Learning About Rhones

[Steve Plotnicki]

Beachfan - I tasted them when I was there in February. They are similar to the 1998 vintage in style though not as ripe and fat. I didn't buy many of them since I've stocked up on '98's. There is a pretty fair debate among collectors as to what the best vintage of 1998-2000 is and it is split between proponents of '98 and proponents of '99. 1999 is a "classic" vintage that doesn't have the flair '98 or '00 has. The wines are well balanced. But I'm in the '98 camp as I think the ripeness and fullness of the wines makes them special. Sort of like the 1990 vintage which I find to be the best vintage over the last 20 years.

[mogsob]

My 2 cents:

CHATEAUNEUF-DU-PAPE

Lucien Barrot

Domaine Henri Bonneau

Chateau Beaucastel

Domaine de Beaurenard

Les Cailloux

Chapoutier

Domaine Charvin

Clos des Papes

Domaine Clos du Caillou

Domaine du Galet des Papes

Domaine Grand Veneur

Domaine de la Janasse

Clos du Mont Olivet

Domaine de la Mordorée

Chateau la Nerthe

Domaine du Pegau

Chateau Rayas

Raymond Usseglio

Le Vieux Donjon

Domaine du Vieux Telegraphe

CORNAS

Clape

Noel Verset

Alain Voge

COTE ROTIE

Chapoutier

Mathilde et Yves Gangloff

Guigal

HERMITAGE

Chapoutier

JL Chave

Delas

Jaboulet

Marc Sorrel

[Ron Johnson]

A novice question...  how does the new world style of Rhone wines compare with the old world style with regards to taste?  Is one more flavorful than the other?  Or are there other characteristics that separate them?

Great question. As I said before Guigal and Chapoutier do not make bad wines. They just make wines that could easily be mistaken as a california syrah or a super tuscan. In other words they are very new world in style. Lots of new world winemaking styles and liberal use of new oak impart a more "Parkerized" flavor to the wine. (As in wine critic Robert Parker).

What is amazing about a producer like Michel Ogier and his son Stephane, is that they make a wine that could come from nowhere else but Cote Rotie.

When most people think of wine that is mostly Syrah if not 100% they think of a huge alcoholic tannic purple monster, such as what comes from Australia, Tuscany, or California. However, a Cote Rotie is a restrained almost delicate wine, well-balanced with a nose of violets and smoked bacon or pork. It is one of the most distinctive wines in the world. Guigal's Cote Rotie, while good, and technically correct, is made in huge volume with a noted woodiness from the exposure to new oak, it is more highly extracted, darker and more dense. It has lost its identity. The same is true with Chapoutier in Hermitage. If you want the truest expression of Hermitage you have to go with Chave, J.L. not Bernard.

I know people like Beachfan think that I am dead wrong on this, and it took me a long time to realize what the difference was. I used to hate wine-geeks who criticized the California Cab oak/fruit bombs that I cherished and waxed poetic about "old world" delicacies from the northern rhone, Montalcino, or Loire Valley. Only after doing lots of side by side tasting, blind tasting, learning about the regions and the winemakers, was I slowly able to appreciate what was being said.

I still appreciate new world style wines, and I can get down with a killer super tuscan any time, but when one asks for recommendations on a Rhone wine, I think that I should recommend a producer who makes a wine indicative of the region. The single best example of this the Ogier family in Cote Rotie.

Hope that explains it somewhat.

[Steve Plotnicki]

I started to write a long treatise on this and then my computer crashed. Blotto.

Whomever asked the question about old world vs new world, while I'm no expert on the topic in terms of wine making technique, I can point to a few techniques used by the winemakers. The first issue is a matter of ripeness. New World wines tend to be riper and as such sweeter. So they let the grapes hang on the vines longer. For example, a few years back I was in the Napa Valley at the end of October and we visited Pride Vineyards. Aside from their Merlot which was already picked, the other grapes were still on vine. We were able to walk through the vineyards and eat them off the vines and they were so sweet and perfume like they tasted like port. There isn't a traditional winemaker who wouldn't have picked those grapes at least a month earlier. One of the attributes that wines pick up from being extremely ripe is the alcohol content is high. High sugar means high alcohol level.

