Small Kitchen Renovation Appliance Choices?

[azlee]

I have finally started my small kitchen (5'x7') renovation. The new and level tile floor is in and grouted, the re-plumbing is almost finished and walls and new lighting are being installed shortly.

And now the dilemna... the kitchen is actually shade less than 5x7 with appliances and cabinets on the two slightly less than 5 foot walls (58.5" and 59.5"). This means that I can have only one full sized appliance and I cannot decide which it should be.

At this point, I am leaning towards an 18" Miele Incognito dishwasher on the 59.5" wall and either a 24" or 30" Liebherr fridge and either a 30" Dacor Millenium electric range or 24" Kuppersbusch electric oven (EEB 6800) and ceramic sensor cooktop (EKE 602.4) together in a single 24" cabinet. So it's either full size range and small fridge or full size fridge and 24" range components. I bake, so fridge/freezer storage space is about as important as oven space, to me. The Kuppersbusch oven is surprisingly roomy inside.

So, I wonder if anyone here has experience with these brands and models and also if the there are any strong views on the advantages or disadvantages or choosing the smaller fridge or the smaller oven/cooktop combo? Gas is not an option in my coop, otherwise I would just go for the Viking 24" gas range and the 30" Liebherr fridge.

I'm also open to suggestions for alternative combinations. I'm just at my wits end and need to start placing appliance orders very soon.

Thanks

Azlee

[jgm]

I don't know anything about the specific appliances you mention.

However, my gut tells me to go for the full-size fridge and the smaller range, if the oven will be big enough to accommodate your needs.

My reasoning: you can augment cooking space, if needed, with counter-top appliances, such as a single burner, a toaster oven, a large roaster, crockpot, etc. Refrigerator space is difficult to increase. About your only option there would be to buy more, smaller refrigerators, and put them in strange places, such as a bedroom. That doesn't seem very desirable to me.

[SuzySushi]

I've been in small apartments, and my current townhouse (which we're just renovating) has a small, unexpandable kitchen as well.

I'm with jgm: Go for the larger fridge! You can always augment cooking appliances or bake in shifts. But storage space for food before and after it's been cooked is critical.

[azlee]

I've been in small apartments, and my current townhouse (which we're just renovating) has a small, unexpandable kitchen as well.

I'm with jgm: Go for the larger fridge! You can always augment cooking appliances or bake in shifts. But storage space for food before and after it's been cooked is critical.

←

Yes, I've been thinking that a convection microwave might be a good second appliance. May I ask which cabinets you are considering for your renovation?

Thanks!

Azlee

[Kouign Aman]

I third the motion. Maximize the fridge. Good luck and enjoy.

[382]

Interesting dilemma. I have been living with a 24" KitchenAid gas oven for the past 20 years, ironically paired with a 42" KitchenAid cooktop, and a 36" wide built-in refrigerator. The original refrigerator, whose name escapes me but the company was taken over by Northland that is making the same refrigerator, was tremendous inside. The current refrigerator is a GE - fits in the same space, but has about half as much usable space but then again makes about half as much noise.

The 24" KitchenAid oven is very small inside and I have trouble fitting roasting pans and even standard jellyroll pans are a tight fit. That being said, I too do a fair amount of baking, and have been able to make do. Your point about the amount of room in the Kuppersbusch is what is important. You really need to take along with you your favorite cookware to the showroom and see if it really fits - the same goes with refrigerator

My other point, which I have been trying to around get to, is where you live and for that matter where I live, I am in Brooklyn, is how we shop and cook. Living in one of the few metropolitan locations in this country that allows one to live like a European begs the question, how large a kitchen and how much storage do we really need? All philosophy aside, check out the real usable room in the Liebherr refrigerator (stay away form the Sub-Zero - literally nothing more than a façade with no room inside) and consider going with a 24" oven and cooktop and a 24" refrigerator with the pay off being more countertop.

[SuzySushi]

May I ask which cabinets you are considering for your renovation?

Thanks!

