Looking for some American Chinese recipes

[ash123]

Hi,

This is my first post here.

First of all Ah Leung, I had been visiting your pictorials since long (even when I was not a member) and they were simply fabulous. They capture many subtleties of Chinese cooking that we usually don't get to see in any cookbooks. Thank you for taking the pains to share it with others.

I am great admirer of Chinese cusine. Infact I prefer Chinese to any other cusine in the world, including my own. I have a high BTU stove and most of the normally used ingredients. I have tried many of your recipes and have enjoyed making them. Sometimes they turned out to be great, and other times they were failures because I am not very good with high heat cooking. I am still practising on my high BTU stove.

I have been looking for couple of American Chinese dishes and was hoping you could help me get to the subtleties. They are very very common dishes.

Actually one of the dishes I have tried almost all recipes that I could lay my hands on, but somehow have never been able to capture that restaurant quality (ofcourse the quality differs from restaurant to restaurant, but I am talking about the good ones). The dish is the infamous Gen Tso's chicken or sesame chicken. I know this is not an authentic dish and just a derivative of some cantonese dish, but I still love it.. I think many Chinese dislike this dish. I have tried it in various ways... with dark soy sauce, light soy sauce, sugar, rice wine, rice vinegar, white vinegar, orange concentrate, ketchup, pineapple juice, duck sauce.... but have never got that distinct taste that we get in the restaurant. I think there is something else to it. Would you know about it? Usually the sauce comes in two forms... one is reddish golden color, and the other really dark black (which I think is because of dark soy sauce). I am looking for both versions. I have tried waterchestnut flour, plain flour, or cornstarch with egg/water for chicken coating but somehow could never get that thick crispy coating. The fried chicken pieces also have a wonderful aroma. Can you please give me some tips on this dish?

There is just one other recipe that I am looking for. In one of the restaurants that I eat, they make fabulous chow fun. For some reason their chow fun has a very distinct 'smoky' flavor that I don't find anywhere else. And it is not just because of high heat cooking or dark sesame oil. It has a very very distinct smoky flavor.

Is there any standard ingredient or technique to get that?

I would really appreciate if you could kindly share your experience with me. I have been hunting for these secrets since long but to date have had no success.

Thanks a lot!

Edited April 11, 2006 by ash123 (log)

[annachan]

For some reason their chow fun has a very distinct 'smoky' flavor that I don't find anywhere else. And it is not just because of high heat cooking or dark sesame oil. It has a very very distinct smoky flavor.

Is there any standard ingredient or technique to get that?

←

That's very interesting. As far as I know, the smoky flavor of chow fun is related to "wok-chi", the high heat of the wok. If that isn't it, is there any way you can contact the restaurant and find out how they get the smoky flavor? I'm definitely interested in knowing.

[jo-mel]

Welcome Ash123!

I don't want to jump in before hzrt, but here is one idea:

I've used many different sauces for Gen. Tso's Chicken and the one I have settled on is a glaze type that is not too sweet. The cooking of the sauce to a glazed state makes a darker color than usual.

Caramelized Glaze

6 Tbs. Sugar

3 Tbs. Cider vinegar

5 Tbs. Soy sauce

1 tsp. Cornstarch

Brown some some small dried chilis in oil (watch for fumes that causes coughing) add 4 diced scallions for a minute, then add a minced clove of garlic and 1/4 tsp. minced ginger and cook till aromatic. Add the sauce mix. Heat to a boil, stirring constantly until the foaming subsides and the sauce thickens slightly and turns to a glaze. Add the chicken and toss well to coat.

About the quality of the chicken --- have you tried double frying the pieces? Makes a big difference in the coating quality. I much prefer dark meat chicken in this dish. The texture is more to my liking, and I think was the original choice.

[sheetz]

Welcome, ash! Is it possible for you to take some a few photos of the dishes you're wanting to duplicate. I think it might help.

For the Gen Tso chicken, definitely use dark meat. For the batter you might try using baking powder, self rising flour, or oil and see if that helps.

For the chow fun, I wonder if that smoky flavor is from fermented black beans.

[hzrt8w]

ash123:

Thank you for your kind words and welcome to eGullet!

I enjoy doing these pictorials. I figure that even if only one person can benefit from the post, that would worth the efforts. I enjoy reading comments and other people sharing their techniques. Learning from their experiences I constantly improve my own cooking skills.

