On comprehending Indian cuisine

[Jaymes]

But,  I can't be creative.  It is like language.  Even if I could spend a year in India studying cooking, I suspect I would still cook with an "accent."

When do you want to go, Jaymes?

I also haven't been able to participate in this thread as much as I'd like, but I absolutely concure with what Sandra & Jaymes are saying. I also feel that my Indian cooking (and my Chinese cooking, for that matter) are curtailed by my patchy understanding of the cultures that the cuisines spring from. I'm not placing a value judgement on that - if I'd spent a reasonable amount of time in India, I would have seized the opportunity to immerse myself in the culture, language AND cooking - but it's just one of those things. I found the music analogy quite apt. You can appreciate the end product, and yet not be sure if your appreciation really takes in the the experience its creator intended.

Interesting how this thread is starting to tap into the whole, "how do you like your steak and do you have the right to judge something according to the way you like it instead of how the chef presents it" discussion going on elsewhere on the site. Takes me right back to English Literature 100, this does.

And I'm totally up for this egullet road trip to India, btw.

Indeed, Sandra...."like language."

And, to carry the analogy further, I've been told that the most difficult aspect to master when learning another language is a "sense of humor."

Because humor, like cooking, depends on the ability to improvise, to see things from many angles, form a pun, or a play on words, or slang, or a joke that draws upon common experience.

So although one can memorize the rules and the words and the ingredients in both language and cooking, improvisation and nuance are the last abilities one can command.

[Suvir Saran]

So although one can memorize the rules and the words and the ingredients in both language and cooking, improvisation and nuance are the last abilities one can command.

That is what I understood John as having conveyed in his piece. It is that what can never be conveyed in ant lines or by dictate, but only learned by having lived and discovered a world completely and yet not.

You hit the nail in the head with that sentence. I feel I am American in so many ways. My friends and family in India treat me as a foreigner now. While I may never be All American to most that were born here, to my own peer that I grew up with, to my elders and my family, I am changed and different. While I certainly understand and can speak and cook very similarly to an American, there are many aspects of the language and food that will never be mine. Or at least not just in 10 years.

There have been members on this site that have made fun or pointed out the difference they see in my style of writing. Some have done so on the forums publicly, others through e-mails and PM's. I share this not to ask for sympathy, but to add facts to your point. Those that have mocked me for my difference have every right to do so, they find me foreign and strange and very different. Not everyone can accept difference with ease. We all have our own way of dealing with it.

But with every such incident, I have understood how it would take a very long time for me to get accepted into this culture. And even more time to become one that people who come from this culture can look up to as being someone who can even remotely represent them in any way.

While I call the US my home, this countries politics affect me most, my hard work is lived here, my tax monies help the larger pool of people just as others mine, I eat, drink, find shelter and share in this land. But, still, even though I have called this home for the last years, I am not sure what I will have to learn or do differently before I am accepted as one of the majority that were born here.

So, when an American or an Indian or for that matter the national of any country tries to understand the culture and foods of another land or people, how can they forget to apply the same situation to themselves? How could they expect another standard for themselves?

But yes we each have hope that we can belong where we live and love and share and give and get. But while we can come close to reaching a point where we feel comfortable, it certainly does not mean that we are able to cross that barrier that exists between the natives and us.

In fact that is the irony of the lives of many first generation migrants living in their new homes. New countries are their homes, but their souls and much of their minds and thoughts are lost somewhere between where they came from and where they have made a home. They often have to live several lives many times a day. It is not always a bad thing. It is not always good. It just is what it is.

I too would like to travel and live and immerse myself in the lap of those cultures that fascinate me every living moment. But like Sandra and you, it is a hope I have, and I would love to do it, but I still am not sure if I would have mastered completely or even come close enough to make anything more than a mere scratch with just a couple of years even in these places. I have the experience of living in a foreign land 10 years, and even though I have been a resident and one belonging to this new land, I know how I am most often made to feel I am a foreigner. Not just for I look different, or speak different or dress different, but for I understand and react to the very basic nuances of this land differently from those that were born and raised here. The looking, dressing and speaking part of this equation is the easy part. I have broken those barriers many times. I have no issue with any of those. But when I am put in my place with one from this land for reasons of my lack of command on some of the very basic nuances of this peoples life and existence, I understand very quickly how foreign I still am in my own home.

I live as a stranger in this land even 10 years after I first came here. And I know strangers who have lived here over 30 years. They are still strangers 3 decades after they migrated here. Their children are the first to find more settled lives here. While the children could face discrimination for looking a certain way, they cannot as easily be made to feel foreign for lack of understanding the common parlance and nuances. They have no other experience. But for the first generation, life is the same wherever they are. That is our burden. But we can learn and find some peace with ourselves and our lot in accepting our situation as being no different from that of many others. And if we are humble and wanting, we can get as far as one can with this little handicap. It can be a fulfilling journey even with that small handicap.

[jaybee]

But when I am put in my place with one from this land for reasons of my lack of command on some of the very basic nuances of this peoples life and existence, I understand very quickly how foreign I still am in my own home.

