Zagat New York 2006

[menton1]

Thought I'd bring this thread back to the top, because we were actually discussing this topic at length, but on a thread that was supposed to be devoted to another topic... (Perhaps those relevant posts can be moved here)

Starbucks no more belongs in Zagat than it belongs in Michelin. Zagat claims to be a restaurant listing. I know they used to have Boston market in there for a few years, and now that is gone. It's not even that people vote for a place, it's getting listed on their ballot. "Write-ins" have about as much a chance of getting voted in as do a write in for UIS President; The other process in question is that the votes are tallied in secrecy by Zagat, not a third party, so the veracity of the results are in question as well.

As far as DeMarchelier, it is packed every night, 7 nights a week, and is a long-established restaurant. It's absence from the Zagat listings (and surely the ballot) is certainly conspicuous. And I'm sure there are many others examples.

And sure, Zagat is laughing all the way to the bank, because there is little outrage, except on Eg.

[oakapple]

As the resident Zagat apologist, I wouldn't want to disappoint those (both of you) who were expecting a response.

Zagat lists about four times the number of restaurants as Michelin. I think you'll find that every restaurant in Michelin is in Zagat, which then adds another 1,500 or so that Michelin didn't touch. Taking the two publications on their own terms, naturally some things belong in Zagat that don't belong in Michelin.

Zagat has a coffeehouse category, which Michelin does not. I suppose one could make a valid argument that coffeehouses shouldn't be listed in Zagat, although with 2,000+ entries I don't really see where it's a fatal flaw to include that category. Well, if coffeehouses are in Zagat, I don't see where it's a fatal flaw to include Starbucks, which is merely the most ubiquitous coffeehouse franchise there is.

The other process in question is that the votes are tallied in secrecy by Zagat, not a third party, so the veracity of the results are in question as well.

Despite that apparent flaw, there's a remarkable confluence in what Zagat lists as the top restaurants, and what every other media site lists as the top restaurants. Most ratings on Zagat are believable, given the numerous obvious methodological problems with the survey. There's no reason to attribute to dishonesty what incompetence can explain. Yet, despite their problems, the places Zagat puts at the top of the heap are awfully close to what other media have come up with.

As far as DeMarchelier, it is packed every night, 7 nights a week, and is a long-established restaurant.  It's absence from the Zagat listings (and surely the ballot) is certainly conspicuous.  And I'm sure there are many others examples. 

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Estimates of the number of restaurants in New York City range as high 17,000 to 23,000. This means that Zagat could be omitting up to 90% of the restaurants. Undoubtedly, many of those 90% have their devoted fans. I mean, they're in business, so somebody's patronizing them. The fact that you can identify omissions is unsurprising. Indeed, perhaps 9 out of every 10 restaurants you pass on the street aren't in Zagat.

What I think you cannot say, is that there are "important" restaurants missing from Zagat. Define "important" any sensible way you want, but it can't be merely "People in the neighborhood love it." It doesn't show malicious intent that some popular neighborhood places in a 20,000-restaurant town aren't in Zagat.

Another example offered (on the other thread) was Bandol Bistro. A spot-check of on-line restaurant guides demonstrated that about half listed it, and half did not. I didn't find any that had rated it (a star, an 'editor's choice', or the like). Unless we are to conclude that there's a grand conspiracy against poor old Bandol Bistro, the logical conclusion is that it's an ordinary happy little place that is known in its neighborhood, but that much of the rest of the dining community simply hasn't noticed. There's hardly much grist for a grand Zagat scandal there.

Edited November 9, 2005 by oakapple (log)

[BryanZ]

While I don't consider myself a Zagat apologist (I doubt oakapple does either), the guide is a good reference. It does not claim to list every restaurant, nor does it say that it's rating system is the most accurate. The only compile the views of 30,000 diners in a very simplistic 0-3 scale. As I've stated before, Zagat is a survey company, they collect data and information. They're not perfect in their ratings, but the company is not to blame for that. Blame the people who insist on calling Union Sq. Cafe one of the best restaurants in the city.

[menton1]

Well, of course they wouldn't let there be a huge disparity between their survey and the resto's reputation-- that would raise too many eyebrows. But if they are so sincere, why wouldn't they give over the survey and its tally to a 3rd impartial party? They surely have the resources to do that now! (Is Arthur Andersen available?)

Edited November 10, 2005 by menton1 (log)

[BryanZ]

They do most everything in house to the best of my knowledge. You have to keep in mind they have a system that works, one that's applied to restaurants, hotels, golf courses, airlines, retails stores, etc. For them to outsource one of their guides and use an 3rd party would be counterintuitive and would undermine their reputation (which many still trust). Granted, I think the system itself is stupid, but it sells their books.

[Pan]

menton1, if the worst thing that could be said about Zagat is that they list (merely list, don't recommend) Starbucks, their book would be a lot better than it is.

oakapple, have you recently checked how many restaurants in the "Outer Boroughs" are listed in Zagat? I haven't checked since I decided not to participate in their survey anymore (and, thereby, not get a free copy of the resulting publication), but I used to note a truly amazing level of omissions on geographic bases.

