are as happy or happier with spaghetti marinara. With customers in a restaurant setting, I'm not sure, but you can probably draw some conclusions based on who is eating where and ordering what. I think anybody has the ability to develop more appreciation but most people are so unlikely to do it that they move into the category of "can't" as far as I'm concerned.

[chefette]

Quote Fat Guy: "I think anybody has the ability to develop more appreciation but most people are so unlikely to do it that they move into the category of "can't" as far as I'm concerned."

I think it is just a question of exposure. Where is Wilfrid to shed some philosophical light on this? Just think of the first wine or beer you ever drank, what was it? I had some sort of red Riuniti (it was sort of like a fizzy punch) but I liked it. Moved on, tried other things - first thing you know I am working at a wine show as a volunteer pourer and talking the guy at the French Table into letting me take home the AMAZING bottle of Bordeaux ($300 a bottle or something to that effect) he was pouring out for tasters. If it hadn't been for that I would have thought all bordeaux was the nasty stuff they sell at the grocery store. Sometimes people just don't know there is another level, or they know it, but can't find the stair case.

Is the real cheat that you assume they don't care or are somehow incapable and don't even give them the chance?

I know that it can be very disappointing to give someone something really nice (like Valhrona chocolate or Cluizel) and have them say they really prefer Hersheys, but next time they go for their favorite old Hersheys bar, maybe it just won't taste quite as good as they used to think now that I gave them an opportunity to try something else. Maybe they will be wracking their brain trying to recall what the heck type of chocolate I served them.