Restaurant Owner versus Critic

[jamiemaw]

[...]After all, for anyone intimidated by the prospect of declining bottled water, well . . . they might be more comfortable in establishments where it's not offered at all.[...]

←

Just as someone intimidated by a used car salesman's sharp trading practices shouldn't be the one negotiating with the used car salesman (no offense to honest used car salesmen intended). But please understand my point clearly: I am not intimidated by a hard sell; instead, it offends me. A truly classy establishment will not try to pull a fast one on its customers.

←

Pan,

Fortunately we still have potable tap water here. I request it by name. However our Italian hosts at dinner the other evening had ensured that both still (Badoit) and sparkling (San Pellegrino) waters were offered to each of their guests throughout the night. In Vancouver, that's the equivalent of carrying coals to Newcastle. But it would be a shame to see this thread suffer this monumentally petite aqueous distraction when there are, I suspect, rather larger issues (see above) in play.

I hope that restaurant proprietors and chefs take this opportunity to chime in.

Jamie

Edited September 1, 2005 by jamiemaw (log)

[Holly Moore]

In four years of owning my restaurant I had to ask maybe 5 tables to leave. In my experience guests are rarely as you paint them, Jamie. And when they are, a skilled server almost always can easily take control of the guests and in most cases win them over as fans.

I see diners as guests first and customers second. A cliche, I know. But I truly believe it. Of all the restaurants in all the world or at least all of Philadelphia, those guests chose my restaurant. I owe them a great experience.

Big deal if the guests don't get the sweat and toil that happens in the kitchen. I don't want them to think about it. I just want them to have a good time, eat well, pay the check and come back often. Along with being civil, or at least trainable, that's their job and responsibility. Nothing more.

And yes I want them to let their server or me know if there is a major or minor problem. If it is important enough to a guest that he raises an issue, it is important enough to me, as his host, that I try to resolve it or at least come up with a solution that neither spoils the guest's evening or embarasses my restaurant or staff.

No shows are indeed the scum of the earth. But like ice machines that only break down on Saturday night they are a fact of life in the restaurant business. My rationalization - anyone who is a no-show is probably someone I didn't want in my restaurant. And on the days it mattered, the weekends, we had standbys ready to replace them. So no harm as far as I'm concerned. The no-shows lost out on a great experience and we got to serve guests who really wanted to eat in our restaurant.

[jamiemaw]

In four years of owning my restaurant I had to ask maybe 5 tables to leave.  In my experience guests are rarely as you paint them, Jamie.  And when they are, a skilled server almost always can easily take control of the guests and in most cases win them over as fans.

I see diners as guests first and customers second.  A cliche, I know.  But I truly believe it.  Of all the restaurants in all the world or at least all of Philadelphia, those guests chose my restaurant.  I owe them a great experience.

Big deal if the guests don't get the sweat and toil that happens in the kitchen.  I don't want them to think about it. I just want them to have a good time, eat well, pay the check and come back often.  Along with being civil, or at least trainable, that's their job and responsibility.  Nothing more. 

EDIT

←

Thank the unusaully polite guests (brotherly love et al) in your wonderful city, Holly, which I frequent several times a year. Tomorrow, in fact, I'm hosting some industry friends from the Four Seasons Philadelphia. I can only hope that our local restaurant guests don't wind up in fisticuffs a la the Broad Street Bullies of yore. I mean, where's Dave Schultz when you need him?

Your response, while beautifully reasoned, does not completely fit with my experience. I would continue to maintain that the contract is skewed, perhaps based on the North American ethos of 'The Customer Is Always Right Even When He's Not' or merely the artificial sense of entitlement that I observe restaurant patrons subjecting less well-paid service workers to. That experience has been gained, sometimes painfully, after 20 years in the front trench and I often find that the more expensive the restaurant the worse the disparity in patron:worker politesse.

That being said, your extensive first-hand experience gives me hope.

