Immersion circulators for tempering chocolate

[tb86]

i have recently been using circulators for tempering chocolate, with good results, i have 2 more circulators on the way, and i am planning on setting up a system that will eliminate the need for tableing the chocolate the set up i am currently goes like this:

i chop all the chocolate, add spices to infuse if needed, then cryovac them

i then set one circulator at 45c for plantations chocolates / 56 for valronah, place the bags in the water with a thermal probe inserted into the bag through a weather strip to prevent water contamination, i then allow the chocolate to reach max temp required on the temper curve.

at this point i am currently dropping to the lowest pint on a marble counter top manualy

then the chocolate is re sealed in cryo bags and held at 32 in another circulator until needed

now that i will have more circulators i want to set up a third waterbath set at 28c to be used in between the melting and holding, in theory this will work, any ideas?????

[Trishiad]

Submerging chocolate in water just freaks me out. Weather stripping or not, freaks me out.

This set up is creative and sounds good in theory. It does, however ignore that fact that temper is not ALL about temperature. Even though I use machinery to temper my chocolate I do adjust the temperatures occasionally when the ribbons don't look right. With water baths and sealed chocolate you don't really have that luxury.

[tan319]

I think this is a cool idea although I'm sort of with Trishiad about water and ribbon, etc.

I hope you'll report your results, many of us will be interested.!

[akwa]

its interesting that you mention this idea

and very clever

i was wondering why you couldnt just put a shallow hotel in the circulator to hold chocolat a point indefinitely;

wg

[alanamoana]

again with the ribbon, wybauw certainly expresses the necessity of temperature and agitation for proper beta crystal formation.

[tb86]

ok so i have been working on tempering with the circulators for a lilttle while now, some mistakes , some failures, but finallly i am seeing great results, i have changed the process a bit though and made some cool discoveries, so now we are cryo sealing whole bars or pistoles and adding spices such as saffron or tonka bean, smoked maldon sea salt ect. and allow them to come to temprature over a period of five to six hours plus at 45c for plantations chocolate, 58 for valhrona to allow the flavoring to permeate through out the chocolate, the advantage to this process is that i can begin the tempering process for multiple flavored chocolate/ percentages in one water bath as opposed to multiple water baths that need constant attention and temp control.

the next stage is traditional tabeling, re sealing into cryo bags and storing in a american scientific water bath until it is needed for work, .

a new technique for making ganaches has been discovered, through these tests , we now seal all of our chocolate, cream , sugars , spices and whatever else is needed in cryo bgs and heat to desired tempratures. there are several benifits we have found with this technique, we can infuse flavor into our ganaches for hours with out any water evaporating from the creams in the ganaches, the ability to use low tempratures also allows us to produce intensely flavored ganaches without the fear of killing flavors with high tempratures, ie thyme. also the ability to make ganaches with temprature sensitive ingrediants such as yogurt, buttermilk, to a lesser extent creme fraiche and other ingrediants, but we can also keep these ganaches at perfect tempratures for filling bonbons for extended periods of time with no worries.

any ideas ?? just playing around, never know what we will find

i'll post some pics of the process and some of the products that we are getting out of the process

[Kerry Beal]

ok so i have been working on tempering with the circulators for a lilttle while now, some mistakes , some failures, but finallly i am seeing great results, i have changed the process a bit though and made some cool discoveries, so  now we are cryo sealing whole bars or pistoles and adding spices such as saffron or tonka bean, smoked maldon sea salt ect. and allow them to come to temprature over a period of five to six hours plus at 45c for plantations chocolate, 58 for valhrona to allow the flavoring to permeate through out the chocolate, the advantage to this process is that i can begin the tempering process for multiple flavored chocolate/ percentages in one water bath as opposed to multiple water baths that need constant attention and temp control.

the next stage is traditional tabeling, re sealing into cryo bags and storing in a american scientific water bath until it is needed for work, .

a new technique for making ganaches has been discovered, through these tests , we now seal all of our chocolate, cream , sugars , spices and whatever else is needed in cryo bgs and heat to desired tempratures. there are several benifits we have found with this technique, we can infuse flavor into our ganaches for hours  with out any water evaporating from the creams in the ganaches, the ability to use low tempratures also allows us to produce intensely flavored ganaches without the fear of killing flavors with high tempratures, ie thyme. also the ability to make ganaches with temprature sensitive ingrediants such as yogurt, buttermilk, to a lesser extent creme fraiche and other ingrediants, but we can also keep these ganaches at perfect tempratures for filling bonbons for extended periods of time with no worries.

any ideas ??  just playing around, never know what we will find

i'll post some pics of the process and some of the products that we are getting out of the process

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Chocolate sous vide!