My theory on this subject, for what it's worth:

Human beings are alert, above all, to people differrent from themselves for one simple reason--our innate sense of self-preservation. Our instincts are that the people most similar to ourselves are the least threat, those most different, the most threat, Perhaps this comes from cave days or our tribal heritage. So it is that people immediately scan a stranger for signs of difference. The most secure among us are not ill at ease with signs of difference, unless we have learned that a particular sign means danger (the accent of an enemy at war time).

People who are ill at ease sometimes resort to mockery as a way of dealing with their anxiety or as a kind of aggression against what they feel may be a threat. It is like a carnivore baring his teeth when another animal approaches. People from the parts of our society most unused to "strangers" (small towns in the mid-west, for example) are most likely to react. People from New York, who live with all kinds of people daily, are least likely to react this way. However, after Sept. 11th, anyone wearing a turban triggered a reaction for this reason.

This is why it is so difficult for a "foreigner" in any society to completely conceal signs of diference from the "native" populations, when everyone's radar is tuned to pick up even the slightest nuance of difference.

[John Whiting]

Foreigners are accepteed as equals in any country after they gain substantial financial and political power. Prejudice against southern Europeans evaporated first in America in San Francisco, where Latins were rich and powerful from the beginning. The Irish were scorned in Boston until they took over the city. The Italians were looked down on in Providence RI until the Mafia made the city an offer it couldn't refuse. The status of Jews in England was greatly elevated after Disraeli became Prime Minister. African-Americans, at least the prosperous middle-class, have rapidly gained status as they have been elected to office. (Look at the ultra-respectable examples Bush was able to co-opt!)

So, Suvir -- when will you be running for Congress?!

[Jaymes]

I have friends who escaped from Czechoslovakia in the Soviet Bloc days. They are wonderful people: thin and elegant and lovely to look at; brilliant, both are engineers, he mechanical she electrical; gracious and beautifully mannered.

But when they first escaped, they went to Switzerland. They had no friends. No one to hike with, dine with, drink and chat with. Although they tried to reach out innumerable times, no one would reach back nor accept the gift of their friendship. And they lived there for ten years.

At one point, they asked a Swiss, "Why do we have no friends. Why does no one wish to socialize with us."

And the Swiss said, "When you are in our country five generations, only then can you belong."

So my Czech friends came to Texas, where they "belonged" right away.

[Suvir Saran]

So, Suvir -- when will you be running for Congress?!

John,

Thanks for teasing me. I wish you were serious and I wish I had what it took to be a Congressman. But, I am far too honest and the world far too scared of what is different.

I do not forsee being accepted in the world of politics very easily.

But thanks for making me feel worthy of being an American Congressman. Maybe it will remain a dream somewhere hidden in my psyche that will find fruition in another life and time.

Till then food and its ability to build bridges in the mouth of difference and strife occupy my living moments. It is a more powerful venue for true politics anyways.

[Suvir Saran]

The most secure among us are not ill at ease with signs of difference, unless we have learned that a particular sign means danger (the accent of an enemy at war time). 

How nicely said. You are soooo right about it Jaybee. The saddest part is when you see people who have lived the end result of fear and how it can manifest itself in ugly ways, forget their own experiences with that innocent but misguided reality and in their own place of birth, these same people treat the foreigners there in the same way.

And similarly when chefs from one land try and explore the cuisine of another with great confidence and are mocked by the others, they find it difficult to accept the truth of the many realities that can limit their task. But in their own world, they create the same hurdles for others trying to accept and make their own, what these chefs have understood as being theirs.

[Simon Majumdar]

And similarly when chefs from one land try and explore the cuisine of another with great confidence and are mocked by the others, they find it difficult to accept the truth of the many realities that can limit their task.

Suvir

While I think chefs from different countries should be applauded for immersing themselves in new cultures, the "mocking" is usually the result of the hamfisted use that many people make of the ingredients they discover or the misuse of ingredients to make them more palatable to different audiences

In the UK, there is a much lauded restaurant called The Cinnamon Club. It is a "modern Indian restaurant running along high end french lines.

I found this restaurant dishonest. A harsh word, but I can think of no other for a place that debases foods to make them more acceptable.

If you are going to make a Dhansak, but are not sure if people will appreciate the sublime tastes and unusual textures, then your aim should be to make the very best you can with the best ingredients etc. You aim should not be to dumb it down or make it with ingredients that are less challenging.

I am all for people taking ideas and using them. On this Board A CAPED CHEF has said that he is collecting ideas we have shared. I am thrilled by that, but it has to be done with subtley and intelligence.

S

[Bux]

At one point, they asked a Swiss, "Why do we have no friends.  Why does no one wish to socialize with us."

And the Swiss said, "When you are in our country five generations, only then can you belong."

So my Czech friends came to Texas, where they "belonged" right away.

The Swiss view you as social sluts. Of course in Maine they regard the Swiss as "easy."