Azlee

←

Oh, we didn't do anything to the cabinets. We got a new fridge (the largest we could within the width limitation, which confines us to a top mount) and may be replacing the range (unless the home warranty insurance co. can dig up new a computer board to replace the old controls that are broken). Other than that, our renovations were paint and ceramic tiles.

[azlee]

Interesting dilemma.  I have been living with a 24" KitchenAid gas oven for the past 20 years, ironically paired with a 42" KitchenAid cooktop, and a 36" wide built-in refrigerator.  The original refrigerator, whose name escapes me but the company was taken over by Northland that is making the same refrigerator, was tremendous inside.  The current refrigerator is a GE - fits in the same space, but has about half as much usable space but then again makes about half as much noise. 

The 24" KitchenAid oven is very small inside and I have trouble fitting roasting pans and even standard jellyroll pans are a tight fit.  That being said, I too do a fair amount of baking, and have been able to make do.  Your point about the amount of room in the Kuppersbusch is what is important.  You really need to take along with you your favorite cookware to the showroom and see if it really fits - the same goes with refrigerator

My other point, which I have been trying to around get to, is where you live and for that matter where I live, I am in Brooklyn, is how we shop and cook.  Living in one of the few metropolitan locations in this country that allows one to live like a European begs the question, how large a kitchen and how much storage do we really need?  All philosophy aside, check out the real usable room in the Liebherr refrigerator (stay away form the Sub-Zero - literally nothing more than a façade with no room inside) and consider going with a 24" oven and cooktop and a 24" refrigerator with the pay off being more countertop.

←

I am also in Brooklyn and aside from wanting to store Fresh Direct pizzas and the occasional turkey in my freezer, I might actually be able to get away with the 24" Liebherr and gain space for a 9 inch cabinet which would be great for touchdown space between the fridge and cooktop. I think I'll be taking your suggestion and sometime this week filling a hopping bag with baking sheets and angel food pans and the cardboard from pizzas and heading back tot he appliance showroom. It's really the only way to know for sure. The fridge part of the Liebherr is probably adequate, it's the freezer part that concerns me. It would probably be healthier to do more daily shopping for fresh foods and Brooklyn is one of the best places to do that kind of shopping.

Cheers

Azlee

[ChefCrash]

Azlee

Do you have children? Do you eat leftovers? Do you buy food in bulk? Do you use more than one frying pan at the same time often? Do you have room for another fridge/freezer elswhere in your appartement?

I have a full size fridge and it's full. Full of leftovers waiting to spoil before they're thrown out. My recently new other half doesn't believe in throwing away good food. So she waits for it to spoil first.

Before I got married and while raising my two children, The fridge held: Cooking condiments, milk, eggs, cold cuts for after school snacks. Oh ya beer. Ingredients for the evening meal were bought the same day. If leftovers couldn't be wrapped for school lunches, they were thrown out.

My vote is for the full size stove. Specially since you bake.

[loiosh]

In Australia, we have smaller appliances on average than those in the US. People do buy huge amounts of stuff at the supermarket, but if you look closely, a lot of it is shelf-stable staples. I think people buy more stuff fresh at the greengrocer or butcher, and more frequently. So I suppose it depends on how often you like to shop.

Personally, I don't mind having a small fridge and oven. If you're cooking for one or two, a smaller fridge and oven aren't really anything to worry about. As for my tiny oven, well, the Le Creuset fits in there, so I'm happy.

[bleudauvergne]

I have an itty bitty kitchen like yours and we chose a smaller dishwasher (for 8 place settings instead of full size), full size cooktop and oven, and did not choose the big fridge - we went smaller which is standard in Europe. The oven would still be considered a bit small but it does just fine. Having all the burners for me was essential to being able to cook properly, as well as a good sized real oven where I can bake and roast normally. We went with a contemporary vitroceramic top for both workspace and lack of gas connection, and I love it as much as I did gas (plus being able to mince and chop on one side while cooking on another is good in a small space). The fridge could actually be smaller than it is, and we'd be happy. I live in the city and don't really stock up though.

