Cocoa Nibs

[thegreatdane]

Hi,

This is only my second posting on this fantastic board, and though my eyes are bulging out from reading so much, I look forward to learning incredible things from so many experienced and talented people.

Now, with that bit of scraping out of the way, I'll get on to my question; does anyone know where I can get whole unroasted cacao nibs? I've found a couple of sites on the web of resellers, at considerable price, I might add, and I'm looking for a source of perhaps Trinitario or good Forestero to experiment with.

Any suggestions appreciated.

Thanks,

Tom

[marit]

I don't have a direct answer to your question - by "whole unroasted cacao nib" do you mean unroasted cacao beans? I guess you have already come across scharffenberger nibs and that isn't what you wanted?

I also have a question - has anybody tried the nibs from http://www.stoneandgiacomotto.com/ they also seem to be based in northern california, but are more expensive than scharffenberger.

Maybe local neighborhood cacao roasters will exist in the future the way coffee roasters do today.

[thegreatdane]

I've run across stoneandgiacomotto.com on the web but haven't bought any of their goods yet. I also found another location chocolatealchemy.com that retails nibs. He's experimenting with making chocolate at home.

Yes, by "whole unroasted cacao nib" I mean unroasted cacao beans. I've read that the bean is called a nib. Am I wrong? I've tried El Rey nib bits and while tasty they're unacceptable because of the stems and shells I've found in them. Maybe I got a bad batch.

I seriously doubt there will ever be neighborhood cacao roasters, but you never know. Sure would smell nice.

I'm looking for a wholesale source of unroasted cacao beans. Any ideas, suggestions, experiences, etc. anyone has in working with or finding beans I'd like to hear.

Thanks,

Tom

[Steve Klc]

I think part of the confusion, Tom, is that the inside edible part of the bean is called the nib, whether the bean has been roasted or not. I don't think there is such a product as "whole unroasted cocoa nibs" available for sale--just internally within certain chocolate manufacturers who discard the shell first and then roast the nib. Whole unroasted beans are just that--beans; nibs are what's left after the shell, skin and debris have been removed. I have only tasted or seen roasted nibs for sale--Valrhona, El Rey, Cluizel, Guittard, Sharffen Berger--the best tasting of which were Cluizel (to me) but that's anecdotal over time and not compared side by side; the Cluizel probably came from the most skillful combination of beans and batch processing at that time.

I do have some experience with raw cocoa beans, though. This summer I led a few master classes at the American Museum of Natural History and asked Guittard to sign on as a sponsor. I proposed an idea to them, which they supported, and was able to get the same bean at various stages of processing and lead my groups through a progressive tasting: from unroasted raw bean (technically not edible) to roasted bean still in the shell (technically edible) to shelled nib to finished bar. We worked our way through 3 distinctive varieties in their line of 65% chocolates--and the beans which went into them: Columbia, Ecuador Nacional and the VZ Sur del Lago. But what stood out was the utter lack of flavor and nuance in the raw bean--yes, most of us risked eating the raw nib--somewhat bitter, somewhat astringent tasting but with basically no smell. I mean, you can learn this from reading books--but until you actually break open a raw partially dried and processed cocoa bean and taste it for yourself--taste this inertness and undeveloped character--you can't appreciate the truly transformative nature of the roasting process and its effect on the bean until you taste past the unroasted state to the roasted state of the same bean, which is where the chemical transformation becomes most noticeable. There's a real nice section on this in Beckett's paperback "The Science of Chocolate," by the way--a must have book if you plan to experiment further.

This Stoneandgiacomotto is new to me as well--and interesting--but it raises some initial questions. I had assumed, previously, that you couldn't buy at retail or re-sell raw cacao beans in the US because raw beans were, essentially, not yet an edible, inert or safe food product but an agricultural product which had yet to be treated--yet to be roasted--to remove possible bacteria. So how is it that S&G can sell "raw" cacao beans and in the same breath recommend snacking on them at home? I wonder if they're irradiating them--like spices or ground beef can be irradiated--and if so it's problematic because that process isn't disclosed anywhere on the site. Perhaps lots of these special beans aren't dried and raked on the ground and as a result are less susceptible to things like salmonella?