A second issue is once they crush the grapes, how long they let the wine lie on the musts. For those who don't know, the skins of the grapes after they are crushed are called musts and the period of time when the grapes are lying on the musts is termed "extraction." If you can see where this is going, New World or internationally styled wines are riper, more alcoholic and most importantly, much more extracted than traditionally styled wines because they are left to extract wine from the skins for a longer period of time (maybe some expert can jump in and be more specific.) Now while this doesn't necessarilly sound very controversial here is where the argument between the camps sets in and we will demonstrate it amongs wines in the Rhone region to make it be on topic.

What makes a Cote Rotie a Cote Rotie, or a Chateaneuf a Chateauneuf, is that the trace substances that develop in the wines from those two regions are unique and discreet to the regions. For example, the entire area of Cote Rotie is 497 acres. It's really just a single steep hill that stretches from one end of the town of Ampuis to the other and it spans a few kilometers to the west of the town once you reach the crest of the hill. It's very steep, hence it's name. Cote Rotie translates to "Roasted Slope" and in fact the hill faces the Rhone river (I would say it's set back about 1/4-1/2 of a mile and gets direct and intense sun. The unusual micro-climate of the intense sunlight offsets that the temperatures would otherwise be too cool to grow grapes as mature as the ones you get on that hill.

The "vineyard" is in reality numeous different vineyards strung together. I'm not sure how many there are but there are at least 30 vineyards that are contiguous. Each vineyard has it's own unusual charcteristics and they have been marked off accordingly. Some of the vineyards make intensely fruity wine. Some make a bottle full of minerals. Some might make wines that are a deep red color and some might be pale. Most bottles of Cote Rotie are a blend of various vineyards. Each winemaker might own small pieces of various vineyards because he wants to blend them into what would be a house style. But in general when we speak about the French codifying every acre of agricultural land in their country, this is what we mean. They painstakingly and scientifically did testing on parcels of land and segregated them by what type of trace substance occurs when grapes are grown on the location.

The entire 497 acres has been split into two parts. The Cote de Brune and the Cote Blonde. So for those of you who buy and drink Guigal Cote Rotie Cote Brune et Cote Blond, you now know that it's a blend of grapes that come from both sides of the vineyard. The Cote Blonde is considered the feminine side and the Brune more rustic. Other growers like Rene Rostaing bottle a Cote Blonde which means the grapes come from just that side. And then certain growers might make their wine from a single location. The most famous vineyards are the three bottlings that Guigal makes which are "La Landonne," La Mouline," and "La Turque." Those are known as single vineyard wines because the grapes used are exclusively from those vineyards. But most bottlings come from a variety of vineyards and are blended by the growers. In addition, it is legal for the growers to blend in up to 5% of the white wine viognier in their Cote Rotie. Some do it and some don't. But it's done to give the wine a perfumed scent and a touch of elegance.

So taking this back to the original question of Old World vs New World/International style, the complaint against New World/International style is that the various manipulations that the winemakers put those wines through (including what I described above as well as some other winemaking techniques others raised earlier and ones that haven't been mentioned yet,) removes or diminishes the trace substances that the particular vineyards are noted for. Say for example that two growers harvested grapes from a vineyard whose characteristic was that the wines had a strong mineral component. Well what would happen with the new world/international winemaker is that the manipulations would probably eliminate that unique characteristic from the wine. Where the old world/traditional style winemaker would do everything possible to highlight that characteristic.

So when you hear any of us say that wines "taste of their terroir," this is what we mean. I believe it's the wines from the Lancemont vineyard in Cote Rotie that taste of bacon fat when they age and they are highly prized as a result. But it's entirely possible that a winemaker who practices New World technique would eliminate that feature of the wines through gross manipulations in the winemaking process. So this "internationalization" of wine is short for saying, making wines taste the same regardless of where they come from. And traditionalists who are good tasters can taste where wines come from and they do not want to see the nuances be drowned out because the demand of the international wine market is driven by people who are newer to wine, and are seeking a more consistant experience.

Phew, that was hard to get out. I hope that made sense and it's probably a good starting point to work our way down the Rhone River (since Cote Rotie is the Northermost appelation considered a Rhone wine) and to go through each appelation in detail. Maybe somebody can add to what I've posted (or correct any innacuracies.) Maybe if a few tough questions are lobbed out I will try and get my friend Stephane Ogier to post a few answers. And maybe on the French board we can start an analogous thread about touring the Rhone and where to stay and where to eat and link it to this one. Because it's a very easy place to get to, the town of Ampuis being only a 20 minute car ride south of Lyon. It's literally in the suburbs of Lyon.