[Damian]

After becoming New York's number one baseball fan, Suvir, can a mayoral candidacy really be that far behind?

[Suvir Saran]

After becoming New York's number one baseball fan, Suvir, can a mayoral candidacy really be that far behind?

Damian,

Mayoral candidacy does not have the honesty that even an organised sport like baseball could find in itself.

Politics the world over have become all about lobbyists ruling what the public quite willingly accepts.

But yes since I discovered Baseball and was able to enjoy it, I guess the enjoyment of even cheap electoral politics could somehow show its face to me in time.

[Suvir Saran]

And similarly when chefs from one land try and explore the cuisine of another with great confidence and are mocked by the others, they find it difficult to accept the truth of the many realities that can limit their task.

Suvir

While I think chefs from different countries should be applauded for immersing themselves in new cultures, the "mocking" is usually the result of the hamfisted use that many people make of the ingredients they discover or the misuse of ingredients to make them more palatable to different audiences

I am all for people taking ideas and using them. On this Board A CAPED CHEF has said that he is collecting ideas we have shared. I am thrilled by that, but it has to be done with subtley and intelligence.

S

Simon,

I agree with your sentiment entirely. I have been a supporter of even Fusion that has been mostly confusion. I borrowed that from a great food critic. She aptly said that about fusion food.

But I also feel there is truly a place for fusion and it only needs to transcend from being a joke into becoming an art form. For that to happen like any culture or cuisine or peoples, it needs to come of age. It needs to find its roots.

What we have lost in the process of translation in these days in this world has been the patience and virtue and distance one would normally keep from such basic and often banal stuff. In our need to rate, review and debate even, that which has hardly any consequence yet, we have given such power to amateurs that they seem to have lost the need to further their devotion to their art form. As with any debate, even two positive critiques that come in the midst of several damaging ones, these artists get lost in the bulk of just those two and forget the burden that the majority opinion carries.

Such tendencies in our person, to judge, rate and honor in most unfortunate times, has often killed the process of learning whereby fusion of cultures and cuisines could actually become something more meaningful.

I am all for people immersing themselves in each other’s cultures, cuisines and arts. That is what makes us enjoy life in a way no politician with a very limited outlook can ever share with us.

What we need to understand and critically, is the need to place such infantile efforts just where they ought to be. And we need to encourage those daring and risk-taking artists that make such fusion their vocation. But to give them instant celebrity status with hardly any reason or history behind what they are creating is to mock the very existence of such a great form of art. Art needs no gratification. True artists create for themselves and for their own search for new and extended horizons. Steven Klc is one such chef. He has done much in the world of Indian-French fusion. He could have easily found great celebrity status by making some fortuitous deals, but he has rather taken the position of forming his art to be one that he respects and as and when he finds a perfect home and place and time for it to be shared in the larger world, I am sure we will see something shared with us that will not just be a winner for the season. But will be soon accepted as a new classic.

Several fusion chefs and restaurants have come and gone. They have each had their place. What has been misguided is the personal satisfaction many of us get by being able to classify, label and rank restaurants and chefs that need our encouragement and taste bus, but not necessarily our accolades that quickly. There is much shared even in simple participation.

I think John Whiting may have touched that crass reality of our lives the world over. Realities that have made us rely constantly on pleasures that often are hollow and whither away even sooner than the end of one season.

Simon, I am not sure if you know this, but I too was classified by several American journals as a champion of the Fusion movement in the US, alongside such great chefs like Steven Klc, Raji Jallepalli, Floyd Cardoz and a few others. So, I am by no ways opposed to the idea of sharing, absorbing and taking. In fact, it is exciting to me to see cuisines and cultures grow and adapt and change with time. Those that cannot will be dull and stagnant and become only written history. So, I encourage and respect every chef that makes the gallant effort to explore. I question the pathetic manner in which some with need to ascribe labels very foolishly and selfishly have perhaps added much to kill the efforts of the brave few that began such a journey in sincerity

.

[Stone]

Some thoughts:

1) To answer the question many are asking, I believe this is Beeton:

Beeton(God bless Google.)

2) I've now gone back to read the original post a number of times, and, well, I just can't seem to do it. (God damn t.v. and its destructive force on my attention span.) I don't know what, if any, point it is trying to make. I don't understand why it generated such anger at first. Although I find the thoughts it generated quite interesting. (But I find it hard to believe that any Texan would believe that anyone from Czechoslovakia belongs in Texas. Just kidding.)

All that follows is probably way off the mark, but since I have to kill another 20 minutes before I can go home . . . .

3) Why would anyone think the subtleties of Indian cooking are inherently more difficult to master than the subtleties of French cooking, Italian, or Chinese. Does this mean that Americans, who have no real history, can't cook any cuisine because they can't truly understand the culture from which it came? If Indian cooking is so difficult for a non-Indian to master, is it because of some inherent "cultural" aspect to the food, or the simple fact that it uses more spices, in more combinations, which are not familiar to Westerners? In my layman's understanding, French cuisine is technically more difficult than Italian, but have no doubt that the differences can be taught to those that want to learn.