Jamie

[russ parsons]

sorry jamie, i really disagree with your entire premise. chefs are not artists in their ateliers. we the customers are not privileged just to be admitted. they are in a retail business, even if they don't, as you say, have hopes of becoming rich and famous (i really envy vancouverians having such a self-effacing bunch).

i think it's telling that the chef chose to frame his argument in the nature of a personal relationship. The nature of a business relationship is much different than that of one that is purely social. the basis is that one side (the restaurant) needs the other (the customer) much more than vice versa. And therefore, while one may weep at the inequity, the restaurant must do everything it can to make the customer happy, rather than vice versa. it may not be fair, but as they say in the godfather, "this is the life we have chosen."

this doesn't mean that everything a customer does is right, but it does mean that a smart businessman will make it his practice to learn to accomodate them, rather than whine that he is unappreciated.

[jamiemaw]

sorry jamie, i really disagree with your entire premise. chefs are not artists in their ateliers. we the customers are not privileged just to be admitted. they are in a retail business, even if they don't, as you say, have hopes of becoming rich and famous (i really envy vancouverians having such a self-effacing bunch).

i think it's telling that the chef chose to frame his argument in the nature of a personal relationship. The nature of a business relationship is much different than that of one that is purely social. the basis is that one side (the restaurant) needs the other (the customer) much more than vice versa. And therefore, while one may weep at the inequity, the restaurant must do everything it can to make the customer happy, rather than vice versa. it may not be fair, but as they say in the godfather, "this is the life we have chosen."

this doesn't mean that everything a customer does is right, but it does mean that a smart businessman will make it his practice to learn to accomodate them, rather than whine that he is unappreciated.

←

Your comments don't entirely reflect my premise, Russ, or perhaps there's a cultural divide even wider than I might have supposed. Of course chefs and restaurant owners are in a retail business. And I didn't state nor mean to imply that they are 'artists in their ateliers', in fact quite the opposite: for the most part they're gut-busting, beer-drinking, sore-footed, washed-up rugby players just like you and me. Perhaps that's why I'm so very fond of (most of) them.

But that too is hardly the point. They are also flackcatchers like no others (OK, I'll allow you Michael Bloomberg), and the inequity is indeed real and sometimes injurious. The likes of it, in fact, are unknown to me in other industries. That's why I thought it refreshing to hear from the dark side, and far from finding it whining, I thought it a rather refreshing little diatribe. Hopefully we'll hear more right here.

I believe that your statement, "the basis is that one side (the restaurant) needs the other (the customer) much more than vice versa" is perhaps reflective of that yawning cultural divide. Vancouverites , while not necessarily self-effacing, may well invest less capital in the notion that there should be a difference in standards between the demeanor of personal and social relationships and those transactions where one is separating fellow comrades from their money.

At least that's what the WTO had to say last week.

Jamie

Edited September 1, 2005 by jamiemaw (log)

[russ parsons]

But that too is hardly the point. They are also flackcatchers like no others (OK, I'll allow you Michael Bloomberg), and the inequity is indeed real and sometimes injurious.

←

i certainly hope you're right about vancouverites, but on this count, i think you're wrong. have you ever talked to a guy selling ladies' shoes? now that is a bad job and one where you are really at the customer's mercy. as awful as no-shows are, i doubt it can compare to the guy who spends an hour bent over someone's sweaty feet, trying on sling after sling only to have them say "you know, I was just looking" and get up and walk away.

restaurants are retail. granted, they make us (or at least me) happier than most other forms of retail, but they are retail nonetheless.

[fiftydollars]

I hate to see the amount of bread, butter and other food that comes with the table and that's thrown away in some restaurants.

←

From what Bourdain says in Kitchen Confidential, less is thrown out than you would think.