[Ron Johnson]

Well put Plotnicki.

[Wilfrid]

I appreciate the effort going into this thread. I don't mean to bring it down to earth with a thump, but a couple of banal questions are buzzing in my head. How ready are the 1998 and 200 vintages for drinking? If I want to find something that is ready for drinking, and available in New York, what should I look out for?

Please and thank you.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Wilfrid - Neither are ready. The vintages that are drinking well are 1989 and 1990 except for the special cuvees which are going to need another 5 years or so. Some earlier vintages are drinking well like 1985. But many of the wines are past their prime.

[LaNiña]

This is fantastic. Thank you all so much.

[Brad S]

Steve, What an excellent report!!!

Thank you all for sharing your vast knowelage of wine.

I thought it fruitful (pun intended) to talk also about the climates and the Rhone river herself.

Along with the Rhine,Danude,Loire,Douro,garonne,and Moselle,the Rhone is one of the most important wine rivers in the world.Even in it's uppermost reaches in Valais,in Switzerland,there is extensive wine industry with great products.In the main part of the French section,from Lyon,the broad river valley runs almost dead straight southwards for almost 125 miles,with the foothills of the alps on one side and the massif central on the other side.For almost the entire stretch,the valley is covered with vineyards and large fields of vines,which between Vienne in the north and Avignon in the south constitutes one of the most varied wine growing regiens in the country,Around 124.000acres are planted to the vines in six departments and 163 localities,and the region boasts the most produced red wine appelation(cotes-du-rhone rouge)in France.The Rhone in a larger sense also includes a series of fringe areas such as Diois,the cotes du Ventoux,the coteaux du tricaction,the Costiers du gard and the Muscat de lunal region,with the last two names constituting a transition to the Langeudoc-Roussilon.The diversity of the wines is due primaraly to it's geographical constilation.In the northen part of the Rhone valley,where vines are planted mainly on the terraces of steep granite slopes,a markedly cooler continatal climate prevails than in the southren part with it's broad alluvial and sandy plains,where it can be very hot in the summer and remains mild in the winter.These climate differences are also the reason the northern sites produce single varity wines,as is the case in most northern wine growing regions of Europe,while in the south Cuvees prdominate

The greatest resourse of the region is it's white and red grape varities which,although largly ignored,especcialy in France itself-are amoung the best in the world and have been long produced great wines outside there region of origin.The pride and joy id the blue Syrah,which-as mentioned before me has become a sort of designer grape.As far back as the Romans,the dark grapes with there small berries were known to have special quality.In the best conditions for ripeing,the dark and at the same time fruity,tannin rich wines can prove very complex and extremly ageble,and theyaccourd with the image of firm and yet harmonious wines such as are popular with consumers.Pure syrah wines are produced under the cote-rotie,Hermitage,Saint Joseph,or Croze-Hermitage appelations of the northern rhone,but they are being planted more and more often in the vineyards of the south as well.

This thread has really been a wonderful learning experance,thank you all for your outstanding imformation

[MartyL]

How ready are the 1998 and 2000 vintages for drinking? If I want to find something that is ready for drinking, and available in New York, what should I look out for?

Steve is right that those vintages are not "ready" in the sense of showing secondary complexity like the older vintages he mentions, but that doesn't mean some of these wines can't be enjoyed now with significant pleasure as a result of their ripe fruit. In particular, I'd recommend 2 98s: Chateau Fortia and Clos Mont Olivet. Check with Chambers St. Wines downtown or Columbus Circle Wines & Liquors for availability, or do a search on www.winesearcher.com.

[Blue Heron]

A follow up question regarding new world vs. old world style....

Does anyone know roughly what percent of Rhone wine is produced in the new style vs. old style? Also, regarding world markets for wine from this region, does one style sell to consumers in a higher percentage than the other? Due to it's nuances of the terroir, and perhaps some consumers not being able to appreciate the subtleties of the old world style, or perhaps preferring the more extracted type flavor, is there any concern that the old world style could decline, or become less profitable in a financial sense of running a winery? Hopefully the old world market is very profitable, and this thought I've had is not an issue? Both styles live in harmony?