[oakapple]

Oakapple, have you recently checked how many restaurants in the "Outer Boroughs" are listed in Zagat? I haven't checked since I decided not to participate in their survey anymore (and, thereby, not get a free copy of the resulting publication), but I used to note a truly amazing level of omissions on geographic bases.

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By my count, Zagat 2006 has 312 outer borough restaurants out of 2,098 listed. Obviously, like Michelin, it is primarily a Manhattan guide. This isn't exactly surprising news, and I suspect one would find a similar breakdown in any New York City restaurant guide.

The outer borough neighborhoods with the most Zagat listings are Park Slope (43), and then Williamsburg (17). The entirety of Staten Island has just 16 listings; the Bronx just 25. Even Manhattan neighborhoods that are perceived to be "on the fringe" have minimal coverage. Just 8 restaurants are listed in "Washington Heights & Up," which is a very substantial area. There are just 20 combined in East Harlem or Harlem, another very substantial area.

In contrast, there are 193 restaurants listed in Greenwich Village, along with 127 in the East village. Thus, over 15% of the restaurants in the guide are in the East & West Village. The only other neighborhoods with over 100 listings are the West 40s (117) and the West 50s (125).

Again, I don't think this is surprising, and any NYC restaurant guide would likely do the same.

[menton1]

menton1, if the worst thing that could be said about Zagat is that they list (merely list, don't recommend) Starbucks, their book would be a lot better than it is.

oakapple, have you recently checked how many restaurants in the "Outer Boroughs" are listed in Zagat? I haven't checked since I decided not to participate in their survey anymore (and, thereby, not get a free copy of the resulting publication), but I used to note a truly amazing level of omissions on geographic bases.

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Ironic that one of the hosts here mentions this fact--- I have complained that the exact same geographic issues are right here on Egullet. 99% of the discussions are about Manhattan. There is a lot of territory outside Manhattan, of particular interest to me is Westchester. At least Zagat has a NY State book, outside Manhattan, that includes Westchester. Egullet does not have a separate forum at all for outside Manhattan!!

[hathor]

Anyone else get a chuckle out of reading Manhattan User's Guide tirades about Zagat?

[Pan]

menton1, if the worst thing that could be said about Zagat is that they list (merely list, don't recommend) Starbucks, their book would be a lot better than it is.

oakapple, have you recently checked how many restaurants in the "Outer Boroughs" are listed in Zagat? I haven't checked since I decided not to participate in their survey anymore (and, thereby, not get a free copy of the resulting publication), but I used to note a truly amazing level of omissions on geographic bases.

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Ironic that one of the hosts here mentions this fact--- I have complained that the exact same geographic issues are right here on Egullet. 99% of the discussions are about Manhattan. There is a lot of territory outside Manhattan, of particular interest to me is Westchester. At least Zagat has a NY State book, outside Manhattan, that includes Westchester. Egullet does not have a separate forum at all for outside Manhattan!!

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No, we have one forum for the entire state of New York. What people choose to post about on a website is hardly comparable to geographical bias in a guidebook. If you want more coverage of Westchester, please post things about Westchester.

[menton1]

No, we have one forum for the entire state of New York. What people choose to post about on a website is hardly comparable to geographical bias in a guidebook. If you want more coverage of Westchester, please post things about Westchester.

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Sorry, that's a gross oversimplification of the issue-- you might as well just have a "Northeast" Forum, instead of all the different regions separated into NY, NJ, Pa, DC, etc... the culture of upstate is just different from Manhattan. Manhattan is a place that needs to be by itself. If there is to be ANY meaningful discussion of "outside Manhattan" on Egullet, it needs a forum separate from Manhattan.

[Jason Perlow]

Be it as it may Menton, the lack of a forum for that region does not proscribe anyone from posting about Westchester or Upstate. Right now we have an entire forum tha encompasses all of New York State. If we start seeing significant Westchester or upstate or Long Isand content in it, it might call for a new forum. New forum creation is justified by how much activity we see -- we start out with larger geographical forums and we subdivide them as we see fit, and that includes finding appropriate leadership for those forums. Right now we just don't see that need. Traffic and posts grow on this site in an organic manner, not by just creating forums and expecting people to post there -- we tried that with several other areas of the site, such as the Caribbean and South America and Africa-- so "build it and they will come" is just not true. People complain we don't have a Northern California or Southern California Forum for the same reason and it is just as invalid.

[akwa]

how many listings are in queens?

[oakapple]

how many listings are in queens?

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If I've counted correctly, it looks to be about 90, with Astoria (33) having the most listings. The only other Queens neighborhood with double-digit listings is Flushing (10).

To Menton's point, I tend to agree with the moderators that the current set-up, with one forum for New York State, is at present the correct one. Chowhound has separate forums for "Manhattan" and "Outer Boroughs," and that arrangement has never worked well, IMO. The moderators there are constantly yelling at people for posting about Brooklyn restaurants on the Manhattan forum. A lot of people view New York City as one integrated marketplace, and splitting off the outer boroughs confuses as many users as it helps. Somebody who lives in Cobble Hill is a lot closer to most Manhattan restaurants than she is to much of Brooklyn, to say nothing of the other boroughs.