Morimoto in Phila vs NYC

serpentine · January 31, 2006

Since I dont know how to do this quoting stuff, here are your replies.

Yo, Vadovan. Copy and paste your text into the reply, highlight, hit the QUOTE button above the editing box.

A few points I'd like to throw into the discussion.

1) It's tacky to completely trash a restaurant if completely unfamiliar with the food. An article on the opening does not count as "familiarity." However, it's true that this isn't much of a foodie NYC event. (It is a Philly-relevant event, though.)

2) This isn't Italy. Batali is American. Especially considering the breadth of Italian food in Philly, it's silly to use "Italian-American" as a pejorative term. And no matter how fine Batali's technique or authentic his ingredients, this is a type of Italian-American food. Especially considering the cost of dining in his restaurants.

3) Not Italian-American does not necessary equal "like Babbo."

Edited January 31, 2006 by serpentine (log)

elicious · January 31, 2006

Just wanted to say thanks to philadining for his post above. I am totally in agreement and glad you so eloquently vocalized my feelings!

Edited January 31, 2006 by elicious (log)

menton1 · January 31, 2006

Even though some may not call Django a destination restaurant, I once drove from upstate NY just to dine there. Which was a 100 times better then Babbo.
And we all know how much New Yorkers love Babbo.
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That's just silly. I love Philadelphia, and think it has a lot of things New York doesn't have. (And vice-versa). But this is not a worthy comparison.

Django is a New American, serving creative and innovative cuisine. Babbo is trying to bring a sampling of what is actually served in Italy to an American restaurant. Lots of offal. Lots of things Americans don't normally eat. And it's about 8 times larger than Django. Just apples and oranges.

It's nice to sing the praises of Philly, but let's not get into a mindless Sports-team mode, or the like.

Vadouvan · January 31, 2006

I am not using the term "Italian- American" as a pejorative, merely to seperate more authentic from less authentic.

Perhaps you should take a trip to philly so you can understand what I am saying. The food in Batali's places (esp) Babbo/Lupa is much closer to "Italy" than what I eat at typical BYO's in Philly.

The term "Italian American" is widely used by expariate Italian friends in NY.

I never said "not Italian American means Babbo".

Jeff I agree that some of the food in his places is very good, in fact i had that sweetbread special too...Bay scallops , Orange brown butter.....YUM.

Lechon at ALMA

Soup at Morimoto....

I have no prob with Starr, just wondering why people who dont go in the first place do ?

Mummer · January 31, 2006

I'll bet the food's awful at Buca di Babbo...

And such large portions, too!

robert40 · January 31, 2006

Even though some may not call Django a destination restaurant, I once drove from upstate NY just to dine there. Which was a 100 times better then Babbo.
And we all know how much New Yorkers love Babbo.
←
That's just silly. I love Philadelphia, and think it has a lot of things New York doesn't have. (And vice-versa). But this is not a worthy comparison.
Django is a New American, serving creative and innovative cuisine. Babbo is trying to bring a sampling of what is actually served in Italy to an American restaurant. Lots of offal. Lots of things Americans don't normally eat. And it's about 8 times larger than Django. Just apples and oranges.
It's nice to sing the praises of Philly, but let's not get into a mindless Sports-team mode, or the like.
←

I do believe I already explained myself as to not taking my statement seriously.

I agree it is apples and oranges but it still don't change the fact that I enjoyed Django more. I am only comparing my preference. I will give the benifit of the doubt to Babbo and give it another try one day but at least I didn't have a twelve inch hair included in my pasta at Django.

Carry on...

stephenc · January 31, 2006

Paradiso's menu has some of the same stuff as that Babboganoush restaurant that keeps getting mentioned.

It's got the tripe, octopus,rabbit, short ribs, sweetbreads, branzino and osso bucco.

Edited January 31, 2006 by stephenc (log)

menton1 · January 31, 2006

RobertR, where in NY State are you? Do you know the Depuy Canal House in High Falls? Might be a shorter ride than Philly for you, and a very very good resto...

robert40 · January 31, 2006

RobertR, where in NY State are you? Do you know the Depuy Canal House in High Falls? Might be a shorter ride than Philly for you, and a very very good resto...
←

Yes I have but not recently. Really nice restaurant that I need to get back to.

herbacidal · February 1, 2006

Actually, I'm wondering if Babbo is Vetri done in a larger place.

Or if Vetri is Babbo done in a smaller place.