[Steve Plotnicki]

MartyL is correct about Clos Mont Olivet. Their style of Chateauneuf-du-Pape contains a high percentage of ripe grenache and as such is always one of the easier wines to drink. So for example, the 1990 Clo Mont Olivet drinks beautifully now but the 1990 Les Cailloux is till tight as a drum and could use 3-5 more years of bottle age.

[Wilfrid]

Okey-dokey. 1989 and 1990, and there's plenty of advice here on producers. Roughly what should I be prepared to pay for something distinctive?

[LaNiña]

Okey-dokey.  1989 and 1990, and there's plenty of advice here on producers.  Roughly what should I be prepared to pay for something distinctive?

Wilfrid, check out the Union Square Wines site:

http://www.wineaccess.com/store/unionsquarewines

You can search by price, type, year, everything.

[Wilfrid]

Okey-dokey.  1989 and 1990, and there's plenty of advice here on producers.  Roughly what should I be prepared to pay for something distinctive?

Wilfrid, check out the Union Square Wines site:

http://www.wineaccess.com/store/unionsquarewines

You can search by price, type, year, everything.

Thanks Nina, but - as I expected - not listing Rhones with any great bottle age. Maybe a subject for a broader thread, but this is often the dilemma for someone who hasn't cellared wine from a particular region: you either find a restaurant which has done so, and pay the mark-up, or you drink the younger stuff.

I will, of course, double check with my cellarman to see if we have laid down any Rhones from 1989 or 1990. You never know.

[LaNiña]

I'll check the Tanzer site, too. With my new subscription

[Steve Plotnicki]

Wilfrid - I would think that if you were to find 1990 Clos Mont Olivet for sale somewhere it would cost around $65 a bottle. The 1989 somewhat less. Probably $50-$65. The 1998 vintage sold for about $25 on release. But if you were a good shopper (like moi) you could have found it in Europe for $16.50. You should try Winesearcher.com and load it in and see what happens. Mind you Clos Mont Olivet makes a luxury cuvee called "Cuvee Papate." The 1990 Cuvee Papete sells for $100-$150 a bottle. Personally I think the wine is a stinker though a lot of people like it. But I still see the 1998 Papete around for anywhere from $38-$75 a bottle (I know that's a big variance) and I think that wine is well worth laying away and will be an absolute gem around 2012-2015.

[Beachfan]

I know people like Beachfan think that I am dead wrong on this, and it took me a long time to realize what the difference was.

Not at all, when the comments are on style and preference. I agree that some people like one style much, much better, and vice versa. Also, many start out liking New World wines, and then move away from them.

It just isn't a question of better in an absolute sense.

I also agree that many winemakers have moved to a New World style, and Parker is an advocate of that. But he gave a perfect score to Ogiers 1999 Belle Helene, so I don't think it's so black and white.

[Lesley C]

On my recent trip to the Southern Rhone, we tasted 1998, 1999, 2000 and a few 2001. It’s generally considered that 1998 and 2000 were good in the south and 1999 was better in the north. The 2000s were consistently the most complex and satisfying of the bunch. Unlike Steve P., I have no trouble drinking such young wines. The few times I tasted the older vintages (especially outside the crus), I was often disappointed – little of the power I’ve come to expect or enjoy in Rhone reds. Food-wise every wine maker said the same thing, grilled meat, civet de lièvre, steak de taureau (a local specialty) and roasted wild boar. I also adore these wines with cheeses such as Brie de Meaux and Camembert.

A few favourites (at all price points):

Louis Bernard:

Domaine des Carbonnieres Gigondas 2001 (superior to the 2000)

Domaines des Muretins Lirac 2000 (better than 1999)

And in the Grande Reserve the 2000 Cotes-du-Rhone and 1998 C-d-R Villages

Gramenon: Les Hauts de Gramenon Village Vinsobres 2000, La Mémé 2000 and A.Pascal S. 1998 (100% Grenache).

Domaine de la Présidente: Galify Rouge Vielles Vignes 1999. Velours Rouge (90% syrah; amazing cassis flavour) Cotes du Rhone Rouge 1999, and Un Dimanche d’Octobre en Famille Cotes du Rhone Blanc 1997.

Domaine de Cabasse: Cuvée de la Casa Bassa Séguret Cotes du Rhone Village 2000 (wonderful with lamb) and Gigondas 2000.