I think that we in the West tend to assume that all things Eastern come imbued with some "spiritual" energy that can't be replicated by those with white skin. I think we like to think that way because then we become "spiritual" simply by eating tofu, purchasing a yoga mat, or burning incense. I asked my yoga teacher (yes, Shaw, I do yoga, and no, it's not pretty) why he calls out the poses in Sanskrit names that no one in the class understands and few can remember. Perhaps the same reason that my father cringes at the thought of Saturday morning temple service in English, not Hebrew.

Would JW have had an easier time setting the sound for a philharmonic? a rock band? a klezmer band? To a person sitting in X seat of Y row, should the sound be set one way for Indian classical music and another for jazz and another for opera? Or do we want to set the speakers to the the cleanest, fullest sound regardless of what is playing?

4) How should I properly answer people who tell me that "I just don't understand jazz." What's to understand? Do you like it? If not, o.k. I don't like Ornette Coleman's freestyle jazz. I could say that I don't understand it. But that's not right. I don't understand why people listen to it. I don't like hip-hop and "scratch" music. I understand it. I just think it sucks.

5) Have I been trying to emulate Chinese cooking for years? No. I'm trying to cook it. And I can't seem to make it taste the way a restaurant does. I rarely use peanut oil. I never take the time to boil water so's I can blanche my one serving of veggies before I stir-fry. But does that mean that I have to travel to China and meditate for months before I can make a decent Hunan Chicken? (I wish it were that easy.)

I don't need to know what was going on in Vienna to play Mozart. But I do need to practice a lot more. On the other hand, I believe that Mozart, Stevie Ray Vaughn, and Horowitz had a gift (genetic, but still a gift); whereas I think that Iron Chef Japanese is a just a damn good cook. Some of my friends say they can't cook. I point out that they haven't tried. Or if they do, they don't pay attention.

6) What's the difference between trying to adapt one cuisine to another and trying to adjust the two together? What does that mean? As my philosophy professor might comment, "dog spelled backwards is god." When I cut back on the chili's or fish sauce to adopt Thai recipes for Western palates, am I engaging in cultural imperialism? Or am I adjusting?

I live in a town (San Fran) and and state (CA) where "fusion" invades just about evey restaurant. (Yes, I've been to an "authentic" Italian restaurant which served seared Ahi tuna and mango chutney.) Is there anything morally wrong with that? Is Tabla adapting or adjusting?

7) Is there something wrong with a chef taking a dish from another culture and selling it in America (or wherever) for whatever price she can get? Was my beef wellington "wrong" because I really thought it was invented by Napoleon's chef? Was my ceasar salad "improper" because I thought it was loved by Julius? Am incapable of making a decent Rogan Josh because I don't understand how the Moghuls conquered Northern India? I'm a decent non-trained cook, but I didn't learn anything from my parents.

My friends tell me that my thai food is as good as they get in a restaurant. I think they're nuts.

I've peered over the wall at lots of restaurant kitchens. I don't see much going on there but the rapid spooning and squirting of stuff into a wok. I can't imagine that I loved the chicken with broccoli from Charlie Mom because the "chef" could trace his lineage back to [fill in some ancient Chinese chef here.]

8) Iron Chef Italian makes some good looking food, for non-Italian.

9) "So how, finally, can we properly understand a foreign cuisine?" Eat it.

10) Really, if anyone could send me a recipe for Hunan Chicken, just like they make it at China Pavillion in Ardsley, I'd be greatful.

11) I apologize for all of the above.

[Suvir Saran]

3) Why would anyone think the subtleties of Indian cooking are inherently more difficult to master than the subtleties of French cooking, Italian, or Chinese.  Does this mean that Americans, who have no real history, can't cook any cuisine because they can't truly understand the culture from which it came?  If Indian cooking is so difficult for a non-Indian to master, is it because of some inherent "cultural" aspect to the food, or the simple fact that it uses more spices, in more combinations, which are not familiar to Westerners?  In my layman's understanding, French cuisine is technically more difficult than Italian, but have no doubt that the differences can be taught to those that want to learn.

I think that we in the West tend to assume that all things Eastern come imbued with some "spiritual" energy that can't be replicated by those with white skin.  I think we like to think that way because then we become "spiritual" simply by eating tofu, purchasing a yoga mat, or burning incense.  I asked my yoga teacher (yes, Shaw, I do yoga, and no, it's not pretty) why he calls out the poses in Sanskrit names that no one in the class understands and few can remember.  Perhaps the same reason that my father cringes at the thought of Saturday morning temple service in English, not Hebrew.

Would JW have had an easier time setting the sound for a philharmonic?  a rock band?  a klezmer band?

No the subtleties of INdian cooking are not any more difficult than those of Chinese or French or Mexican or Italian cooking. They are only different and are mostly unexplored in English and most of the Western Hemisphere. Even those that have written about it in English have made little if any attempt to share the subtleties.