Having been to neither, it's been unfair of me to go much further, but if Philly Mag can be believed (which is sometimes true and sometimes not) Batali and Vetri get along famously and are great friends.

robert40 · February 1, 2006

Actually, I'm wondering if Babbo is Vetri done in a larger place.
Or if Vetri is Babbo done in a smaller place.
Having been to neither, it's been unfair of me to go much further, but if Philly Mag can be believed (which is sometimes true and sometimes not) Batali and Vetri get along famously and are great friends.
←

I read once that after having dinner at Vetri one night Batali supposily wrote in the guest book "Great #&*%$^Dinner. :laugh:

serpentine · February 1, 2006

I am not using the term "Italian- American" as a pejorative, merely to seperate more authentic from less authentic.
Perhaps you should take a trip to philly so you can understand what I am saying. The food in Batali's places (esp) Babbo/Lupa is much closer to "Italy" than what I eat at typical BYO's in Philly.
The term "Italian American" is widely used by expariate Italian friends in NY.
I never said "not Italian American means Babbo".

Vadouvan, I live in South Philly and know the restaurants well. Please note that my entire post was not directed to you specifically; my comments were directed to the discussion at large.

Edited February 1, 2006 by serpentine (log)

MarketStEl · February 1, 2006

Say What ?
←

Philadining elaborated on the point I was trying to make quite nicely, but I see in retrospect that I was replying to a post at one remove. I should have tacked my comments directly onto sneakereater's.

MarketStEl · February 1, 2006

I have no prob with Starr, just wondering why people who dont go in the first place do ?
←

Probably for the same reasons people rant about "smooth jazz."

But these people probably have encountered Kenny G at some point.

docsconz · February 1, 2006

I have no prob with Starr, just wondering why people who dont go in the first place do ?
←
Probably for the same reasons people rant about "smooth jazz."
But these people probably have encountered Kenny G at some point.
←

It's funny, but for all the defense of Starr on this and other recent topics, I haven't read too many ringing endorsements of the restaurants other than some people having some good meals at some of them and explanations as to why they are successful. That they are successful is not the issue, so is McDonalds. He is obviously savvy and a very good businessman, however, between reading the comments about the restaurants by his "supporters" and my own one negative experience at Buddakan, is it any wonder that I won't be beating down the doors to go back to them or open the ones in NYC? Mind you, I am not saying that they won't be financially successful or even put out decent food. They probably will, but unless I begin reading about the greatness of the food as opposed to how "cool" the restaurants are, I could simply care less. While I don't mind a good scene, I don't go to restaurants for that. My time in places like NYC or Philadelphia is limited enough that I try to choose the restaurants I go to very carefully and generally only go to those that excite me for one reason or another.

Vadouvan · February 1, 2006

Morning doc...i see your point.

Wish I had parents like you when I was growing up who took thier kids to WD 50... :smile:

Ayways I am bored with the Starr/Morimoto/NY/Philly thing and i will leave with this....

Regarding the Jazz analogies...

Let the chips fall where they may....

The Rants on "smooth Jazz" are justified because it is extremely annoying to hear people express deep knowledge and appreciation for the art from without a clue as to its origins...

"I am really into jazz, I like David Sanborn and Kelly G"

Who is Keith Jarett ...... :huh:

how about Thelonious Monk......... :blink:

Uh..........Charlie Mingus.......... :unsure:

Rahsaan roland Kirk......... :sad:

Smooth Jazz is kinda like saying...

"I am a vegetarian but I love Sushi"

For clarity.....pet peeve #2 is people who eat seafood and call themselves vegetarians.

You are not a vegetarian if you eat anything with eyes or a bivalve.

Wrong side of the bed today....

Yaaallllll have a nice day.

shacke · February 1, 2006

For clarity.....pet peeve #2 is people who eat seafood and call themselves vegetarians.
You are not a vegetarian if you eat anything with eyes or a bivalve.
←

Headless shrimp? Lobster tails? Nyuk Nyuk :biggrin:

I believe the nouveau phrase for such fishmongers is "pescatarian" Seems to give a niche to the veggie netherworlders.

You know what they say.... If animals weren't meant to be eaten, they wouldn't be made out of meat.

