Assessing Restaurants

[Fat Guy]

not really trying to be as provocative as you might think

Being unnecessarily provocative is so second-nature to Plotnicki that he can hardly help himself!

He is, however, entirely correct on the narrow point. Plenty of tastes need to be acquired by most people (you do run into the occasional person who loves very advanced food or wine upon first tasting it, but this is not normal). I would simply add that anybody with a functioning olfactory bulb and taste buds can acquire the set of tastes that is shared by most gourmets in the Western world. Thus, egalitarianism is a much more realistic prospect when it comes to food than it is when it comes to the social order. In fact one might argue that there is a nation called France that for a time relied heavily on this premise as a means of social control -- though I wouldn't want to send this topic off on yet another tangent.

[jaybee]

Among my "crew" we have a simple statement that says it all about the food in a restaurant: "the taste is there." If it is, the place is good. If it isn't, it ain't.

Then factor in noise, location, service and price and you have the "peripherals" that will affect how often I would go there if the "taste was there." For example, Jean Luc, in my neighborhood, serves some very tasty dishes. But the place is so painfully noisy that I will only go there for an early dinner (5:30-6 p.m.) when fewer people are there.

Occasionally, one finds places that serve a particular dish that is killer, and I would go there for that dish, and that dish only. (If I found a restaurant that made killer veal parmigian, I would add it to my list).

[Fat Guy]

I have a "posse" rather than a crew. But among my "peeps" the expression is "gets it," as in "the chef gets it." Similar, I think, to what you're talking about.

[jaybee]

"Posse" originates either in the wild west or in South Central LA. "Crew" originates in Queens or Staten Island. The former comprises good guys chasing bad guys. The latter comprises bad guys chasing bad guys. We baaaaad... tha's right, we baaaaad.

(Courtesy of Richard Pryor and Gene Wilder).

[Fat Guy]

My posse is Jamaican, actually, which means we're really, really bad. Don't even think about serving a corked wine to my posse.

[Steve Plotnicki]

"Plenty of tastes need to be acquired by most people (you do run into the occasional person who loves very advanced food or wine upon first tasting it, but this is not normal)."

The best example is how people do not usually like mature wine when they first start drinking wine. I've seen it happen over and over again that someone who is given one of the world's great bottles of wine says ,' what's so special about this, it tastes spoiled to me?" Most American wine drinkers I know including moi, rejected European wine for Californian and Australian wines when they first started collecting. But quite often those people acquire a taste for European wines including acquiring a taste for mature wines (this would include moi.) And in many, many instances, they are no longer able to tolerate New World wines unless they have been made in a style that echoes European style.

[Gavin Jones]

So at some point you weren't a connoisseur?

[Jonathan Day]

Plenty of tastes need to be acquired by most people (you do run into the occasional person who loves very advanced food or wine upon first tasting it, but this is not normal).

I am constantly surprised by how variable childrens' tastes are, even at a young age. In general, they have a strong preference for sweet tastes and a general intolerance of bitter overtones -- hence the frequently-observed dislike of many vegetables, which often have bitter notes. Is this nature or nurture, or a combination of both?

My youngest (now 7) somehow has many of "my" tastes: he likes dark, bitter chocolate where his siblings stick to sweet milk chocolates. He likes meat cooked very rare, which the other two don't. Like his siblings, he loves to eat duck but prefers it it without sweet sauces. He doesn't like ketchup. And he likes complex cheeses and is prepared to try them, including Epoisses.

Alas, he still doesn't like to eat green vegetables.

[Fat Guy]

Plotnicki, that example is so good it's actually the one I had in mind when I wrote what I wrote. I don't care what everybody says, you're no dummy. And JD, though we see this phenomenon most often with children, I think that's just because children are the people we're most likely to run into during their formative stages. But probably if you ran into an adult who had lived his whole life over on some beach eating nothing but fruit, you'd witness a similar progression. I think it's as much about experience as it is about age.