[Holly Moore]

Thank the unusaully polite guests (brotherly love et al) in your wonderful city, Holly, which I frequent several times a year. Tomorrow, in fact, I'm hosting some industry friends from the Four Seasons Philadelphia. I can only hope that our local restaurant guests don't wind up in fisticuffs a la the Broad Street Bullies of yore. I mean, where's Dave Schultz when you need him?

Your response, while beautifully reasoned, does not completely fit with my experience. I would continue to maintain that the contract is skewed, perhaps based on the North American ethos of 'The Customer Is Always Right Even When He's Not' or merely the artificial sense of entitlement that I observe restaurant patrons subjecting less well-paid service workers to. That experience has been gained, sometimes painfully, after 20 years in the front trench and I often find that the more expensive the restaurant the worse the disparity in patron:worker politesse.

That being said, your extensive first-hand experience gives me hope.

Jamie

←

I'm not sure "unusually polite" applies to my experience. Just not unusally obnoxious. I was fortunate in that my restaurant was an upscale cafe whose menu probably did not appeal to the shot and beer crowd. We rarely served the "loud" customer base you'd find at a sports bar. But I'd say our customer base was typical of the Philadelphia Restaurant Renaissance restaurants. I'd submit that our guests were the same as those who now patronize Philadelphia's BYO's.

I'm not sure what you mean by 20 years in the front trench. If you're speaking as a food writer, you've got a few fine dining years on me. I traded in my linen napkin for a moist towelette after 13 years. But over those 13 high-on-the-hog years I did not share your experiences with neighboring diner behavior. A few perhaps, but far more the exception than the rule.

I don't agree that guest obnoxiousness grows with check average. There are obnoxious guests at all levels. Perhaps they stand out more in the more sedate atmosphere of a mega-star restaurant. Perhaps, as they amassed their money, they fine-tuned their obnoxiousness in the process.

It is not that the customer is always right. It is that the customer is my guest. My job is to make my guest feel comfortable. Hospitality.

I stand behind what I said earlier. A skilled server can artfully turn around all but the most obnoxious customer. My positive experience with customers lies more in that I hired great servers most of whom stayed with me the entire time I had my restaurant. When a restaurateur complains about his obnoxious customers I'm willing to bet that restaurateur does not get the front-of-the-house / hospitality.

[jamiemaw]

But that too is hardly the point. They are also flackcatchers like no others (OK, I'll allow you Michael Bloomberg), and the inequity is indeed real and sometimes injurious.

←

i certainly hope you're right about vancouverites, but on this count, i think you're wrong. have you ever talked to a guy selling ladies' shoes?

←

Russ, while I appreciate your empathy with the Al Bundy cohort, I hardly think it a correct analogy. Chef is to cobbler as server is to Bundy. Wouldn't nine out of 10 New Yorkians agree about 50% of the time?

Edited September 2, 2005 by jamiemaw (log)

[jamiemaw]

Holly Moore,Sep 1 2005, 05:52 PM

I'm not sure "unusually polite" applies to my experience. Just not unusally obnoxious. I was fortunate in that my restaurant was an upscale cafe whose menu probably did not appeal to the shot and beer crowd. We rarely served the "loud" customer base you'd find at a sports bar. But I'd say our customer base was typical of the Philadelphia Restaurant Renaissance restaurants. I'd submit that our guests were the same as those who now patronize Philadelphia's BYO's.

I was being somewhat-to-quite facetious, but couldn't find the right emoticon.

By the way, my Philadelphia-based business partner was 'shushed' for cheering too loudly at a Vancouver Canucks hockey game. He also left an impressive midden of peanut shells under his and adjacent seats but was not actually arrested.

I'm not sure what you mean by 20 years in the front trench. If you're speaking as a food writer, you've got a few fine dining years on me. I traded in my linen napkin for a moist towelette after 13 years. But over those 13 high-on-the-hog years I did not share your experiences with neighboring diner behavior. A few perhaps, but far more the exception than the rule.

Merely a cheap pun regarding writing and eating (as in trencherman) for a couple of decades. I don't differentiate between fine dining and a good rack.