[schneich]

what about direct tempering in a water bath, so there is no need for agitation since the beta crystals are never lost.... did anyone try this, it would just need one circulator. also if you always use the same amount of choc per bag, you would only need to "probe" a bag once, cause afterwards you know how long it takes to come to 32c

cheers

t.

Edited June 26, 2007 by schneich (log)

[Kerry Beal]

Hey, check out this course at the French Pastry School in Chicago. Combining chocolate and sous vide.

[David J.]

It sounds interesting. I don't know how much more I have to learn about making ganache, but a class at the FPS makes a great learning vacation. Too bad a vacuum equiped Robot Coupe runs over $3K US minus the pump.

How much of an advantage does vacuum mixing give?

[Kerry Beal]

It sounds interesting.  I don't know how much more I have to learn about making ganache, but a class at the FPS makes a great learning vacation.  Too bad a vacuum equiped Robot Coupe runs over $3K US minus the pump.

How much of an advantage does vacuum mixing give?

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I have no idea how much longer your vacuum mixed ganaches would live, but I've seen the vacuum mixers on e-bay for a more reasonable price than 3 grand.

[ejw50]

It sounds interesting.  I don't know how much more I have to learn about making ganache, but a class at the FPS makes a great learning vacation.  Too bad a vacuum equiped Robot Coupe runs over $3K US minus the pump.

How much of an advantage does vacuum mixing give?

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I have no idea how much longer your vacuum mixed ganaches would live, but I've seen the vacuum mixers on e-bay for a more reasonable price than 3 grand.

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A lot of the ones I see (dental mixers) have only 500 mL capacities. Only a few of them have 1500 mL capacities. The blades look different from the Stephan mixer blades.

I guess I"m a little hesitant to spend 1k on a vacuum mixer without knowing for sure it's better. I mean if I bought a real Stephan mixer it would probably be better, but not sure about the lower-cost dental alternatives.

Edited December 18, 2007 by ejw50 (log)

[David J.]

I'm tempted to see if I could build one using an immersion blender and a modified vacuum jar.

[chiantiglace]

good luck, but from what I know about chocolate and fat crystals, you take away the agitation it will not work.

The fat crystals need the agitation to form, the more the agitation the better. When the chocolate melts, no matter how slowly, it is seperating from the cocoa solids, forming larger deposits of fatty elements. The only way to keep this from happening is constant agitation, no slow cooking.

Like I said, good luck. But if there was a gambling pool on this one, I would throw fifty in on 'it aint gonna happen'.

[David J.]

good luck, but from what I know about chocolate and fat crystals, you take away the agitation it will not work.

The fat crystals need the agitation to form, the more the agitation the better.  When the chocolate melts, no matter how slowly, it is seperating from the cocoa solids, forming larger deposits of fatty elements.  The only way to keep this from happening is constant agitation, no slow cooking.

Like I said, good luck.  But if there was a gambling pool on this one, I would throw fifty in on 'it aint gonna happen'.

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I'm talking about the class where tempered chocolate is added to to Robot Coupe along with the boiling cream, then the vacuum applied and the blade started. My cheap version would do the same thing, just have a smaller blade.

But then I'm not sure you need to blend in a vacuum anyway. If you use an immersion blender so as not to add any air in the blending process and apply a vacuum after the blending you should be able to draw any existing air out fairly cheaply. I know that relatively thick silicone rubber is treated this way for mold making and that is as thick or thicker than any ganache. I spotted a webpage detailing the use of a pump with ridgid Rival vacuum food containers for just such a project.

That would be a relatively cheap way to try extending your shelf life.

[John DePaula]

good luck, but from what I know about chocolate and fat crystals, you take away the agitation it will not work.

The fat crystals need the agitation to form, the more the agitation the better.  When the chocolate melts, no matter how slowly, it is seperating from the cocoa solids, forming larger deposits of fatty elements.  The only way to keep this from happening is constant agitation, no slow cooking.

Like I said, good luck.  But if there was a gambling pool on this one, I would throw fifty in on 'it aint gonna happen'.

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I'm talking about the class where tempered chocolate is added to to Robot Coupe along with the boiling cream, then the vacuum applied and the blade started. My cheap version would do the same thing, just have a smaller blade.

But then I'm not sure you need to blend in a vacuum anyway. If you use an immersion blender so as not to add any air in the blending process and apply a vacuum after the blending you should be able to draw any existing air out fairly cheaply. I know that relatively thick silicone rubber is treated this way for mold making and that is as thick or thicker than any ganache. I spotted a webpage detailing the use of a pump with ridgid Rival vacuum food containers for just such a project.

That would be a relatively cheap way to try extending your shelf life.