But in principle, Tom, it seems you can get what you want from S&G--roast the beans yourself in some makeshift apparatus, break each bean open individually to remove the nib from the shell by hand, and end up with fresh home-roasted nibs. Then you can grind them into something which resembles the icky, bitter, gritty pastes and home-made chocolates of Latin America--full of character and texture but not refinement or smoothness or the additional flavor enhancements which come from conching. And I think that's worth doing as an experiment. As we've mentioned on eG going way back it will be interesting to see if any professional chocolatiers actually start processing their own chocolate which in turn yields improved taste and a superior end product--something superior and/or more distinctive than how most chocolatiers use commercially manufactured chocolate. No doubt some blind tastings will be in order to determine if it amounts to much more than hype or a nice story.

We'll also have to keep in mind...unless these guys are skilled and knowledgeable in sourcing and handling raw beans through the fermentation and partial processing stages--there's no guarantee you've gotten a premium bean, which you've paid a pretty penny for, ready to be roasted. Next assume these guys either are skilled or they've merely struck a deal with a manufacturer like Guittard or Sharffen Berger to provide their raw flavor-grade beans which S&G turn around and re-sell--a middleman in other words so that you are actually buying the same beans going into the E. Guittard Sur del Lago--and in that case it is Guittard's experience and professionalism you're buying--well, even then, you still have to roast them with tools and technology vastly inferior to the task at hand and you still have to form that resulting mixture into an end product with tools and technology vastly inferior to the task at hand. Still very worth undertaking methinks as long as you're not measuring your end result against a fine commercial couverture--and if you're not intending to use your end product like one might a fine commercial couverture.

Even with their beans you absolutely cannot make the E. Guittard 65% Sur del Lago chocolate "at home," as S&G says on their website. That's disingenuous: there's a whole lot more skill and experience which goes into making chocolate of this caliber--you also can't (to date) grind, smooth or conch it comparably because you need expensive equipment. You can roast superior coffee at home, you can brew superior beer at home rather inexpensively--and get results which compare favorably if not surpass commercial products-- but you cannot make superior chocolate at home--as we know it commercially. So, what they should be saying is you can muck around with the same expensive beans at home, you can end up with something you can reasonably call chocolate, but they shouldn't imply more than that. Going back to coffee--you can roast a superior espresso blend at home but you cannot make a superior "espresso" beverage unless you have the ballpark $600 in equipment necessary to process those superior, impeccably fresh espresso beans into "espresso." The most you can do without the equipment is make a Moka or French press pot--very good coffee but not espresso.

This is from their website:

"our cacao beans bring the rich, complex flavor of chocolate to your cooking with out the added milkfat and sugar that the major manufacturers add to their chocolate."

This is only superficially truthful--since you can buy fine flavorful high percentage chocolates (85-100%) now and of course roasted nibs themselves to achieve the same thing. Also, to a large degree it is the roasting process itself which unlocks and develops the cocoa flavor--before roasting, flavor and nuance are just inherent in the bean. And even chocolate manufacturers, who supposedly have experience can roast and process poorly, which can muck up a good bean. Still, it wouldn't be the challenge it is if it were easy, if anyone could do it well.

The site continues "the cocoa flavor that is so divine is concentrated in our different beans giving each kind a unique flavor that can accent many dishes or desserts.   using cacao beans in your cooking will bring you closer to the source and place foods on your table that are more intriguing, full-flavored and that use ingredients you understand you can get the chocolate flavor without lechitin, polysorbate or other ridiculous, processed ingredients that manufacturers use to strengthen their bottom line at the expense of the flavor of your chocolate"

Cutting through the babble and misdirection, perhaps S&G is unaware lecithin is already "in" cocoa beans inherently which means small amounts of it will be "in" all chocolate anyway--even chocolate you make at home from their beans. Yes, most manufacturers add a small additional percentage of lecithin but usually not enough to affect taste--just flow, performance and stability. You know, so you can temper your chocolate when you need to and it stays shiny after if has been in your cabinet for a month. Let's also remember Cluizel went "au natural" and stopped adding any additional lecithin years ago anyway to grab the politically correct "no-GMO" crowd.

Commercial manufacturers will always be able to winnow, roast, grind and conch better than we ever can at home.