[azlee]

I'm starting to think this is going to be a really hard decision. Harder than choosing tile or fixtures or deciding whether or not to tear down walls. I tend to order shelf staples and longer lasting fresh veggies and meat for the freezer from Fresh Direct every other week or every third week depending upon my at home schedule and buying fresh foods in the neighborhood, as needed. I do keep leftovers but often do not get back to them before they spoil. i wonder if having a smaller fridge might force me to waste less?

[Marlene]

I might go for the full size Dacor. Of course, I have a Dacor range and I'm rather partial to it. If you have the option, you could put a small bar fridge in your bedroom or living room and keep pops and juices and other small things in it, freeing up storage space in your fridge.

[382]

I am also in Brooklyn and aside from wanting to store Fresh Direct pizzas and the occasional turkey in my freezer, ...  The fridge part of the Liebherr is probably adequate, it's the freezer part that concerns me. It would probably be healthier to do more daily shopping for fresh foods and Brooklyn is one of the best places to do that kind of shopping.

Cheers

Azlee

←

FROZEN PIZZA in Brooklyn? Shame on you! Frozen turkey? Really, if you limit those two items you will probably have more than enough room in the freezer.

I should talk, my freezer is full of duck fat, pork skin, chicken carcasses and other things which I can't identify anymore.

Let us know how it works out.

Jason

[azlee]

I am also in Brooklyn and aside from wanting to store Fresh Direct pizzas and the occasional turkey in my freezer, ...  The fridge part of the Liebherr is probably adequate, it's the freezer part that concerns me. It would probably be healthier to do more daily shopping for fresh foods and Brooklyn is one of the best places to do that kind of shopping.

Cheers

Azlee

←

FROZEN PIZZA in Brooklyn? Shame on you! Frozen turkey? Really, if you limit those two items you will probably have more than enough room in the freezer.

I should talk, my freezer is full of duck fat, pork skin, chicken carcasses and other things which I can't identify anymore.

Let us know how it works out.

Jason

←

Well, the pizza is actually for my teenaged nephew who visits and likes to midnight snack on pizza and the turkey I get free about twice a year from the local supermarket at the holidays. Mostly, my freezer is filled with lots of unsalted butter bought on sale and homemade puff pastry leaves for emergency hors d'oeuvres and of course ICE CREAM. I have to place my appliance orders soon and will keep y'all posted. Does anyone have a Liebherr fridge? A sub-zero would be a perfect fit w/ a full size range but the price, to me, is insanely high and I always hear that they (sub-zero)have a lot of service problems. If only I had another inch of wall space...

[azlee]

I am also in Brooklyn and aside from wanting to store Fresh Direct pizzas and the occasional turkey in my freezer, ...  The fridge part of the Liebherr is probably adequate, it's the freezer part that concerns me. It would probably be healthier to do more daily shopping for fresh foods and Brooklyn is one of the best places to do that kind of shopping.

Cheers

Azlee

←

FROZEN PIZZA in Brooklyn? Shame on you! Frozen turkey? Really, if you limit those two items you will probably have more than enough room in the freezer.

I should talk, my freezer is full of duck fat, pork skin, chicken carcasses and other things which I can't identify anymore.

Let us know how it works out.

Jason

←

Well, the pizza is actually for my teenaged nephew who visits and likes to midnight snack on pizza and the turkey I get free about twice a year from the local supermarket at the holidays. Mostly, my freezer is filled with lots of unsalted butter bought on sale and homemade puff pastry leaves for emergency hors d'oeuvres and of course ICE CREAM. I have to place my appliance orders soon and will keep y'all posted. Does anyone have a Liebherr fridge? A sub-zero would be a perfect fit w/ a full size range but the price, to me, is insanely high and I always hear that they (sub-zero)have a lot of service problems. If only I had another inch of wall space...

←

of course, now i'll have to buy fancy european cabinets to accomodate the cooktop and oven. i wonder why none of the appliances manufacturers make a stainless rack that would hold both 24" components. kuppersbusch actually makes a rack to hold a 36" oven and cooktop but not for their smaller components.