Also spices more than vegetables and meats have greater potency and power to change foods and tastes. And while one that has not understood spices will not understand this point, James Beard of course understood it and shared the very simple but basic practice of toasting spices before adding. Most chefs using them have not learned to do it, for many Indians take this simple skill as a given and often will not share that in recipes. Those simply learning from written pieces of culture will never know better and so have actually not even learned the basics. That is the point here. It is not unreal to forsee it happening, it only takes a real student and a real teacher to come together. And then, anything is possible.

And yes we in the west are using many things eastern as our way of adding yet another label to our lives. Like we have eaten in the best restaurant, food cooked by the best French, Italian, Chinese or Indian chef... and so we also feel we need to add more such labels into our lives and so some of this certainly has to do with what you share here. A great and valid point.

And believe me we in the east are no different, we copy the west and its lack of customs as a great freedom and something we must infect our own culture with completely. We in India had largely forgotten what "YOG" was until the westerners made it into a great Hype and trend, called it YOGA and now there are several Yoga institutes sprouting across Indian cities and areas where earlier there were none. Again a point to show that the world over, people do tend to copy one another and take from one another and worry about labels. East or west, humans are the same.

[Suvir Saran]

5)  Have I been trying to emulate Chinese cooking for years?  No. I'm trying to cook it. And I can't seem to make it taste the way a restaurant does.  I rarely use peanut oil.  I never take the time to boil water so's I can blanche my one serving of veggies before I stir-fry.  But does that mean that I have to travel to China and meditate for months before I can make a decent Hunan Chicken?  (I wish it were that easy.)

I don't need to know what was going on in Vienna to play Mozart.  But I do need to practice a lot more. On the other hand, I believe that Mozart, Stevie Ray Vaughn, and Horowitz had a gift (genetic, but still a gift); whereas I think that Iron Chef Japanese is a just a damn good cook.  Some of my friends say they can't cook.  I point out that they haven't tried.  Or if they do, they don't pay attention.

No you do not need to travel to India to learn Indian cooking. But you have to know India and Indian culture and cuisine to cook Indian food. What do most of the people living in the west know about India? Not much. We know more about France, England, even China than we know about India. We would be fooling ourselves to think otherwise.

Also what makes India more difficult to fathom is that India is tough for even an Indian to discover. There are far too many languages, religions, belief systems and cultural practices existing in ways that one would believe in travels around India that you have reached new countries. But in the west and more so in America, we have simplified India to be what we think of it. And what we can quickly associate with India.

What India is in reality, is a tapestry in which even some threads are still not familiar with one another even as they belong to one piece. I have had dinner parties with only Indian friends, and they discover new things about their country, things that text books, parents, teachers and history books could not teach unless history and anthropology are your majors.

You do not need to know what was going on in Vienna to play Mozart, but tell me a name of even one Indian chef? And no, Madhur Jaffrey, Julie Sahni and Suvir Saran are not chefs. We are more like food and cultural ambassadors of India. If you can give me one name, of a well known Indian chef, maybe you know more than most people living here. So, unless you know of that answer quite immediately, there is a gap between that culture and what you feel you know of it. Certainly it is not something you cannot fill, but for that, you have to make an effort. ANd that effort takes a certain effort that has to be grounded in real desire to learn.

Also you have notes you can read to play Mozart. What do you have to study Indian cuisine with that teaches you what you need to learn abou spices, their place in Indian cooking and why they are added in a certain season and at a certain time in a certain manner? Yes, in the last couple of years there has been an effort to train the minds curious about Indian cooking in America about these subtleties, but that effort is at a very early stage. So, we have great hope, that as we continue to live here, we will in the next few decades maybe see a significant filling in the large gap that exists in the knowledge of India.

It would be false to think that Indian food is even remotely as understood or known as French, Italian, Mexican, Chinese or even Thai. Indian food is known. But not much else is known other than that word that makes one curious about so many other things that one thinks of when thinking India.

[Suvir Saran]

Is Tabla adapting or adjusting?

Tabla is not adapting at all. Tabla is the beginning of a new food trend that could share with diners a new cuisine that is very much one that in a few years or a decade, will be given a weighty title that makes it a winning classic of its times and history.

There is little Indian about it other than the ethnicity of its chef. In fact, when they firs opened, those that bashed it did so only for that reason. Now, with the bread bar, they have simply planted recipes from India into their repertoire in that section that are Indian and boldly so. There are some recipes that adjust and adapt, but what inspired some reviewers to go review the Bread Bar was the bold and seemingly transparent Indian authentic flavors to its food.

I have been a champion of Tabla and will always remain so. But Tabla is not Indian in my book. Tabla speaks of a world that will slowly need many other such restaurants serving food that evokes of a time where the world sees shrinking and fuzzy boundaries.

Table is still an infant in what it will become if it can last and evolve. Tabla is the next logical step for fusion foods. While Indian food can learn little from Tabla, it is my hope that Indian restaurant owners can learn from Tabla that it is possible to give great service, in a charming setting, at a decent price-point and still serve something Indian.