For anybody who is interested, I have put together all my pictorials (52+ so far and growing) in a single Windows help file. You may download it to your own computer and read all the pictorials locally. The benefit is you can look up some recipes easily with the search function.

Just follow the downloading instructions on this page:

http://www.freewebs.com/hzrt8w/LeungPictorials.htm

It is also marked on my signature line. This file will be updated periodically.

You asked about some Americanized Chinese recipes. That's a challenge to me. I only cook what I eat. And I don't usually eat Americanized Chinese dishes. No I don't sear strip steaks and dap oyster sauce on top and call it Chinese. I think you knew how I felt on this subject matter from my other postings.

I have made my version of General Tso's Chicken before and have taken pictures. It is a recipe adapted and slightly modified from Maria Lee's (she is one of my idols). I can publish that as a pictorial in a couple of weeks. Though I am not sure if my version is something that you were looking for.

For one thing I don't batter and deep-fry the chicken first. In most of the traditional Chinese chicken dishes, you would not find the chicken nuggets battered and deep-fried... though this practice is so common in the USA (e.g. Pickup Stix, Panda Express, etc.) for Sweet and Sour Chicken, Orange Chicken, General Tso's Chicken, etc.. You may make it that way if you like. The sauce that these restaurants make... use a mix of red and white vinegar and heavy in sugar.

I don't know... the purpose of my posts... my principle is to advocate Chinese food as how Chinese make them. I don't plan to publish a book to band to the popular demand. Not yet anyway. May be a million dollar would change my mind... So I don't sear strip steaks and dap oyster sauce on top in my pictorials. (By the way have I told you how I really felt? )

The second question: Chow fun... smokey flavor. I think what you were describing was generally considered "wok hey" (the illusive "breath of a wok"). It's much easier to achieve when you have a high BTU rating burner, which you said you have. Most of the time, it's all about heating the wok real hot, add cooking oil, add aromatics (onion/garlic/etc) and sauces, and dash in some ShaoHsing cooking wine on a hot wok. Tilt the wok a bit. The alcohol instantly vaporizes, catches on fire... the flame surrounds the wok for maybe a second. The smokey flavor is the residue of the camaralized ShaoHsing wine (minus the alcohol). And no... not from sesame oil. I use sesame oil in a lot of things, but I never drop it on a hot wok. The fume from sesame oil (relatively low boiling point) is actually unpleasant. Always drip sesame oil in room temperature, either on the finished dish or for marination.

Edited April 12, 2006 by hzrt8w (log)

[Toliver]

For some reason their chow fun has a very distinct 'smoky' flavor that I don't find anywhere else. And it is not just because of high heat cooking or dark sesame oil. It has a very very distinct smoky flavor.

Is there any standard ingredient or technique to get that?

←

That's very interesting. As far as I know, the smoky flavor of chow fun is related to "wok-chi", the high heat of the wok. If that isn't it, is there any way you can contact the restaurant and find out how they get the smoky flavor? I'm definitely interested in knowing.

←

There's a local chinese restaurant that makes a great beef chow fun. It is their well-seasoned wok (the "Wok-hey", I believe) that gives the dish its smokey flavor. This isn't something you can duplicate with a spice or sauce. The wok itself develops the flavor over time.

[ash123]

For some reason their chow fun has a very distinct 'smoky' flavor that I don't find anywhere else. And it is not just because of high heat cooking or dark sesame oil. It has a very very distinct smoky flavor.

Is there any standard ingredient or technique to get that?

←

That's very interesting. As far as I know, the smoky flavor of chow fun is related to "wok-chi", the high heat of the wok. If that isn't it, is there any way you can contact the restaurant and find out how they get the smoky flavor? I'm definitely interested in knowing.

←

There's a local chinese restaurant that makes a great beef chow fun. It is their well-seasoned wok (the "Wok-hey", I believe) that gives the dish its smokey flavor. This isn't something you can duplicate with a spice or sauce. The wok itself develops the flavor over time.

←

This was a small joint in Boston Chinatown. I tried asking the chef earlier but he simply smiled. I don't think he would reveal his secrets. But I guess it might be wok-chi, as anna has mentioned. Maybe the next time I will try, I would heat it up really hot. However if it is wok-hey (which I think maybe the case), I would simply have to wait for that. Maybe after cooking a lot, the wok will get the life of its own.

Thanks a lot for your response!

[ash123]

Thank You jo-mel and sheetz!