[Daddy-A]

Does anyone have a Liebherr fridge? A sub-zero would be a perfect fit w/ a full size range but the price, to me, is insanely high and I always hear that they (sub-zero)have a lot of service problems. If only I had another inch of wall space...

Well, any good kitchen designer or architect will have a wall-stretcher.

I don't have a Liebherr, but have installed many of them over the past 2-3 years. They are highly recommended by those that own them. I think their biggest downfall in North America is that few people know about them. LG also makes a couple 24" fridges, but they are "cheaper" in qaulity than the Liebherr IMO.

What size sink are you planning, or is this not negotiable. Kitchens this small benefit from a single bowl sink, which frees up more room on the countertop. This is the only downside to using a larger range ... less counterspace. Can you live with the Kuppersbusch combination (induction ROCKS btw!)? That would maximize the work space.

A.

[azlee]

Does anyone have a Liebherr fridge? A sub-zero would be a perfect fit w/ a full size range but the price, to me, is insanely high and I always hear that they (sub-zero)have a lot of service problems. If only I had another inch of wall space...

Well, any good kitchen designer or architect will have a wall-stretcher.

I don't have a Liebherr, but have installed many of them over the past 2-3 years. They are highly recommended by those that own them. I think their biggest downfall in North America is that few people know about them. LG also makes a couple 24" fridges, but they are "cheaper" in qaulity than the Liebherr IMO.

What size sink are you planning, or is this not negotiable. Kitchens this small benefit from a single bowl sink, which frees up more room on the countertop. This is the only downside to using a larger range ... less counterspace. Can you live with the Kuppersbusch combination (induction ROCKS btw!)? That would maximize the work space.

A.

←

Hi there! good to hear that Liebherr are loved by those who own them. The sink will probably be a 20" sink in a 24" cabinet and two 18" cabinets next to that, one with drawers, the other rollouts, I think.

Recycling and trash under the sink cabinet. I am thinking Poggenpohl for cabinets. I wish it could be Bulthaup. As it is, I may have to wait a bit before ordering the cabinets.

Edited March 28, 2006 by azlee (log)

[crouching tyler]

We have a 24" Liebherr, which we bought in August 2005. So, I can't say anything about the longer term, but so far we love it. It is well designed, quiet, and super efficient. I describe it as a super model ( tall, sleek, styllish) crossed with a librarian (quiet, efficient).

We had a similiar dilemma with a smallish kitchen - actually more of an awkward kitchen, and opted for standard cooktop/oven and sleek, stylish, skinny refrigerator. There is a thread lurking around in the depths of egullet that lays out our particular situation - but that is largely irrelevant to you.

My recommendation - based on experience with the Liebherr and the standard size oven/range - is to do just that. We occasionally have to resort to a cooler to keep beer/sodas/ice cold if we are having a party, but that has been the only inconvenience. And we usually have 10 lbs of chicken in our freezer at any given time (long tangent - it is for the dog - spoilt damn dog).

I have lived in apartments with small stoves/cooktops and infinitely prefer the convenience of having a cooktop on which you can have at least two largish pots/pans, and an oven in which you put two 9 inch cakes pans next to each other.

So, in summary:

Love the Liebherr

Buy the biggest range/oven you can!

Good luck with the new kitchen!

[azlee]

We have a 24" Liebherr, which we bought in August 2005. So, I can't say anything about the longer term, but  so far we love it. It is well designed, quiet, and super efficient. I describe it as a super model ( tall, sleek, styllish) crossed with a librarian (quiet, efficient).

We had a similiar dilemma with a smallish kitchen - actually more of an awkward kitchen, and opted for standard cooktop/oven and sleek, stylish, skinny refrigerator. There is a thread lurking around in the depths of egullet that lays out our particular situation - but    that is largely irrelevant to you.

My recommendation - based on experience with the Liebherr and the standard size oven/range - is to do just that. We occasionally have to resort to a cooler to keep beer/sodas/ice cold if we are having a party, but that has been the only inconvenience. And we usually have 10 lbs of chicken in our freezer at any given time (long tangent - it is for the dog - spoilt damn dog).