I don't agree that guest obnoxiousness grows with check average. There are obnoxious guests at all levels. Perhaps they stand out more in the more sedate atmosphere of a mega-star restaurant. Perhaps, as they amassed their money, they fine-tuned their obnoxiousness in the process.

I've seen some particularly stupid behaviour, at restaurants as different in their approach to assuaging the human condition as the parvenus who frequent Café Boulud and La Côte Basque are from payday Friday brothers at my local rib shack. Maybe its the egalitarian in me, but if I had to choose one type of restaurant misbehaviour, I'd probably opt for the more transparent versus the snotty.

It is not that the customer is always right. It is that the customer is my guest. My job is to make my guest feel comfortable. Hospitality.

Agreed. This thought alone could jump you to the head of the queue.

I stand behind what I said earlier. A skilled server can artfully turn around all but the most obnoxious customer. My positive experience with customers lies more in that I hired great servers most of whom stayed with me the entire time I had my restaurant. When a restaurateur complains about his obnoxious customers I'm willing to bet that restaurateur does not get the front-of-the-house / hospitality.

Well done on the first thought. It's called the food service industry after all and perhaps that's what's so very attractive about the vast corpus of humanity that swells its ranks.

On your second thought, legion are the stories that most restaurauteurs and chefs have about intransigent/PMessy/snobby/fornicating-in-the-coat closet/projectile vomiting/know-it-all/leglessly drunk dinner guests. But the storyteller isn't complaining, he's sharing his life and more often than not, he's laughing.

I enjoy hearing those stories every bit as much as I look forward to stepping over the protaganists on my way out the door.

Cheers,

Jamie

Edited September 2, 2005 by jamiemaw (log)

[Holly Moore]

Holly Moore,Sep 1 2005, 05:52 PM

I'm not sure "unusually polite" applies to my experience. Just not unusally obnoxious. I was fortunate in that my restaurant was an upscale cafe whose menu probably did not appeal to the shot and beer crowd. We rarely served the "loud" customer base you'd find at a sports bar. But I'd say our customer base was typical of the Philadelphia Restaurant Renaissance restaurants. I'd submit that our guests were the same as those who now patronize Philadelphia's BYO's.

I was being somewhat-to-quite facetious, but couldn't find the right emoticon.

By the way, my Philadelphia-based business partner was 'shushed' for cheering too loudly at a Vancouver Canucks hockey game. He also left an impressive midden of peanut shells under his and adjacent seats but was not actually arrested.

Alas eGullet lacks emoticons for the more subtle emotions. But I recognized your facetiousity. It is an effective strategy to minimize another's point which is why I attempted to defacetify your observation.

-EDITED -

I stand behind what I said earlier. A skilled server can artfully turn around all but the most obnoxious customer. My positive experience with customers lies more in that I hired great servers most of whom stayed with me the entire time I had my restaurant. When a restaurateur complains about his obnoxious customers I'm willing to bet that restaurateur does not get the front-of-the-house / hospitality.

Well done on the first thought. It's called the food service industry after all and perhaps that's what's so very attractive about the vast corpus of humanity that swells its ranks.

On your second thought, legion are the stories that most restaurauteurs and chefs have about intransigent/PMessy/snobby/fornicating-in-the-coat closet/projectile vomiting/know-it-all/leglessly drunk dinner guests. But the storyteller isn't complaining, he's sharing his life and more often than not, he's laughing.

I enjoy hearing those stories every bit as much as I look forward to stepping over the protaganists on my way out the door.

True. And such tales and complaints are a great way to let off steam - privately, with a friend. But if a restaurateur does so in front of his staff he is validating and reinforcing such attitudes about customers with his staff.

Everyone has those chalk-on-the-blackboard stimuli that turn a sinner into Billy Graham. One of mine is when hospitality is downplayed within the restaurant business. I'll end my sermon with the words of hotelier Elsworth M. Statler that I read by the door every day as I headed to class during my hotel/restaurant management student days. "Life is service. The one who progresses is the one who gives his fellow human beings a little more, a little better service."