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I have no direct experience with vacuum mixing of ganaches, but FWIW I hear that it makes for a very dry ganache.

[alanamoana]

To be honest, while I can see some benefit to using these methods...ultimately, if you're running your own small business, you're going to be filling piping bags and doing things with your hands which might negate the small benefit of making the ganaches under vacuum...correct?

Why not just stick to small batches with low water activity and call it a day? Might these other techniques come in handy when dealing with an industrial volume environment?

Not that I'm saying one shouldn't learn about them and understand the benefits, etc. Just my 2 cents.

[David J.]

Might these other techniques come in handy when dealing with an industrial volume environment?

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One might think so, but the class description leads me to believe it is aimed at the professional pastry chef looking to expand into chocolate rather than somone looking to work on an industrial scale. As such, the chef thinks it's of some value.

I don't need it at present since my stuff gets consumed far before any expiration date, but it's interesting and possibly usefull for the future.

[chiantiglace]

I love new ideas and new techniques for making excellent products, but this might just be an unescessary step.

[schneich]

after six month of intense chocolate learning i must second that you cant get a good temper without agitation. if you dont agitate enough you get streaky results; even though it doesnt matter to me that much anymore since i am the lucky owner of a selmi workstation that does all the tempering for me ;-)

but it takes quite some time for the solids to seperate from the butter (i usually have some large bowls of chocolate in my warming cabinet and it takes a week or so to grow an oilslick on the surface)

also i dont see the point of spending thousands of $$$ to buy a vacuum mixer since mixing in vacuum doesnt buy you more shelf life or anything else. if you arent equipped with two left hands you should suffice with ya olde stick blender (which btw. is only 50 $ or so;-)

cheers

t.

[ejw50]

"But then I'm not sure you need to blend in a vacuum anyway. If you use an immersion blender so as not to add any air in the blending process and apply a vacuum after the blending you should be able to draw any existing air out fairly cheaply. I know that relatively thick silicone rubber is treated this way for mold making and that is as thick or thicker than any ganache. I spotted a webpage detailing the use of a pump with ridgid Rival™ vacuum food containers for just such a project."

I've tried this with a foodsaver. In my experiment, I accidently incorporated air into my ganache, which was better for the experiment anyway.

It didn't work so well for me because the foodsaver vacuum wasn't strong enough. That is, I was able to get a few bubbles to the surface, but the bubbles did not 'pop' because vacuum was too weak. Maybe the experiment would have worked with agitation or a stronger vacuum.

I have tried chocolates made under vacuum,and thought they tasted great. Torres uses a vacuum mixer.

ON the web somewhere, Pierre Herme has a recipe for Ispahan ganache. He uses a Stephan mixer and specifies to cool the outside with cold water while mixing (much as you would do for a Creme Anglaise or pastry cream + ice cube water bath). I suspect the speed of cooling is a plus of doing things this way.

I would also suspect some of the reason some pros use it is what schneich said - immersion blending but without fear of accidently blending in a ton of air.

Edited December 19, 2007 by ejw50 (log)

[schneich]

it seems to me that the "big" chefs like torres and herme make a fuzz out of everything. since they dont care about how much money something costs they have it.

the only reason i could imagine buying vacuum blender is if you want to do do large amounts of cake glazing. to get a perfect result you must get rid of every air bubble. of course you could also mix it with a stick and then throw it in a commercial vacuum sealer to suck out the bubbles ;-)

cheers

t.

[David J.]

... of course you could also mix it with a stick and then throw it in a commercial vacuum sealer to suck out the bubbles ;-)

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That's what I speculated in an earlier post. It would be relatively inexpensive (compared to buying a vacuum mixer) to build a vacuum chamber out of a food saver jar and pump.

To be really effective though you would probably need to purchase a special pump that could get down to 28-29 inches of mercury. I don't think the food saver pumps can generate a deep enough vacuum to fully degass a thick ganache or frosting.

I just ordered Jean-Pierre Wybauw's second "Fine Chocolates" book, this one focusing on ganache. It's supposed to have a technical section including ganaches created under vacuum so I'm hoping he will have some scientific answers to the question of what it buys you.

[ejw50]

Right. My foodsaver vacuum was too weak to get the air out of the ganache. You need something stronger. I was a little disappointed because I purchased the foodsaver containers just for testing that.

Is JPW's new book out? I remember that you mentioned he would have one. Is it widely available yet?

Edited December 21, 2007 by ejw50 (log)

[alanamoana]

Is JPW's new book out?  I remember that you mentioned he would have one. Is it widely available yet?

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it's at C.H.I.P.S. books, pre-order from Amazon (US) and Amazon (CA) from what i can tell. Amazon (US) doesn't have a price yet. There's a thread started in the cookbook forum.