I have lived in apartments with small stoves/cooktops and infinitely prefer the convenience of having a cooktop on which you can have at least two largish pots/pans, and an oven in which you  put two 9 inch cakes pans next to each other.

So, in summary:

Love the Liebherr

Buy the biggest range/oven you can!

Good luck with the new kitchen!

←

Crouching Tyler, I found your thread and your kitchen is really charming. Tough layout with so many openings. I love the idea of closing in your porch to make more space. Thanks for your input on the Liebherr. I think I just need to take along some containers from foods I usually keep and see if they fit.

[382]

I am also in Brooklyn and aside from wanting to store Fresh Direct pizzas and the occasional turkey in my freezer, ...  The fridge part of the Liebherr is probably adequate, it's the freezer part that concerns me. It would probably be healthier to do more daily shopping for fresh foods and Brooklyn is one of the best places to do that kind of shopping.

Cheers

Azlee

←

FROZEN PIZZA in Brooklyn? Shame on you! Frozen turkey? Really, if you limit those two items you will probably have more than enough room in the freezer.

I should talk, my freezer is full of duck fat, pork skin, chicken carcasses and other things which I can't identify anymore.

Let us know how it works out.

Jason

←

Well, the pizza is actually for my teenaged nephew who visits and likes to midnight snack on pizza and the turkey I get free about twice a year from the local supermarket at the holidays. Mostly, my freezer is filled with lots of unsalted butter bought on sale and homemade puff pastry leaves for emergency hors d'oeuvres and of course ICE CREAM. I have to place my appliance orders soon and will keep y'all posted. Does anyone have a Liebherr fridge? A sub-zero would be a perfect fit w/ a full size range but the price, to me, is insanely high and I always hear that they (sub-zero)have a lot of service problems. If only I had another inch of wall space...

←

of course, now i'll have to buy fancy european cabinets to accomodate the cooktop and oven. i wonder why none of the appliances manufacturers make a stainless rack that would hold both 24" components. kuppersbusch actually makes a rack to hold a 36" oven and cooktop but not for their smaller components.

←

Two items to comment on "If only I had another inch of wall space..." ...and "now I'll have to buy fancy european cabinets..." What type of building do you live in? Do you have a Contractor yet? Carving out that other inch is not unheard of and solutions can get pretty creative. If you have a Contractor, have them do the necessary due diligence to see if a little demolition and reframing may get you your inch. The other item to consider is the cabinets. For the price of Poggenpohl cabinets you can have your cabinets custom made by someone local. Custom cabinets may allow you to pick up that extra inch or accommodate whatever may be in the way that doesn't allow you to pick up that inch.

[coquus]

^

the floor is already grouted (paid for), so i doubt there is an option of carving out more space. it's a tough call, i personally would like to go with more dry storage than either stove or fridge if i was in, say, Brooklyn, but then again not many folks there have as much kitchen stuff and dry goods as I do, i imagine. i like counter space as well, and at 5 by 7, i'm guessing that is what 7'-4'+2'=5' maximum if you have a single bowl sink. i would definately maximize counterspace and go with fewer, smaller appliances.

[azlee]

I am also in Brooklyn and aside from wanting to store Fresh Direct pizzas and the occasional turkey in my freezer, ...  The fridge part of the Liebherr is probably adequate, it's the freezer part that concerns me. It would probably be healthier to do more daily shopping for fresh foods and Brooklyn is one of the best places to do that kind of shopping.

Cheers

Azlee

←

FROZEN PIZZA in Brooklyn? Shame on you! Frozen turkey? Really, if you limit those two items you will probably have more than enough room in the freezer.

I should talk, my freezer is full of duck fat, pork skin, chicken carcasses and other things which I can't identify anymore.

Let us know how it works out.