[Sparkitus]

I think water should be poured for each guest as they are sat right away. After that , you can ask if they would like bottled water. I like sparkling with dinner and order it all the time. I do not like to be forced into it or made in any way uncomfortable. I am running a business but I think my business is about making people feel welcome and comfortable and not trying to trick them into ordering something they do not want or need.

←

I think it's a bit ridiculous to "pour first, ask questions later." The point of asking at all is to provide service by making a guest know they have options. And, yes, bottled water comes with an added cost, but not to offer for fear of making someone uncomfortable can also have the added affect of being insulting (assuming someone can't/won't pay for water). Perhaps it's the tone of the server who offers bottled water, not the offer itself, that makes people uncomfortable...

Edited September 2, 2005 by Sparkitus (log)

[nwyles]

I think water should be poured for each guest as they are sat right away. After that , you can ask if they would like bottled water. I like sparkling with dinner and order it all the time. I do not like to be forced into it or made in any way uncomfortable. I am running a business but I think my business is about making people feel welcome and comfortable and not trying to trick them into ordering something they do not want or need.

←

I think it's a bit ridiculous to "pour first, ask questions later." The point of asking at all is to provide service by making a guest know they have options. And, yes, bottled water comes with an added cost, but not to offer for fear of making someone uncomfortable can also have the added affect of being insulting (assuming someone can't/won't pay for water). Perhaps it's the tone of the server who offers bottled water, not the offer itself, that makes people uncomfortable...

←

I have to disagree. As you are introducing yourself to the table, you should be pouring some water. If they want to have bottled water when you ask, they will.

To clarify, in my place, sparkling water vs. still is 100 to 1. We sell so little still water. I think it is because our tap water is very good.

As I stated, it was the way the server posed the question that I did not like. I thought it smacked of the "foot in the door salesman" .

I also think people should be given bread right away. I have had servers delay delivering bread as it might sway their ordering a starter or not. I think that that is crap. Get them some bread and water as they are our guests. I guess I am just funny that way. Although in some cases it might be true, I do not see it as a big toss up " Hmmm....Shrimp cocktail or do I just eat this bread ? I can't decide !"

Edited September 2, 2005 by nwyles (log)

[jamiemaw]

Everyone has those chalk-on-the-blackboard stimuli that turn a sinner into Billy Graham.  One of mine is when hospitality is downplayed within the restaurant business.  I'll end my sermon with the words of hotelier Elsworth M. Statler that I read by the door every day as I headed to class during my hotel/restaurant management student days.  "Life is service.  The one who progresses is the one who gives his fellow human beings a little more, a little better service."

←

Up here, on the other hand, we're disciples of the F. Morris Chatters school of hospicing: "Life is nasty, brutish and short. Get over it."

On the other hand, Mum always espoused, "You were put here to bring out the best in others. So that eventually, they'll have the opportunity to bring out the best in you."

Needless to say, Danny Meyer overheard her.

J.

[Holly Moore]

Up here, on the other hand, we're disciples of the F. Morris Chatters school of hospicing: "Life is nasty, brutish and short. Get over it."

...

←

I can see how the Right Honorable F. Morris Chatters' tender consolation could provide comfort during hospice care, but I sense he is best suited to the Carnegie Deli segment of the hospitality industry.

[jamiemaw]

Up here, on the other hand, we're disciples of the F. Morris Chatters school of hospicing: "Life is nasty, brutish and short. Get over it."

...

←

I can see how the Right Honorable F. Morris Chatters' tender consolation could provide comfort during hospice care, but I sense he is best suited to the Carnegie Deli segment of the hospitality industry.

←

Precisely. But how about Mum?

[Holly Moore]

My sainted mom taught me long ago not to comment on another bloke's mom, or in the case of our neighbors to the North, mum.