Lots of people draw analogies to coffee, beer or wine, some work, some don't. Making chocolate is not like making beer at home--beer doesn't require expensive equipment to grind or conch as chocolate does. Nor is it like home-roasting coffee--where freshness is a supreme issue and the number of days matter and translate into a superior end product. The added complication with chocolate is two tranformations--which makes it unique--you still have to turn the raw nib into chocolate--and then once you have chocolate you could eat it out of hand but most likely you have to transform it again, use it as an ingredient in the service of something greater--be it beverage, bon bon or bavarois. It would be like praising the artisinal hand-crafted small batch nature of a special wine--made from old vine grapes hand-picked on several passes on the side of a mountain which got just the right amount of a perfect microclimate--then careful, masterful processing and bottling to bring out the terroir, the fabulous potential vested in the grapes--then cracking open that bottle and COOKING with it, hoping to retain all that character as you heat it and mix in other ingredients and other flavors. Yeah, right.

All this leads in a roundabout way to this: I think this development, this new door opening before our eyes, is great. It just might force more people--in the media, in the biz and the general public--to get in touch with the real skills, expertise and COST behind chocolate making--and to better appreciate the different sets of skills behind what chocolatiers do to transform chocolate as an ingredient on their palate into a finished product like a bon bon or how pastry chefs transform chocolate on their palate into the larger whole of a finished dessert. Blind tasting of bar chocolate by supposed experts is only a mid-reach--in and of itself it doesn't really get you anywhere. It's discerning what to do with a particular kind of chocolate, sensing what translates into the final product and then being able to carry it out technically which are the real skills, where the real magic is found. And that appreciation can't be gleaned from reading any number of books.

And this just might open some doors of creativity because we'll now have recourse to a few new products--freshly roasted and painstakingly produced nibs--fresh homemade gritty versions of paste, mass and liquor--resembling those dried-out gritty shitty Central American home-grown chocolate balls you find in US markets but instead made fresh from flavor grade beans so they actually taste good. Now all we pastry chefs have to do is start figuring out how to take better advantage of this more flexible definition of chocolate, these new products--these less-refined, less commercial "chocolates"--and determine if this stuff actually allows us to create more interesting, more distinctive work. Then we can factor in the cost of our time and effort. Makes even $6 a pound for Valrhona or E. Guittard seem a bargain, doesn't it?

I'm really looking forward to it. Tom--maybe you'd like to buy some S&G beans and start your own blog here within eG pastry detailing your exploits?

[jeff29992001]

most cacao beans destined for America end up in warehouses in major cities like philadelphia, San Francisco, and esp. New York City. NYC is where the Board of Trade evaluates and sets the prices on cacao beans. but why is that with so many importers based here in NYC, nobody sells them retail????

is there any place (in the city) that sells beans to the public in small quantities?

does anybody have a list of importers that are based in NYC, as they are hard to locate using google?

note: not interested in non-NYC sources.

[thegreatdane]

Steve,

Thanks for your very thoughtful reply. Let me say, I don't expect to make high grade chocolate at home. In fact, I still marvel at the upper end chocolates I've tasted, and yearn to taste the many that I haven't. There are many.

Also, I don't expect my experiments to be anything like home beer making, which I've done with considerable success. Fresh unpasteurized beer is great, and processing beer ingredients is simpler than chocolate. I'm told one can even malt their own grain, though I haven't. As far as I can tell, the key difficulty in chocolate making, at least from the small producer's perspective, is conching. Fuggedaboutit. The similarity home chocolate making may have with home brewing, however, is in the ability to work with fresh basic quality ingredients, make a good product, whatever that may be and probably not anything that approaches the pros, and most important, get my hands into the beans themselves.

The best way I understand things is to get to the basics, ask basic questions, try things that are new to me, then attempt to build towards what the industry standards are, if possible, or to try new variations that occur to me. It's the latter area that holds the most promise for me. I agree that it will prove all but impossible to make high quality chocolate. So, I'll look into variations. You mentioned the coarser ground chocolates and the mixes for drinking chocolates, for example. Chocolate's been around for thousands of years, and I wonder what paths may not have been taken in its development, or may have been forgotten. I'm going to give it a try, if only for experimental and educational reasons.

In the meantime, I'll continue my education on chocolate, reading any books you or others might suggest, tasting the fine products already on the market which overwhelm me for our good fortune at having, and maybe if I'm lucky, actually visiting international chocolate plants, processors, small artisan producers, and chocolate plantations. It's an exciting world of chocolate out there, with new complex flavors, wonderful creations by chefs like you, and growing lively discussion. I anticipate with greater knowledge comes greater appreciation. In short, I'll always buy the great chocolates being made, but with greater knowledge and experience, and perhaps with good fortune, I'll discover something new, at least to me.

