Park and Orchard

[Campofiorin]

Hey there, I'll be visiting NYC next month and we'll be staying in Lyndhurst. I saw in my latest edition of Wine Spectator that Park and Orchard has won an award for its wine list since 1991. So the wine list is great but what about the food? The menu is quite long but is anything good? That'd be a nice place to visit since it's a five minute drive from the hotel. Thanks all.

[Rosie]

More info here:

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showto...3917&hl=Orchard

[Curlz]

Park & Orchard certainly has an impressive wine list, but I can't say I've ever been impressed by the food; it's fine, but it's not going to knock you out (unless you're a vegetarian). It would, however, be an excellent place to go for drinks after dinner!

A few other nearby recommendations:

Indian Chef in Lodi for terrific food in a completely casual and unusual setting; the owners have also just opened a full-scale restaurant nearby, and there is info about it in that thread.

Mignon in Rutherford (steakhouse, BYO)

And Hoboken, which is full of some terrific restaurants, is within 10 miles as well. My favorite is

The Jefferson, but if you do a search for Hoboken in the NJ forum, you'll find lots of places.

Most especially if you're travelling with others, Newark's Ironbound section is a great spot for Spanish, Portuguese and Brazilian food and is close by as well. Please don't let the fact that it's Newark scare you. Seriously.

Holler if you have other questions!

Curlz

[Campofiorin]

Thanks for all the reccos. We'll do most of our eating in the city but we'll probably have a dinner or two in Jersey and that helps us figure out where to go.

[menton1]

Park & Orchard has kind of run its course, IMHO... it was a novelty 20 years ago, but is now a bit faded and needs a makeover, both in decor and menu.

For a treat, check out Cafe Matisse in Rutherford (the next town) with a terrific creative menu (NYC quality) and a liquor store attached to the restaurant, so that you buy your own bottle, at retail prices rather than restaurant prices and they serve it to you in the restaurant. Great place!

[viejomajadero]

Based on your name I would recommend Pierluigi or for great wine list and cheese Al Bric.

But since you ask about my least favorite, over - rated, server of what can best be described as plates of glop ---Park & Orchard, and since my wife said I should be nice ----- I will be nice. It has a great wine list.

That said I would recommend -- assuming you have transportation --

Fascino in Montclair

Amanda's and Jefferson in Hoboken

The Manor in West Orange -- for dress up, romantic, excellent food and service and only in the alacarte section. NOT the smorgasboard.

There are more but I am trying to stay reasonably close to Lyndhurst

Viejo

[ghostrider]

If you're traveling (which you are), one factor to consider is that the portions at Park & Orchard seem almost deliberately designed to provide you with 2 meals. Either you wind up with a takeaway bag or you throw out a good deal of food.

They use a LOT of butter in some of their dishes. Whether that's a plus or a minus depends on your tastes. I always found it ironic that they eschew red meats but load on the butter.

I still like the place - curiously, as expressed well by Tommy in the thread linked above, I can't say it better - though yes, there are many other options in the area. We tend to be late diners so have never had to wait for a table at P&O.

[Cleo]

I always found it ironic that they eschew red meats but load on the butter.

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I had dinner at P&O about 4 or 5 months ago for the first time in a long time. My parents used to live nearby, so we went there every so often. I like it. And they now have a few steaks on the menu.

One dish that I really like is a penne with chicken sausage. Nothing innovative, but always good.

[markk]

If you're serious about your Burgundies, and you go on a night when Buddy (one of the two owner-brothers) is there and engage him in conversation and let him know that you're familiar with those wines (assuming you are), he'll guide you to some of the best Burgundies you're likely to drink in the USA. (The familiarity has to do with the fact that these are, of course, expensive wines, and he's had his fill of people coming in who don't know much about wine, asking for comparisons of several expensive Burgundies from the list, then ordering one and complaining because "it just tastes like regular red wine to them, and they were expecting something more for all that money". He has a real problem taking back bottles of expensive wine that are just fine, and he's right.

But his cellar of Burgundies (white and red) is spectacular, and as he's chosen every bottle personally, he can steer you to exactly what you're in the mood to try.

The food, alas, has gone steadily downhill over the years. There's really nothing to eat that matches the magnificence of the wines, or comes close, and it presents a real dilemma. If you're seriously in the mood to drink great Burgundy, then you should go on a night when he's there, engage him in a discussion of what to drink and what to eat with it, and judge for yourself. But if the prospect of a great bottle or Burgundy or two isn't what you're after, this isn't the restaurant for you.

[Rail Paul]

If you're serious about your Burgundies, and you go on a night when Buddy (one of the two owner-brothers) is there and engage him in conversation and let him know that you're familiar with those wines (assuming you are), he'll guide you to some of the best Burgundies you're likely to drink in the USA.  (The familiarity has to do with the fact that these are, of course, expensive wines, and he's had his fill of people coming in who don't know much about wine, asking for comparisons of several expensive Burgundies from the list, then ordering one and complaining because "it just tastes like regular red wine to them, and they were expecting something more for all that money".  He has a real problem taking back bottles of expensive wine that are just fine, and he's right.