Jason

←

Well, the pizza is actually for my teenaged nephew who visits and likes to midnight snack on pizza and the turkey I get free about twice a year from the local supermarket at the holidays. Mostly, my freezer is filled with lots of unsalted butter bought on sale and homemade puff pastry leaves for emergency hors d'oeuvres and of course ICE CREAM. I have to place my appliance orders soon and will keep y'all posted. Does anyone have a Liebherr fridge? A sub-zero would be a perfect fit w/ a full size range but the price, to me, is insanely high and I always hear that they (sub-zero)have a lot of service problems. If only I had another inch of wall space...

←

of course, now i'll have to buy fancy european cabinets to accomodate the cooktop and oven. i wonder why none of the appliances manufacturers make a stainless rack that would hold both 24" components. kuppersbusch actually makes a rack to hold a 36" oven and cooktop but not for their smaller components.

←

Two items to comment on "If only I had another inch of wall space..." ...and "now I'll have to buy fancy european cabinets..." What type of building do you live in? Do you have a Contractor yet? Carving out that other inch is not unheard of and solutions can get pretty creative. If you have a Contractor, have them do the necessary due diligence to see if a little demolition and reframing may get you your inch. The other item to consider is the cabinets. For the price of Poggenpohl cabinets you can have your cabinets custom made by someone local. Custom cabinets may allow you to pick up that extra inch or accommodate whatever may be in the way that doesn't allow you to pick up that inch.

←

Thanks for the suggestions, unfortunately, we cannot carve out an extra inch on that particular wall. We were able to carve out a needed half inch on the opposite kitchen wall for the base cabinets. The wall with the appliances would only have a single cabinet for the cooktop and oven, using a european cabinet manufacturer for the european appliances is probably more time and cost efficient in this case, since they already make cabinets specifically for that application. If I can avoid the need for any base cabinet on the appliance wall (for example, if I go with the 24" fridge and 30" range) I can use any brand of cabinets.

I just meant that use of the euro sized cooking appliances would likely require a euro cabinet. I'll try to post some sample layouts, if I can. That might make it easier to understand the limitations.

[coquus]

  For the price of Poggenpohl cabinets you can have your cabinets custom made by someone local.  Custom cabinets may allow you to pick up that extra inch or accommodate whatever may be in the way that doesn't allow you to pick up that inch.

←

Thanks for the suggestions, unfortunately, we cannot carve out an extra inch on that particular wall. We were able to carve out a needed half inch on the opposite kitchen wall for the base cabinets. The wall with the appliances would only have a single cabinet for the cooktop and oven, using a european cabinet manufacturer for the european appliances is probably more time and cost efficient in this case, since they already make cabinets specifically for that application. If I can avoid the need for any base cabinet on the appliance wall (for example, if I go with the 24" fridge and 30" range) I can use any brand of cabinets.

I just meant that use of the euro sized cooking appliances would likely require a euro cabinet. I'll try to post some sample layouts, if I can. That might make it easier to understand the limitations.

←

they make cabinets in lots of sizes, with the right spacers, which are generally needed anyway, especially if youe butt up to a corner, you could make it work with what you have, i think.

[azlee]

^

the floor is already grouted (paid for), so i doubt there is an option of carving out more space.  it's a tough call, i personally would like to go with more dry storage than either stove or fridge if i was in, say, Brooklyn, but then again not many folks there have as much kitchen stuff and dry goods as I do, i imagine.  i like counter space as well, and at 5 by 7,  i'm guessing that is what 7'-4'+2'=5' maximum if you have a single bowl sink.  i would definately maximize counterspace and go with fewer, smaller appliances.

←

I plan to convert a nearby closet into a pantry for dry goods and equipment storage (but sadly, the space is not suitable for the fridge.) I have plenty of kitchen stuff collected over almost 40 years of cooking. I'm mostly looking for counter space and cooking space in the kitchen. The sink will be small but deep and covered with a cutting board some of the time in order to gain extra counter space. And given that the floor is finished you're right, that it would be a nightmare to start moving walls now, if it could be done. If I bite the bullet and pay for extra cabinets and go with the 24" fridge and 24" cooking setup, I could squeeze maybe another 9" of counter and storage space out of the kitchen but the extra cost may not be worth it in the end. So many choices...