Table excites me not for its food, but for what it presents us as an opportunity. It would be silly to copy Tabla or give it much credit just yet, or credit more than what it has received already. Tabla is what the future needs more of. But Tabla is hardly anything Indian food needs to be.

Indian food in the US or other foreign lands needs to find a setting where it can survive, breathe and co-habitate without seeming lost and foreign. Tabla in some small ways makes that reality seem plausible.

Now, we need restaurateurs from India that can have some vision and think outside of the box.

[Suvir Saran]

7) Is there something wrong with a chef taking a dish from another culture and selling it in America (or wherever) for whatever price she can get?  Was my beef wellington "wrong" because I really thought it was invented by Napoleon's chef?  Was my ceasar salad "improper" because I thought it was loved by Julius?  Am incapable of making a decent Rogan Josh because I don't understand how the Moghuls conquered Northern India?  I'm a decent non-trained cook, but I didn't learn anything from my parents.

My friends tell me that my thai food is as good as they get in a restaurant.  I think they're nuts.

I've peered over the wall at lots of restaurant kitchens.  I don't see much going on there but the rapid spooning and squirting of stuff into a wok.  I can't imagine that I loved the chicken with broccoli from Charlie Mom because the "chef" could trace his lineage back to [fill in some ancient Chinese chef here.]

While we may think we have learned nothing from our parents, it is not easy to have lived with them and not been even just remotely influenced by our surroundings.

If one honestly feels one has learnt nothing from ones parents, that person is a unique social phenomenon. Maybe one that needs to be cloned. For that person that does not assimilate and learn from their surroundings, poses new hope for a world that has such great anger and misery still in its midst for the memories even generations after a certain period of history has happened. Maybe that person is better than the rest of the human species. A great mind that is uniquely very different from all others. For that one mind is truly independent.

But for the most part, we all learn a lot from our parents, our neighbors, friends, peer, teacher, friends, schools, spouses and every other person that we ever meet. While we may never take any formal training from any particular person, the imprint of every occurrence of our lives is left in us. Often coming out when we least expect it.

Just in the same way, we too can make food by simply association of culture and history. My sister was never the kind of foodie I was even at the age of 6. But she too has memories that make her a far greater cook even at her worst than most foreign students studying and cooking Indian food. She has in her brain reflections of conversations; images that have been in her head from even just having entered the kitchen every day, several times a day even to just get a drink of water. But in those few seconds, her mind picked images of chefs grinding, roasting, cleaning and separating spices and or vegetables and meats. These memories will come alive like conversations and other bits of history when we least expect them.

While I make several non-Indian dishes better than what many restaurants serve of these same dishes, I have never felt comfortable thinking I can create these better than those that make the same dish with the added benefit of some association with it. The subtle ways in which Steven Klc or Wignding could manipulate simple pastries would never even cross my sensibilities. And similarly, the ways in which I can manipulate even the worst stocked pantries to create an Authentic Indian meal, will even at its worst be far superior to any Indian food any non-Indian could create for me from the same ingredients. For my longer association and richer cultural association will present my mind with far greater subtle ways in which I can achieve a result a non-Indian could never even dream of.

[Jaymes]

(But I find it hard to believe that any Texan would believe that anyone from Czechoslovakia belongs in Texas.  Just kidding.)

Well, we may have our faults, but we are a friendly bunch. And my Czech friends do fit right in. They are very popular and are invited everywhere.

But as for their being "Texans," that was not so much my observation as theirs.

They spent two weeks skiing in Taos a while back. My friend said she hated it there. The place was, she said, full of snobs: "Nobody smile on me, nobody laugh on me. Everybody have rich clothes. We try to talk and be friends, but no one wish."

"But then," she continued, "we fly to home and get to Dallas airport. Everyone smile on me, everyone laugh on me and is friends. I say Frank, 'We are really home at last.' I say you, Jaymes, we are yust Texans."

[Bux]

Well at least they got the accent down pat. Sshhh, I won't tell them if you don't.

[John Whiting]

Th argument raging everwhere over fusion/confusion conceals a simple fact known to food historians: namely, that the modern fusion movement is merely a commercialized and time-accelerated variant on what has been going on throughout human history. Or as Sri Owen, Indonesian author of _The Rice Book_ says, throughout Asia, "fusion" food is the only kind there is:

Everywhere in Asia, foodways are becoming less traditional, and the dishes less 'authentic'. Ingredients no longer have to be local or seasonal. Middle-class, well-to-do, well-travelled Asians are familiar with western food and are becoming more eclectic in their tastes and cooking – they adopt the bits that they like from the west, reject what they don't like. Migrants have taken Asian food to Australia, where they grow Asian vegetables and fruit and open Asian restaurants – especially the Thais and Vietnamese. Indonesians aren't very good at restaurants, but I won't go into that now. Asians are always nostalgic for the food they had at home – and some are proud of their cuisines just as they are of their cultures generally. Most of them work hard to preserve their favourite cooking. But they're not. going to complain that – for example – a Thai dish cooked with olive oil isn't authentic. What matters is the final result, which should taste recognisably Thai. I've said in several of my books that I'm no longer interested in being authentic; I'm a purist and an eclectic, and I take what is good from wherever I find it.