Thanks for your reply. Any suggestions for books or other sources of information would be greatly appreciated. I've read The True History of Chocolate, by Sophie D. Coe and Michael D. Coe, The New Taste of Chocolate, Maricel Presilla, and The Book of chocolate/Nathalie Bailleux [et al.]; Flammarion, c1996. Any other sources, other than the book you mentioned?

Many thanks,

Tom

[thegreatdane]

jeff29992001,

I would guess that the reason no one is selling raw beans is twofold; there is little to no perceived use for raw beans as yet, and perhaps more important, they don't want to deal with such small orders.

Please let us know what you find, however.

Tom

[PastryBoy]

just stopped by the food shop and picked up a small bag of cocoa nibs and can't wait to start experimenting. i'm thinking they'd be good in a dark choc shortbread/sablé or folded into ice creams for that hit of intense cocoa flavour.

does anyone have any favourite recipes / uses for cocoa nibs they'd like to share?

[chefseanbrock]

we use cocoa nibs as the bitter element in our dish

"ruby red grapefruit and the five parts of your tongue"

[JSkilling]

I like to get the pieces a bit smaller and use the over coffe gelato. I like them as the nut like element in a chocolate cookie and I like to snack on them!

[MsMelkor]

I add them to my almond biscotti.

[chezcherie]

on salads, like teeny little croutons.

[artisanbaker]

add them to products that are relatively sweet and in the mouth they will combine to have a powerful chocolate taste.

example:

meringues

nougatine

the biscotti idea is good since biscotti is usually pretty sweet.

[Melanger]

I use them to make nougatine tuiles. Also use them as a garnish on top of dipped coffee chocolates, they add a nice little crunch.

[jgarner53]

They are great in shorbread cookies, but I have to admit that i could probably just eat them out of hand (but don't because they're expensive!)

[McDuff]

use them to flavor panna cotta.

[bloviatrix]

I use them in ice cream.

Take a look at Alice Medrich's book Bittersweet. She has some savory recipes that incorporate the nibs including a mushroom dish.

[chocklateer]

I've used cocoa nibs in sugar cookie dough with espresso powder. I've also infused cream with cocoa nibs to make a yummy ice cream.

I like the idea of the nougatine with cocoa nibs: they would add a nice bitter edge to the sweetness of the caramelized sugar!

D.

[cacao]

Greetings,

I'm new here, but obviously I belong on this thread

This is what I like to do with cacao nibs:

http://splendidtable.publicradio.org/recip...rt_kekehi.shtml

But, I prefer my chocolate pretty strong, as I like my spice. The above recipe is quite suited to my tastes, as you will see!

-Cacao

[ludja]

Greetings,

I'm new here, but obviously I belong on this thread 

This is what I like to do with cacao nibs:

http://splendidtable.publicradio.org/recip...rt_kekehi.shtml

But, I prefer my chocolate pretty strong, as I like my spice. The above recipe is quite suited to my tastes, as you will see! 

-Cacao

←

Wow, that recipe is really wild! Have you actually made these? If so, what have you served them on? (grated, I guess)

Welcome to egullet by the way, looking forward to hearing more about your interest in chocolate!

Edited February 11, 2005 by ludja (log)

[chiantiglace]

Cocoa Nib Dacqouise

Mocha Cocoa Nib Souffle Glace

Almond Cocoa Nib Bark

Hazelnut Cocoa Nib Biscuit

Cocoa Nib Creme Caramel

Cocoa Nib Caramel Mousse

Banana and Cocoa Nib Chibouste

Praline Cocoa Nib Ice Cream

A lot of these flavor s are interchangeable of course.

[Wendy DeBord]

Welcome Cacao!

[Fernwood]

I've never noticed these in any of my usual markets (doesn't mean they're not there)... where do amateurs buy them?

Fern

[amclaud]

I've never noticed these in any of my usual markets (doesn't mean they're not there)... where do amateurs buy them?

Fern

If you have access to a Whole Foods, they should carry the Scharffen-Berger brand. This is by far my favorite brand. They come in much larger pieces and seem fresher than those from Vahlrona.

You can also buy them online at Scharffen-Berger

I think they were around $9 for a 6 ounce bag.

I also love the tips in Alice Medrich'sBittersweet -- her info on what types of baked good the nibs work in is really helpful.

[MsMelkor]

In California, they are relatively easy to find - lots of markets carry them. You can use Scharffen Berger's store locator to find out which stores carry their products, but many markets carry only their bars and not their cocoa nibs. You can also order online from them.

You might also find them at a natural foods store.