Evan

Sneakeater · February 1, 2006

I have no prob with Starr, just wondering why people who dont go in the first place do ?
←
Probably for the same reasons people rant about "smooth jazz."
←

Hey, that's exactly right!

philadining · February 1, 2006

It's funny, but for all the defense of Starr on this and other recent topics, I haven't read too many ringing endorsements of the restaurants other than some people having some good meals at some of them and explanations as to why they are successful.
←

That's a good point Doc, and as one of Starr's "defenders" (he doesn't need my help, really...) I have hedged a bit mostly because I could see how people could end up with so-so meals at many of the places.

I however will unequivocally say that I have had fantastic meals at Morimoto, Tangerine, Blue Angel, Alma de Cuba, El Vez, Pod and Striped Bass (under Christopher Lee). No caveats, not just a couple of good things here or there, or not good considering the group, or pretty decent for Philly. No reservations about the endorsement: all-out really terrific meals. I've had plenty of good dishes at some other spots. So at least in my experience, it's entirely possible to have a really satisfying meal purely from the cuisine side, even if you were blindfolded and earplugged...

Now, how this will translate to NY - we'll just have to wait and see. He has very good chefs working at both places in NY. He had very talented chefs consulting on Buddakan NY. Whether that talent makes it to the plate, or gets lost in the crush of such big, scenster places, again, we'll see. But it absolutely has been my experience that in Philly, sometimes that kitchen talent does shine through the moody lighting.

MarketStEl · February 1, 2006

Morning doc...i see your point.
Wish I had parents like you when I was growing up who took thier kids to WD 50...

Is it really that much better than WD-40?

(ducks to avoid being hit by a pile of brickbats)

Ayways I am bored with the Starr/Morimoto/NY/Philly thing and i will leave with this....
Regarding the Jazz analogies...
Let the chips fall where they may....
The Rants on "smooth Jazz" are justified because it is extremely annoying to hear people express deep knowledge and appreciation for the art from without a clue as to its origins...
"I am really into jazz, I like David Sanborn and Kelly G"
Who is Keith Jarett ......
how about Thelonious Monk.........
Uh..........Charlie Mingus..........
Rahsaan roland Kirk.........
Smooth Jazz is kinda like saying...
"I am a vegetarian but I love Sushi"
←

um, thanks for the clarification.

Actually, I chose the wrong analogy for my Starr comparison from my own perspective.

Or maybe not. I think Kenny G is devoid of real talent, but I do listen to "smooth jazz" a lot. However, that's mainly because (1) I never really cottoned to hip-hop (2) Philadelphia's one real jazz radio station plays classical music from 6 am to 6 pm and has absolutely crappy signal reception in Center City and (3) I don't necessarily feel like engaging with a classic like Coltrane's "A Love Supreme" all the time; sometimes I would rather have background music to which I can put my brain in park or use it for some other pursuit.

Maybe the analogy is more apt than I thought. Hmmmm...Stephen Starr as the culinary equivalent of smooth jazz?

Vadouvan · February 1, 2006

The WD 40 comment is pointless.

Its really humorless when people continue it since WD 50 opened 5 years ago now ???

docsconz · February 1, 2006

It's funny, but for all the defense of Starr on this and other recent topics, I haven't read too many ringing endorsements of the restaurants other than some people having some good meals at some of them and explanations as to why they are successful.
←
That's a good point Doc, and as one of Starr's "defenders" (he doesn't need my help, really...) I have hedged a bit mostly because I could see how people could end up with so-so meals at many of the places.
I however will unequivocally say that I have had fantastic meals at Morimoto, Tangerine, Blue Angel, Alma de Cuba, El Vez, Pod and Striped Bass (under Christopher Lee). No caveats, not just a couple of good things here or there, or not good considering the group, or pretty decent for Philly. No reservations about the endorsement: all-out really terrific meals. I've had plenty of good dishes at some other spots. So at least in my experience, it's entirely possible to have a really satisfying meal purely from the cuisine side, even if you were blindfolded and earplugged...
Now, how this will translate to NY - we'll just have to wait and see. He has very good chefs working at both places in NY. He had very talented chefs consulting on Buddakan NY. Whether that talent makes it to the plate, or gets lost in the crush of such big, scenster places, again, we'll see. But it absolutely has been my experience that in Philly, sometimes that kitchen talent does shine through the moody lighting.
←

Notice I didn't say any ringing endordements! :laugh:

Throughout this discussion, I haven't been out to trash Starr or his restaurants. My experience with them is simply too limited. There is also nothing wrong with a restaurant being set up for people to relax, enjoy themselves and feel like they are having a special time. All the best restaurants do that. There is also nothing wrong with restaurants making a profit :shock: I wish more of my favorites would :wink:

I guess one reason that I am not all that excited about these restaurants is because I see them as personifications of the Disneyization of culture. (How's that for a new word - Disneyization? :laugh: ) I'd rather have restaurants with individual character than cookie-cutter formulae, especially formulae that tend to homogenize and sugar-coat culture. Now maybe I am all wrong about these restaurants whether they are in philly or NYC. I hope so and if I am I will happily change my tune about them.