Jo-mel: Thank you for your recipe. I will certainly try it this way. I used to do something similar but the proportions were different. I think yours are better proportioned. In vinegar I have never used the cider, I usually use the rice vinegar or white vinegar. Is Cider better? I will try it, I think it would taste good. I would also try double frying the pieces. I think it would bring the crunchiness. Thanks a lot!

sheetz: I usually use the dark meat of chicken. I have also tried baking powder in the past and yes, that certainly improves the crunchiness. I haven't tried self-rising flour, I would certainly give that try. For chow-fun I sometimes use black fermented beans, and they do impart some smokiness to it. Thanks for your tips!

[ash123]

Ah Leung, Thank You for your reponse.

I have already downloaded some of your recipes, but it will be easier now to download everything at once. Thanks a lot for it. Your pictorials are really very helpful.

I haven't read any of your other postings on American Chinese Food, but I can very well imagine how offensive American Chinese would be to Chinese people. It cannot even be called Chinese food, I guess. Fortunately I lived in Boston for many years so I had the good opportunity of trying many authentic Chinese dishes. I used to discover hidden treasures in those small Chinatown restaurants where very few people visited. And I also loved the Dimsums and the Bakeries. They were too good! However, as I have lived in America, I have also developed taste for American Chinese. And I must admit I love their crispy deep fried chicken pieces in spicy sweet and sour sauces. But certainly steak pieces doused with oyster sauce are offensive!

For Gen Tso's sauce, I guess there are two or three different types that are usually made in restaurants. If you or any of your Chinese friends happen to know about them, then please let me know, otherwise don't bother. Please continue to posts your regular pictorials, they are very good. Infact I learnt that fire technique (using ShaoHsing rice wine) from your soy chowmein pictorial. It is a really good technique. I am still mastering it though. The last time I made the soy chowmein, it ended up getting a bit bitter. I guess the soysauce got bitter because I might have got delayed in adding noodles. I think I need more practice.

Please continue with your pictorials. Not only me but my other friends too are benefiting from them. They watch me cook, they learn and then try it at their places. (If you have some more recipes on chinese greens then that would be great). So there are certainly more than one person benefiting from your efforts. It is difficult to find such details and techniques in regular cookbooks. So thanks a lot for your effots!

[Dejah]

American Chinese recipes - exactly what we were talking about today. Actually, Canadian Chinese, but I suppose they would be similar. I was introducing a "spatial artist"? to a group of my Aunties. Karen Tam, the artist is recreating a typical Chinese restaurant as an exhibit in our art gallery. Through our website, she made contact and I am trying to coordinate interviews, etc for her. While we were talking with the ladies, we were exchanging our recipes for gwailo Chinese food. Canned beansprouts came up often as well as cabbage for chop suey, sweet and sour spareribs, batter shrimp, etc.

Back to the topic: General Tso's chicken or known as sesame chicken on the prairies.

I used to make pailfuls of "sesame chicken" sauce base with just vinegar, sugar and water. This is boiled then stored in the walk-in cooler. When we need some for an order, the cook would take a large kitchen scoopful, add it to a cold wok, add sesame oil, lots of chili peppers (crushed and whole dried),5 spice powder and bring to a boil. This is thickened with cornstarch slurry and the deep fried chicken pieces would be tossed in to be coated ( leaving some spots dry - without glaze). The dish is liberally coated with toasted sesame seeds just before leaving the kitchen. The chicken is best eaten right away; otherwise, it becomes soggy. I didn't use soya sauce as we preferred the "golden glaze".

The chicken pieces, we used both breast and thigh meat cut into strips. We made a "batter " with egg beaten with a pre-mix of flour, baking powder and cornstarch. The chicken was coated with this batter, then coated with fine cracker meal ( like fine dry breadcrumbs). Then it is deep fried. The sauce is made while the chicken cooks. Our compeetitors used "bits and pieces" of chicken trimmings. We gave customers their money's worth!

[sheetz]

Dejah, how did you guys develop Gweilo Chinese recipes? Was it trial and error or would you exchange recipes with other restauranteurs?

I bet you could make a million bucks publishing a Gweilo Chinese cookbook.

Edited April 13, 2006 by sheetz (log)

[hzrt8w]

[...]I haven't read any of your other postings on American Chinese Food, but I can very well imagine how offensive American Chinese would be to Chinese people. It cannot even be called Chinese food, I guess.

[...]

←

My posts were in this thread:

To be (Chinese), or Not to be (Chinese), That is the question

Sadly the one who published the "sear strip steak and dap some oyster sauce on top" recipe is a renown Chinese cookbook author.