[Carrot Top]

Sorry to sound all sort of soft about this thing, but really there is something about the relationship between the person that puts food on the table as host (whether for financial profit or not) and the guest at the table that causes it to fall more into a category slightly higher than the usual buyer/seller contractual relationship.

This is going to sound even sillier perhaps, but the relationship is more exalted at best. It is about service on the part of the host, hospitality. . .raised to an artform if it can be. Now this does not mean white tablecloths and fine china, though if the situation demands that style, then that style it should be. It is something about . . .really turning oneself inside out so as to not be about one's own ego when serving the guest, but to be as much as humanly possible about moving the guest through food and service to a place where time and worries dissolve, to a place where pleasure and comfort reign.

In this relationship, the host wants to bring the guest to a heaven on earth.

In that sense, the relationship is sacred to the host, and that is why it is difficult for those who try to do it well to speak of this "contract" as if it were something where the guest "owes" certain profane obligations. That turns the relationship into something less than what it could be. It demeans it in a way, it profanes it.

The relationship is nothing like dating. Let me not get started on that one.

Finally, there are guests who do not belong at this table. . .they have a disrespect for the thing that the host is trying to do. They do not comprehend it at all. Lots of people do not understand lots of things in life that go beyond the simple and blunt and grimy.

Their loss. They will never experience that thing that can happen when a host manages to create the perfect theatre of life, food, and hospitality that will make a coming to table for a dining experience. . .a small bit of heaven on earth. . .in that brief slice of time.

[Carrot Top]

Well, actually let me take one part of that back.

*If* the relationship between guest and host *is* like dating (who am I to say it is not, it may be so between whoever it is. . .in a conceptual sense ) then trouble is surely bound to ensue rather quickly.

For one of the parties wants to have sex, and as quickly as possible. Usually isn't guaranteed that the other party wants the same thing in the same way at the same time.

All sorts of problems can arise if the relationship is shaped like that and the time span is one meal.

Edited September 2, 2005 by Carrot Top (log)

[Pan]

I think water should be poured for each guest as they are sat right away. After that , you can ask if they would like bottled water. I like sparkling with dinner and order it all the time. I do not like to be forced into it or made in any way uncomfortable. I am running a business but I think my business is about making people feel welcome and comfortable and not trying to trick them into ordering something they do not want or need.

←

I think it's a bit ridiculous to "pour first, ask questions later." The point of asking at all is to provide service by making a guest know they have options. And, yes, bottled water comes with an added cost, but not to offer for fear of making someone uncomfortable can also have the added affect of being insulting (assuming someone can't/won't pay for water). Perhaps it's the tone of the server who offers bottled water, not the offer itself, that makes people uncomfortable...

←

No, it's not the tone, it's the absence of "tap" as a choice in the sales pitch.

[Carrot Top]

For one of the parties wants to have sex, and as quickly as possible. Usually isn't guaranteed that the other party wants the same thing in the same way at the same time.

All sorts of problems can arise if the relationship is shaped like that and the time span is one meal.

←

I can not believe that I posted such an excellent "straight line" and that nobody has answered it yet.

What a lost opportunity!

The answer should have been, "Not at my restaurant."

Pah.

Well. They may have an excuse. It is the weekend, and they may all actually be working.

[loiosh]

Other annoyances to me:  Huge wine glasses and big pours so that the wine you bought is poured in 4 or 5 glasses before the appetizer comes so you feel like you need another bottle.  We usually have a cocktail and tell them to bring the wine before the entrees.

An exciting variation is when the server fills each wine glass almost to the rim, and when you try to get it down a bit so you can hold your glass without spilling it on yourself, they come round and top it up before you can say anything. Crikey! I'm not expecting every Tom's Cafe, Dick's Restaurant, and Harry's Bistro to have a sommelier, but the staff could at least get a few pointers on wine service. Particularly annoying when you've driven and just want to have a small taste of the wine.