But his cellar of Burgundies (white and red) is spectacular, and as he's chosen every bottle personally, he can steer you to exactly what you're in the mood to try.

The food, alas, has gone steadily downhill over the years.  There's really nothing to eat that matches the magnificence of the wines, or comes close, and it presents a real dilemma.  If you're seriously in the mood to drink great Burgundy, then you should go on a night when he's there, engage him in a discussion of what to drink and what to eat with it, and judge for yourself.  But if the prospect of a great bottle or Burgundy or two isn't what you're after, this isn't the restaurant for you.

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The wine list is superb. Here's a link to the first page. Click on the link at the bottom for the 200 page list.

deep in 1996-2000 Pomerol, Burgundy, etc. Prices are reasonable for these highly rated wines, if you enjoy drinking them in a high school cafeteria

Park & Orchard

[JohnL]

The consensus seems to be great wine list --decent food.

The wine list is truely amazing both in scope and pricing.

The menu to me, is all over the map.

This is a good thing.

First:

The "cafeteria" like atmosphere is a very unpretentious setting--you can dine comfortably in casual dress (or a tuxedo) no stuffiness here.

Second:

If this place got "serious" about raising the quality of the food and the ambiance to "match" the fine Burgundies on the list--the prices would also rise substantially and the breadth of the menu and the wine list would shrink dramatically.

As a wine lover this place is just fine (and unique).

Whatever you are in the mood for --wine and/or food--you can get here--you can come alone or with a crowd--and the prices are reasonable (many of the wines on the list are almost insanely low priced). The range of food is, apropriately, as varied as the wine list; true, it rarely rises above just decent or good but with a really good well priced bottle (or half bottle or glass) of wine that's all one really needs!

I believe that restaurants can be too "serious" in their attempts to offer ne plus ultra food, wine and atmosphere. Few actually succeed--and these are prohibitavely expensive--both the wine and the food!

P and O is a place run by people who love wine and want to share that with others (us) in a relaxed convivial atmosphere with good food. Sometimes you just can't have it all!

[Susan]

You may want to try Fortunato Ristorante right in Lyndhurst. I have not been there yet, but I have heard great things about it from friends who have gone. I plan on going this week. I will let you know what I think after I go. Rosie mentioned that she enjoyed her dinner there as well.

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showto...54&hl=Fortunato

[viejomajadero]

JohnL

Very respectfully I am making some comments about your analysis of P&O.

Maybe our differences are based on age, I am very soon to be 59, economics, food and life/travel experiences, pallete preferences. I am not sure.

1. "The consensus seems to be great wine list --decent food."

I think the concensus is great wine list. I think decent is a compliment to the food. These are quotes so far about the food:

Viejo --- server of what can best be described as plates of glop

JohnL -- it rarely rises above just decent or good

MarkK-- The food, alas, has gone steadily downhill over the years

Menton 1-- Park & Orchard has kind of run its course

Curlz-- I can't say I've ever been impressed by the food

John, can you imagine these quotes in a serious food review?

2. "If this place got "serious" about raising the quality of the food and the ambiance to "match" the fine Burgundies on the list--the prices would also rise substantially and the breadth of the menu and the wine list would shrink dramatically."

John, it would not take much to raise the quality of the food past "decent" on a consistant basis. Gummy brown rice, boring bread, for example, are not major cost factors. Interesting preparation and presentation of "salmon" for example will not raise costs. My food there always looked like it was thrown on the plate.

Lastly, I do eat at and prefer high end places in NJ. I have had dinner with the owners of Saddle River Inn, original owner of Sonoma Grill, Restaurant Latour at Crystal Springs for example. I am in a Culinary group that has a deep cellar and schedules dinner at the top restaurants. But, I also eat at "middle" places most often and BYO'S especially, as I have a few hundred bottles of wine to consume. The standard is they, at the least, must cook better than I do.

Thanks for your time

Viejo

[Curlz]

Based on all of these posts, it seems like P&O could go over the top if they either stepped up their kitchen and menu, or converted completely to a WINE BAR with great tapas/apps. Something sorely lacking in this area, imo.

Then again, not unlike lots of just-average restaurants, they've always been busy when I've been or driven by...

[tommy]

Then again, not unlike lots of just-average restaurants, they've always been busy when I've been or driven by...

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"busy"?!?! people are standing in line for that crap.

although in looking at the old thread i see that i actually appreciated some of the food there. perhaps my expectations were so low that anything decent seemed positive. and their wine glasses suck, so why bother.

[jwjojo]

"busy"?!?! people are standing in line for that crap.

Tommy, you are 100% correct..this place is a better diner...food is mediocre, atmosphere is like a diner...Crap.