(privately circulated paper, quoted with the author's permission)

[Stone]

Suvir,

Hopefully this will make some sense. I'm interested in your comment that Jaffrey, Sahni, etc. are cooks not chefs. I'm also curious what you would suggest as good examples of Indian cooking, by which I mean the difference between something made by a cook and by a chef.

For example, my understanding of Indian food consists of dishes like Vindaloo, Do Piaza, Rogan Josh, Chicken Tikka Masala, Saag Paneer, Malai Kofta, etc. These are found in almost every Indian restaurant I've been to in America, and most restaurants I went to in Northern India and Nepal.

In America there's a huge difference between what most people eat at home and in the average restaurant and what they get in the high-end places often discussed in this forum. And I've often heard the saying that, for example, few Chinese people in China eat anything similar to what we eat in Chinese restaurants.

So on one hand, I read JW's post as saying that an understanding of Indian cooking comes from growing up with it in the home. On the other hand, it seems like you suggested that an Indian chef makes food differently than an Indian cook, who learned by copying Mom and Grandmother.

Are you saying that Chefs make the food better, or is there a whole other arena of Indian cooking that I'm missing? I recall going to some higher end restaurants in Delhi (at least I thought they were higher end, but I was only 17 and 22 at the times), and the dishes were pretty much the same, although the meats were better quality, the garnishes were fancier and the flavors better adjusted. When I've been to fancier Indian restaurants in America, I felt that where the offerings differed from the dishes with which I was familiar, they were doing fusion.

On the other hand, in America I find that the higher end restaurants are doing more than cooking the same dishes better, they are cooking different, more complex dishes.

Is there a whole level of Indian food that I have not experienced? Can you describe the types of dishes that you would expect an Indian "chef" to make?

[Suvir Saran]

You do not need to know what was going on in Vienna to play Mozart, but tell me a name of even one Indian chef?  And no, Madhur Jaffrey, Julie Sahni and Suvir Saran are not chefs.  We are more like food and cultural ambassadors of India.  If you can give me one name, of a well known Indian chef, maybe you know more than most people living here.  So, unless you know of that answer quite immediately, there is a gap between that culture and what you feel you know of it.  Certainly it is not something you cannot fill, but for that, you have to make an effort.  ANd that effort takes a certain effort that has to be grounded in real desire to learn.

I post again what I wrote in reference to Madhur, Julie and myself. I never called them chefs or cooks. Please read again to see the point I made.

[Suvir Saran]

On the other hand, in America I find that the higher end restaurants are doing more than cooking the same dishes better, they are cooking different, more complex dishes.

That is exactly what I said we need in terms of finding acceptance for fusion dishes. New does not make complex and tasty. Fusion does not always have to be complex and good.

But with Tabla behind us and in existence, that is what I said.. we need to now find new restaurants come up that share a cuisine that is different and complex and wonderful and has certainly elements borrowed from many cultures or even just a couple.

But we are yet to see that successfully rendered in the realm of even remote Indian cooking. The food has thus far been only Indian or French. A mediocre version of fusio thus far of the two. What has been good at these restaurants have been basic dishes from each culture that have been left pretty much the same albeit some very minute almost inconsequential addition or change.

I too am hoping that the "American cooking different, more complex dishes" can be translated into the world of America trying to cook Indian food. Thus far most tries at cooking anything remotely Indian has been a pathetic attempt at cooking something with spices. But cooking with spices alone does not make food Indian. Even Indian pets eat food cooked with spices. But what they eat is called pet food and not food eaten by humans interested in very subtle, complex and very spectacular dishes.

That learning of Indian food is not prevalent in the US at least to my knowledge. There are chefs here that are working and do so with little if any attention. But when they and the market are ready, I am sure we will see some of the American magic. But thus far, there has been little if any better Indian food here. Leave alone more complex.

We are yet to discover in the US basic Indian dishes. The dishes you mentioned as having eaten in India are dishes that are tired old Indian dishes. Most Indian restaurants thriving around cosmopolitan cities would have left them out of their menus. Like in the US and several other countries, Indians too are looking for newer and more complex or at time much simpler dishes.

The dishes you mention are the mainstream of what is found in restaurants, and far from what is eaten in homes or even in finer social settings.

When I was in Bombay a couple of months ago, the most amazing banquet I ate at was in the poolside garden of a friends country estate in Alibagh. A home made with several million US dollars in a remote area in Maharashtra, this was a home that could have been in the Hamptons and be the prize of the town. But here we were in Alibagh, having taken the ferry from Bombay, we took a beautiful road trip to the home.