The fact that the names Morimoto and Buddakan will not have changed even though the interiors of the restaurants and the food itself may be different is significant to me. It is a bit too calculated and cold for my taste. If they are indeed sufficiently different restaurants and concepts they should be labeled accordingly. Perhaps I am being a bit too naive or even a bit too idealistic here (ironic for a NYer :wink: ), but my time and my dollars only go so far and I prefer to spend them in and on places with more direct appeal to me.

Ironically as well, I think a lot of my cynicism (ok, which is it idealism or cynicism? :rolleyes: What can I say, I grew up in Brooklyn :laugh: ) also stems from the fact that I have also been pretty disappointed with Nobu in NY.

philadining · February 1, 2006

I can understand keeping Morimoto as a name, it would be tough to change that one.

But I agree that the importation of the Buddakan name and concept is a little surprising, given that NY already has a big Buddha restaurant.

Starr is usually really good at coming up with catchy, evocative names. Even when they're corny, they work, communicating the vibe and sticking in your head. It's too bad they didn't just come up with a new name/concept for NY. I'm sure that would have eliminated some of the suspicion that the NY version will be just a retread.

docsconz · February 1, 2006

I can understand keeping Morimoto as a name, it would be tough to change that one.
But I agree that the importation of the Buddakan name and concept is a little surprising, given that NY already has a big Buddha restaurant.
Starr is usually really good at coming up with catchy, evocative names. Even when they're corny, they work, communicating the vibe and sticking in your head. It's too bad they didn't just come up with a new name/concept for NY. I'm sure that would have eliminated some of the suspicion that the NY version will be just a retread.
←

I suppose I can understand the Morimoto name as well, although it still bothers me for the reasons I already discussed. Then again, Nobu and masa both had differrent names in their original locations, I believe.

If Buddakan NY had a different name it would certainly have an easier time making its own identity, no doubt. I probably would not have become quite as involved in this discussion either! :laugh:

MarketStEl · February 1, 2006

I guess one reason that I am not all that excited about these restaurants is because I see them as personifications of the Disneyization of culture. (How's that for a new word - Disneyization? )

I've seen a similar term -- "Disneyfication" -- in print before.

I'd rather have restaurants with individual character than cookie-cutter formulae, especially formulae that tend to homogenize and sugar-coat culture. Now maybe I am all wrong about these restaurants whether they are in philly or NYC. I hope so and if I am I will happily change my tune about them.
The fact that the names Morimoto and Buddakan will not have changed even though the interiors of the restaurants and the food itself may be different is significant to me. It is a bit too calculated and cold for my taste. If they are indeed sufficiently different restaurants and concepts they should be labeled accordingly. Perhaps I am being a bit too naive or even a bit too idealistic here (ironic for a NYer ), but my time and my dollars only go so far and I prefer to spend them in and on places with more direct appeal to me.
Ironically as well, I think a lot of my cynicism (ok, which is it idealism or cynicism? What can I say, I grew up in Brooklyn ) also stems from the fact that I have also been pretty disappointed with Nobu in NY.
←

Having seen the interim posts between the time I started this reply and now, I understand the part about nomenclature getting under your skin. Thomas Keller didn't call his New York restaurant "The French Laundry," so Starr giving the same name to his New York and Philly outposts smacks of chainitis. I'll bet you also cringe whenever you hear someone use the word "branding."

But I will use it here anyway, for that is exactly what Starr is doing here. Morimoto NYC and Morimoto Philly may be two different animals in many respects, but both are trading off the reputation of the "brand" Masaharu Morimoto. Starr is evidently also trying to turn Buddakan (which, if I'm not mistaken, first entered American English when pop/rock/jazz superstars played the Tokyo concert hall of the same name; as Starr was a rock concert promoter before he was a restaurateur, it may be more appropriate than all of us could imagine that his second hit restaurant bore this name) into a brand as well.

Disneyfication/Disneyization? Perhaps, as Starr indeed sells fantasies to his diners. But it's camp fantasy in most cases, a far cry from the Disney version.

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