[hzrt8w]

[...]It is a really good technique. I am still mastering it though. The last time I made the soy chowmein, it ended up getting a bit bitter. I guess the soysauce got bitter because I might have got delayed in adding noodles. I think I need more practice.

←

Cooking is all about timing. It takes a lot of practice to make perfect. So... keep cooking! Yes that step needs to be very quick, or else the soy sauce will dry up very quickly (especially that you have a high BTU rating burner).

[...]

Please continue with your pictorials. [...]

It is difficult to find such details and techniques in regular cookbooks. So thanks a lot for your effots!

←

Thanks for your words of encouragement. I try to put down as much thoughts as I can think of in each pictorial. I even tell all how I cheat! Yeah... that's not in regular cookbooks.

[hzrt8w]

[...]It is their well-seasoned wok (the "Wok-hey", I believe) that gives the dish its smokey flavor. This isn't something you can duplicate with a spice or sauce.  The wok itself develops the flavor over time.

←

I agree that the wok develops the flavor over time.

But how does the brand new wok get the "wok hey"? The flavor has to come from somewhere originally.

My belief is it's the accumulation of flames (ShaoHsing wine) burning oil. And perhaps washing the wok without soap would keep the grease on?

[hzrt8w]

[...]I bet you could make a million bucks publishing a Gweilo Chinese cookbook.

←

Hey Dejah Dai Ga Jeah: For a million bucks (or even just half of it) I am willing to bend my back! Would you like to get together and develop some Gweilo Chinese recipes?

Edited April 13, 2006 by hzrt8w (log)

[hzrt8w]

[...]

I have already downloaded some of your recipes, but it will be easier now to download everything at once. Thanks a lot for it. Your pictorials are really very helpful.

[...]

←

I plan to build more to the online help file. I want to incorporate my pictorial shopping guide on Chinese ingredients and pictures of Chinese dishes into the help file in future editions. Check periodically!

[Ben Hong]

Dejah, how did you guys develop Gweilo Chinese recipes? Was it trial and error or would you exchange recipes with other restauranteurs?

I bet you could make a million bucks publishing a Gweilo Chinese cookbook.

←

Well, truth be known a few Chinese restauranteurs have made a million bucks "serving" gweilo food and "not" publishing recipes.

As for "exchanging " recipes, I supposed that during the hard times of the "Exclusion" days, there were some interchange, but taken in context of how the Chinese retaurants got started, ie: mining camps, lumber camps, railway gangs, and the cultural ignorance of the gweilo who populated this demographic subset, I believe that the Chinese camp cooks essentially threw what little supplies they had together and called it any name they wanted. In recent years, by my standards around 40 years ago, fancy names like gu loh yuk, Gen. Tso, kung pao, etc. crept into the Chinese menu lexicon to match the increasingly sophistication and the "uptown" aspects of the North American Chinese restaurants. Also to match the increasing "sophistication" of the clientele of that era. However, nowadays there are more and more people, gweilo, who have really and truly embraced Chinese cuisine as legitimate and are demanding authenticity in style and ingredients. THANK GAWD.

[Dejah]

Dejah, how did you guys develop Gweilo Chinese recipes? Was it trial and error or would you exchange recipes with other restauranteurs?I bet you could make a million bucks publishing a Gweilo Chinese cookbook.

←

Well, truth be known a few Chinese restauranteurs have made a million bucks "serving" gweilo food and "not" publishing recipes.

←

Good response, Ben Sook!

I don't need to write a gweilo cookbook; they are everywhere but under the guise of "authentic". As Ben said, they have names like General Tso, etc makes them sound more authentic. Also, as Ah Leung said, batter is not the norm in most Chinese homes, so those would be considered gweilo recipes.

We did exchange recipes with other immigrant restauranteurs, most of whom were from our village and surrounding area. It's not so much exchange as passing on new ideas. I know my brother in Seattle used to tell us different recipes and we'd use them in our restaurant.

I suppose most of the recipes were based on something similar to what we ate in China, but using ingredients available to us at that time. Now, of course, supermarkets carry everything you'd need to cook real Chinese food.

Because people were used to eating battered fish, etc, I think that's why we battered shrimp, lemon chicken. When new food look like what we are used to, even timid people are more willing to try.

A customer asking for a substitution in a dish often resulted in a new item. For example, the chop suey snack (chop suey on a burger bun) became a Saturday night special when a customer asked for bread instead of rice. These were the perfect size for the ladies as they waited for their men to come out of the "men only" pubs in the 50s and 60s. This was a typical scene from a prairie town on a Saturday night...another story.