Beaucastel: Coudoulet de Beaucastel 2000 white, Lirac 1997, Beaucastel 1983, 1990 and 2000, Hommage a Jacques Perrin 1998 (out of this world!).

Also highly recommended: Domaine de Soumade, Fleur de Confiance 1999 C-d-R Villages Rasteau, Le Sang des Cailloux Vacqueras 1997, Roger Sabons Chateauneuf-du-Pape white 2001.

Just a few highlights from this terrific region. If you’re interested in trying the Cotes-du-Rhone Villages, I’d suggest Rasteau and Vinsobres. If we start a thread on the France board, I can recommend a few terrific places to stay and eat in the region.

[Ron Johnson]

Wilfrid,

I think that most good Rhones may be consumed within 2 years of the vintage or after 10 years. It is in between this time that they close down. When I was there last, Barge was making fun of how americans are so serious about properly aging their wine.

Also, I have had several bottles of the '95 Jasmin Cote Rotie and found it to be drinking beautifully. To my taste, Jasmin is made in a softer style and is ready to drink sooner.

[Wilfrid]

Steve, I readily found the 1990 Cuvee le Papate in an auction for $70. But I think the difficulty for someone who hasn't collected and laid down, is not so much the prices but sheer availability. The prices seem to me in line with what I might pay for 1989/1990 Premier Cru burgundies, which can still be bought over the counter. I'll have to look around for some of these Rhones.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Heron - Well you have asked all the right questions. Fortunately French wines are the least affected by the internationalization of wine. Although that's a debatable point as well but too esoteric for this conversation. But since New World wines are so much more accessable to winedrinkers, and by that I mean ripe, fuity, sweet, big and often ready to drink on release, they are sold for prices that are often higher than French wines that have been made for decades. Take syrahs made in the Central Coast of California. The better growers like Ojai can get $60 a bottle for their top wines. But there are better producers in the Rhone who make Crozes-Hermitage (syrah) that sell for $22.

The French growers are starting to resent this disparity in wine pricing. A number of years ago one of the preeminant growers in Chateauneuf who sells his wines wholesale to his U.S. importer for $12, and which end up on the shelves of stores in the U.S. for about $22, told me that a number of the growers there were accutely aware of the disparity and had met with a number of mucky mucks in the industry to see how they could change that. Unfortunately, the obvious answer is to make wines in an International style. So many of them have started to make "special cuvees" for the American market. And of course the traditionalists aren't happy with these highly extracted, alcolohic, overripe non-terroir specific wines.

As to Lesley's points, we visited five of the top estates in Chateauneuf in February and each one preferred their 1999 of the last three vintages. They all think it's the most typical. At this point the 98's are shut down ( a topic worthy of a different thread) and I'm not surprised they didn't show as well as the 2000's. But I was there tasting in March 2000 and the '98's were absolutely glorious then. But I cannot drink the wines when they are this young. The amount of tannin in the wine takes the enamel off my teeth. And while they are fruity, they haven't developed secondary flavors yet.

[Beachfan]

How ready are the 1998 and 2000 vintages for drinking? If I want to find something that is ready for drinking, and available in New York, what should I look out for?

Steve is right that those vintages are not "ready" in the sense of showing secondary complexity like the older vintages he mentions, but that doesn't mean some of these wines can't be enjoyed now with significant pleasure as a result of their ripe fruit. In particular, I'd recommend 2 98s: Chateau Fortia and Clos Mont Olivet. Check with Chambers St. Wines downtown or Columbus Circle Wines & Liquors for availability, or do a search on www.winesearcher.com.

I'll ditto that comment. If ready means, will it improve, most still will. If ready means can I enjoy it now, I think you can enjoy the 98s now, just not as much as you would enjoy them later.

I'm not opening the 98 CdPs from my cellar, but I have a few Cotes du Rhone that I'm not sure are ageworthy and are really delicious now. In fact, if I want only a glass or two of wine, what I tend to open is a recent vintage Cote du Rhone.

Also, a 1998 CdP on a wine list will probably give more pleasure than 96 or 97 (not as good years). I find that 1994 is drinking well now (I like my wines on the younger side).

[tommy]

everything you ever wanted to know...and a whole lot more.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Gee we must be doing good if Tommy offered a compliment.