[Steve Plotnicki]

At some point I didn't even drink wine (about 10 years ago.) But I always had a good palate for food. It's easier to have a close relationship with food then it is with wine. Wine is organized in a very confusing manner and that aspect of it always made me hesitant to delve into the topic. But then a friend of mine gave me two bottles one x-mas and that spurred me to try and decode the mysteries of wine. I quickly found that French wine is better organized but more difficult to appreciate because of the subtle complexities. American wine is easier to understand but is void of complexity although overflowing with a multitude of ripe fruit. It makes for an easier launch point for the hobby. But many people I know made the switch to French wines, or Italian wines after a few years.

[Fat Guy]

Clarification: I agree with the principle behind the example, but not entirely with the dis on New-World-style wines as a group. But that's for another thread.

[Jonathan Day]

though we see this phenomenon most often with children, I think that's just because children are the people we're most likely to run into during their formative stages. But probably if you ran into an adult who had lived his whole life over on some beach eating nothing but fruit, you'd witness a similar progression. I think it's as much about experience as it is about age.

FG, I obviously wasn't clear in my communication.

I was talking about variance, not about progression. The youngest child has very "adult" tastes. The two older children have less "developed" tastes. I am confident that all three will develop more refined and confident palates over time, but it's striking that one of the three seems to have got there long before his older siblings.

[Fat Guy]

No, I just didn't read carefully.

[jaybee]

"Plenty of tastes need to be acquired by most people (you do run into the occasional person who loves very advanced food or wine upon first tasting it, but this is not normal)."

The best example is how people do not usually like mature wine when they first start drinking wine.

The same can be said for taste in cigars. When I first started smoking cigars, I gravitated to the mildest, least innoccuous types. Now my favorites are the most powerful and complex cigars (Cuban Hoyo Monterrey Double Coronas, Partagas Series D, No.4, Bolivar Robustos, Monte Cristo No. 2 torpedos). The Opus X is another example of a powerful, "heavy" taste popular today. Whenever I've given a new Cuban stick to an inexperienced cigar smoker, they do not like them. They say they are too strong, bitter, overpowering.

Another issue related to taste is how the standard of "best" can change. I have a stock of differnt pre-Castro Havanas (Dunhill, Por Larrañagas, Flor de Canos) which have a totally different taste profile from those popular today. They are lighter, much more delicate and perfumey (if I can use that word for cigars). Apparently, the connoisseur's cigar "palate" of the 1950's was different from that of contemporary aficianados. Either that, or their tastes were trained by the then current definition of "the best." Interesting, no?

[Wilfrid]

Plotnicki - You've only been drinking wine for ten years? My first surprise of the day on eGullet, and probably not my last.

I know two brothers who share a lot of tastes. But one has lived most of his adult life in France, the other in England. The former prefers French wines, and fines New World wines sweet and gluey. The latter prefers Australian/New World and Italian wines, and finds French wines dull and tasteless. In the 1980s and 1990s, good French wines were over-priced in England in comparison to wines from Australia and other countries, which explains the UK-based brother's tastes. Swap their locales, and their tastes would swap too, I swear.

So custom has a lot to do with it as well as education. Having lived both in the UK, and in the States, where French wines are more fairly priced, I appreciate a range of styles. In moderation, of course.

[hollywood]

Nick--maybe the way to approach Steve's statement is like this:  imagine someone watching a movie like Kurosawa's "Seven Samurai" or viewing a performance of a Mozart opera like "Cosi fan Tutti" for the first time.  Even if you don't read the subtitles or surtitles-- if the work or performance is good--the inherent emotion and the drama conveys or transcends your limitations--even if you don't understand the language and are new to opera and Japanese film.  You sense what's going on even if you can't fully appreciate it or understand it or articulate why, but, some people just aren't going to get it.

Steve may be on the "Seven Samurai" path. I opt for "Rashomon." So call me egalitarian! And I feel certain he's wrong about Hendrix.

[Fat Guy]

Not to get too sidetracked on the cigar issue, but I'm not sure the connoisseur's palate has changed all that much. Those heavyweight Cuban cigars don't appeal to me, and I've gone through pretty much the full tasting-curve of cigar appreciation. I prefer the older style better, which is why if you let me loose in Dunhill in London I'll choose Cuban Romeo y Julietas over most anything else. I think the heavyweights are a fad and everybody will return to balance eventually.