The swimming pool had mosaic tiles and a bar situated in the pool itself with stools and standing area carved inbetween the pool. The bar was served through a tunnel so that the bar could be without pool water and yet those enjoying it and the goodies coming out of it could be still immersed in water if they chose.

Grilled baby corn and eggplant tikkas were being served for my vegetarian father. Amazing array of local seafood for those that enjoyed it was available.

VIndaloo, Rogan Josh, Chicken Tikka Masala, Saag Paneer, Do Piaza and Malai Kofta were absent. We had local curries and other exciting dishes that were better versions of home recipes from yesteryears.

If you scan through the Indian forum, you will find many such dishes mentioned. We have discovered home foods on this forum several times.

What we have yet to find in the US is even a single restaurant that has been able to translate the wonders of Indian cooking in any decent fashion.

We have a few winners, but these are winners for we have no options. In India they say two sayings that Indian friends who visit NYC always use for this food we call Indian food in the US.

1) Bandar kyaa jaane adrak ka swaad

2) Andho mein kaana raja

The first loosely translates as: how would a monkey understand the subtlety and flavor of ginger.

The second translates as: amongst the visually impaired (blind) the person with one eye is emperor.

These are bad stereotypical generalizations, but this is how most Indians describe foods they eat in the US.

I am like you hoping that restaurant owners can elevate their thinking and realize that there is a pool of chefs that exist in India and also in the US, these are chefs that care to share a real cuisine with people that is contemporary and yet classic. Not just fluff and marketing trivia, but steeped in tradition and also experimentation... and these chefs need homes where they can continue to create and share and amaze. But it has not happened yet.

Look at the cooking section under Rose Petals... you will find a great example of what a chef with respect for cuisine, cultures and traditions can create when respecting each of those elements that must interact successfully to make any cuisine both palatable and of the moment. You will find a small hint of what the coming decades will witness.

I only hope that I am still able to enjoy the tastes and wonders of cuisine when that happens. And also that these chefs are still practicing this wonderful art of theirs as they do so now.

We will always have great craftsmen, unfortunately, we have few people in our midst that today can sift through the trivial and enjoy that which is grounded in beauty of many kinds. The trivial seems to obsess us for what is temporary and able to fit some notion of being a "best something" while the real gets lost in that hype of the trivial.

[Suvir Saran]

DStone,

I will take more time and answer some of your other points when I get back to NYC... but if you need answers sooner, browse around the Indian forum, most answers and other questions that have been asked by others are questioned by people from around the site in this forum.

I will spend more time at the site after Saturday.

[Suvir Saran]

Are you saying that Chefs make the food better, or is there a whole other arena of Indian cooking that I'm missing?  I recall going to some higher end restaurants in Delhi (at least I thought they were higher end, but I was only 17 and 22 at the times), and the dishes were pretty much the same, although the meats were better quality, the garnishes were fancier and the flavors better adjusted.  When I've been to fancier Indian restaurants in America, I felt that where the offerings differed from the dishes with which I was familiar, they were doing fusion.

You have not even come close to making a scratch into understanding even just the cuisine of one state of India by mentioning the dishes you have eaten and enjoyed and found in most restaurants.

Dstone, I travel across India learning about food and I am yet to make a pronouncement that I feel I have understood even one city or states food. I am very confident that I have largely understood the food of my community, but again, every time I speak with new members of my community, I discover new dishes, variations and traditional recipes that belonged to one nuclear family and were part of an ancient tradition of our family but were somehow kept in one household. So, Indian food as Simon Majumdar rightly observed, is one of the most ancient cuisines and yet the most modern. It is always changing and one is always discovering.

You are talking a Billion plus people. With many social, religious and cultural beliefs that are different from the other. How can one expect there to be anything but a very VAST ARENA with amazing and mind boggling diversity. It would be foolish to expect anything. We have had in India no dictatorship that could have stifled natural growth. So with time and freedom, we have only evolved even more. You are not alone; I stand by you and with millions of others in not having succeeded in discovering even a very small part of Indian cuisine yet.

IN fact if one were to take the menus of all Indian restaurants across the US, you would come with nothing more than a 100 recipes that are mostly similar and form nothing more than a ripple in the ocean of recipes and dishes one would find in India.

Dosas and Idlis and Vada are South Indian but again, these are the very basic dishes that are not even considered food really. They are snacks or breakfast foods to the people who these dishes are borrowed from.

Similarly the Chaats that we now find in certain restaurants form a very small part of what is available back home and in what great rendering of those recipes. But we get all excited eating them for we have no other option yet.

The Rogan Josh, Saag Paneer, Malai Kofta, Chicken Tikka Masala and Vindaloo are a few of the many million dishes one could supplant here and still only make a dent.

So yes, the arena is HUGE and the restaurants in India have only now begun to explore dishes different from those you mention. When were you in India? What restaurants did you go to? What cities?

What fancy Indian restaurants do you frequent? What dishes do you consider their fusion dishes?

Maybe you want to start a thread on Indian fusion restaurant dishes. It could be a place for all of us to discover these dishes and restaurants.