[jo-mel]

Dejah -- You wrote:

"A customer asking for a substitution in a dish often resulted in a new item. For example, the chop suey snack (chop suey on a burger bun) became a Saturday night special when a customer asked for bread instead of rice. These were the perfect size for the ladies as they waited for their men to come out of the "men only" pubs in the 50s and 60s. This was a typical scene from a prairie town on a Saturday night...another story

I'mn not even going to tell my DH about that combo ----- he will try it! And he will LOVE it!

AAAARRRGGGHHHHH! See what I have to put up with??!! LOL!

[sheetz]

Chop Suey sloppy joes. I love it!!! lol

[Toliver]

[...]It is their well-seasoned wok (the "Wok-hey", I believe) that gives the dish its smokey flavor. This isn't something you can duplicate with a spice or sauce.  The wok itself develops the flavor over time.

←

I agree that the wok develops the flavor over time.

But how does the brand new wok get the "wok hey"? The flavor has to come from somewhere originally.

My belief is it's the accumulation of flames (ShaoHsing wine) burning oil. And perhaps washing the wok without soap would keep the grease on?

←

Yes, exactly. The wok-hey comes from continuously cooking in it overtime. It's a build-up of something...I have no idea what it is. But you can see it in the wok.

As for the washing without soap, that's the same thing I've heard through the rumor-mill. Just use very hot water. Dry the wok and then put it back on a hot burner/flame (just like what you would do with a cast iron skillet) until any damp spots are gone and the wok is completely dry. This flame drying helps prevent rust on the wok.

There are supposed to be special (bamboo?) brushes, too, that you can buy that are supposed to help clean your wok without disturbing the wok-hey (hai?).

I'll try to post a picture of my still-developing wok.

[Ben Hong]

Wok hei is not a function of a seasoned wok alone. That in conjunction with extreme high heat, timing, harmonious seasonings, and perfect technique "may" produce that ephemeral quality in a well turned Chinese dish.

[Dejah]

Dejah -- You wrote:

"A customer asking for a substitution in a dish often resulted in a new item. For example, the chop suey snack (chop suey on a burger bun) became a Saturday night special when a customer asked for bread instead of rice. These were the perfect size for the ladies as they waited for their men to come out of the "men only" pubs in the 50s and 60s. This was a typical scene from a prairie town on a Saturday night...another story

I'mn not even going to tell my DH about that combo ----- he will try it!  And he will LOVE it! 

AAAARRRGGGHHHHH! See what I have to put up with??!!  LOL!

←

Jo-mel,

It's ok for your DH to love this. My Mom still enjoys a dish of freshly cooked chop suey once in a while. Sometimes it's just nice fresh cabbage stir-fried with dried shrimp. If Po-Po says it's good, then your DH can enjoy it without shame.

Ben Sook,

Again, you hit it right on the nail as to "wok hei". I think continuously cooking in the wok and caring for it is part of seasoning, but it's the high heat, the timing of the addition of oil, seasonings and ingredients, and the movement of the ingredients, thus distribution of heat evenly, that produces wok hei.

It's illusive...sigh...

[ash123]

Ah Leung:

It would be great to have the pcitorial guide for ingredients. Please let me know when you are done with it. After sometime you can even publish a book and make some good money. :-)

I tried your honey pork chops yesterday and I loved it. It was really good. As I didn't have malt sugar, I used brown sugar instead. Does malt sugar have a good flavor? I am thinking of buying it for my next try. I love trying good flavors.

Thanks!

Edited April 14, 2006 by ash123 (log)

[ash123]

Dejah:

Thanks a lot for sharing the recipe for "golden glaze". I will give it a try and then let you know how it went. Would you also happen to know how they make that "black glaze" for general Tso's? Just add dark soy? If you woldn't mind my asking, there is another dish that I really like in restaurant, and it is served as shrimps in tomato sauce. Would you know how to make that tomato sauce (is it just the ketchup or is there something else?). If you happen to know, then please let me know. Thanks a lot Dejah, I really appreciate your help.

I like some of the American Chinese dishes (I guess they are more American than Chinese), but I love most of the authentic Chinese dishes. I like some of the restaurant chinese food however Chop Suey sloppy joes sounds out of the world. Never heard of a funnier dish! :-)) Looks like a total fusion of the East and the West.