[Steve Plotnicki]

No I've been drinking wine much longer than that. But it is only ten years that I started to decode it's mysteries. I have spent much of that time catching up to where I would be if I had been serious for 20 years instead of 10. Unfortunately that 10 years I missed was costly as wine caught on with a larger percentage of the population in the last 10 years so it's been a more expensive hobby. In fact last night one of the people we were out to dinner with was talking about 1982 Mouton selling for $700 a case at auction in 1987. Today it's $9000 a case. So it was a tough 10 years to miss.

As to your story about the two brothers, you are just really describing enculturation (there's that word again) based on location. It even affects me. For example when I'm in a place like the Central Coast of California, I can enjoy a local pinot noir. But it isn't something I would ever dream of drinking when I'm back in NY. And I'm sure that if I lived in Australia I would acquire a taste for Shiraz even though I think the stuff is fairly deadly. But I don't think that has anything to do with an objective view of wine and it's complexities. And when the brother who lived in Britain commented that French wine was "dull and boring," that's like me saying I can't see what people see in the ballet. Because the truth of it is I do not know how to appreciate the ballet so that's why I don't like it. That's completely different than knowing how to appreciate it but still not liking it.

I'll go out on a limb here and state the following Plotnickiism. I think there are very few things that people come to understand where they do not learn how to appreciate it as a result of that understanding. Chew that one over for a while.

[Wilfrid]

Chewing.

I think you're right about two things, anyway. There should be two i's in "Plotnickiism", and ballet is an utter mystery. Modern dance I get, but ballet - sorry, no. And, as you imply, it doesn't mean it's crap - just that I haven't grasped it (or really tried to).

[LaNiña]

Hmm, that Plotnickiism is interesting. But what about when someone learns, studies, and perhaps understands something, only to discover they do not in fact appreciate it? My mother describes this as having no "access." For example, she is a great lover and student of painting, and despite her understanding and knowledge of certain paintings/painters, she doesn't have access to certain things...is that "appreciation?"

[Steve Plotnicki]

"But what about when someone learns, studies, and perhaps understands something, only to discover they do not in fact appreciate it? My mother describes this as having no "access."

Nina - But you left out the punchline. Why doesn't she like it?

[Wilfrid]

We are making some useful distinctions here today. I agree that it is possible to have a fairly good intellectual understanding of something, but remain unmoved by it. Easy to give examples from the world of art, but I think it applies to the world of gastronomy too. It's a quite different matter to have no appreciation for something because it is not understood, or because one's taste has not been appropriately educated.

Steve P., for example, certainly understands Californian pinot noirs, but his appreciation of them is limited. On the other hand, he utterly dislikes British food, but has no clear idea of what it is.

[hollywood]

As to your story about the two brothers, you are just really describing enculturation (there's that word again) based on location. It even affects me. For example when I'm in a place like the Central Coast of California, I can enjoy a local pinot noir. But it isn't something I would ever dream of drinking when I'm back in NY. And I'm sure that if I lived in Australia I would acquire a taste for Shiraz even though I think the stuff is fairly deadly. But I don't think that has anything to do with an objective view of wine and it's complexities. And when the brother who lived in Britain commented that French wine was "dull and boring," that's like me saying I can't see what people see in the ballet. Because the truth of it is I do not know how to appreciate the ballet so that's why I don't like it. That's completely different than knowing how to appreciate it but still not liking it.

I'll go out on a limb here and state the following Plotnickiism. I think there are very few things that people come to understand where they do not learn how to appreciate it as a result of that understanding. Chew that one over for a while.

By your own terms, I wonder if you understand pinot noir. You might want to revisit this one. As for understanding leading to appreciation, its sounds tautological to me.

[Jinmyo]

Shiraz even though I think the stuff is fairly deadly.

[macrosan]

By your [steveP's] own terms, I wonder if you understand pinot noir.  You might want to revisit this one.  As for understanding leading to appreciation, its sounds tautological to me.

I shudder at my temerity in putting new words into StevePs mouth, but I assumed he meant "enjoyment" rather than "appreciation".

(quickly turns and starts to flee....)