[menton1]

"busy"?!?! people are standing in line for that crap

Red Lobster and Olive Garden always have big lines-- and they really SUCK...

It's amazing how successful mediocrity can be.

[viejomajadero]

Tommy

You always make me laugh.

Thanks

Viejo

[Curlz]

Tommy

You always make me laugh.

Thanks

Viejo

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Yeah, he sure has a way, doesn't he? When I first found this site, I read thread after thread and laughed my *ss off, usually thanks to Tommy.

[JohnL]

JohnL

Very respectfully I am making some comments about your analysis of P&O.

Maybe our differences are based on age, I am very soon to be 59, economics, food and life/travel experiences, pallete preferences.  I am not sure. 

1. "The consensus seems to be great wine list --decent food."

    I think the concensus is great wine list.  I think decent is a compliment to the food.  These are quotes so far about the food:

                      Viejo --- server of what can best be described as plates of glop

                      JohnL -- it rarely rises above just decent or good

                      MarkK-- The food, alas, has gone steadily downhill over the years

                  Menton 1-- Park & Orchard has kind of run its course

                      Curlz-- I can't say I've ever been impressed by the food

    John, can you imagine these quotes in a serious food review?

2. "If this place got "serious" about raising the quality of the food and the ambiance to "match" the fine Burgundies on the list--the prices would also rise substantially and the breadth of the menu and the wine list would shrink dramatically."

    John, it would not take much to raise the quality of the food past "decent" on a consistant basis.  Gummy brown rice, boring bread, for example, are not major cost factors.  Interesting preparation and presentation of "salmon" for example will not raise costs.  My food there always looked like it was thrown on the plate.

Lastly, I do eat at and prefer high end places in NJ.  I have had dinner with the owners of Saddle River Inn, original owner of Sonoma Grill, Restaurant Latour at Crystal Springs for example.  I am in a Culinary group that has a deep cellar and schedules dinner at the top restaurants.  But, I also eat at "middle" places most often and BYO'S especially, as I have a few hundred bottles of wine to consume.  The standard is they, at the least, must cook better than I do.

Thanks for your time

Viejo

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Viejo:

I am just behind you in age.

I also dined with John Foy and have eaten at Mr Egg's Inn.

My cellar is a bit larger than yours.

The fact is the wine list at P and O is quite exellent especially in price.

There are no restaurants in NJ -I can think of, that match it across the board.

We can haggle over the definition of "decent"--another fact--neither I nor many others go there for the food.

Yes there is quite a bit of room for improvement in the food and the decor areas.

It is also a fact that the place is successful so a lot of people are ok with things there.

To be fair, I believe one can find menu items that will do just fine--if one is primarily interested in the wine

(suprised no one has suggested they institute a BYOF policy!).

Anyway--I also enjoy a good hot dog or burger or a slice of pizza as much as I enjoy "haute cuisine"--if you and others want to "trash" the food at P and O that's ok. I can say that there are precious few restaurants offering equally great food and wine at low prices.--the lesson here is--you can't have everything!

[viejomajadero]

JOHN

Do a treat for yourself. Make a reservation at Restaurant Latour. Pricier than P&O. Lightyears ahead on food. And a wine list that will make P&O a second class citizen. Plus it overlooks a golf course and meadows rimmed with distant mountains. Sunset is the best.

Ask to see the wine cellar. It is breathtaking. It is very deep in the worlds best. It has plenty of wine history laying down for the taking/drinking.

Lastly, the owner would not rest if someone called his food "decent" by any definition. There would be no haggling. Period.

Viejo

[JohnL]

Thanks for the recommendation!

Actually I have been meaning to try Latour for some time now.

It is definitely on my list.

As for P&O, I simply feel that, as frequently happens out here, a "bandwagon" developed that did not reflect any perspective.

Even Tommy admits that in an earlier thread he "appreciated some of the food there." suddenly he is disavowing those comments with little rationale.

Though I haven't eaten at Latour, based on my somewhat limited knowledge of the place, I would say that the two restaurants are world's apart in their pretensions and their approaches.

In fact, they are so far apart that it is unfair to compare them.

P&O is decidedly "eclectic" it really is a slightly more "sophisticated" diner. The menu is all over the map (something for everyone approach). It is also very inexpensive. There is no comparison with a place like Latour which does have much more focus and considerably higher food prices. I would certainly expect a very different dining (and drinking) experience at a restaurant like Latour from what I would expect from P&O.

P&O is simply not a "food destination" or a gourmet's delight in as much as it is a very casual, fun upscale diner with a great wine list. In this it is somewhat unique.

I doubt the foodies here would be posting photos of the food and recounting their meals here.

It is a place I would consider "dropping into" at the last minute or a place I would consider going to with a large group of people--not, so much, a place I would be planning a visit to long in advance.

I also believe that if one is careful and selects simpler dishes (sauce on the side) one can put together a decent meal that will not compete or detract from the truely wonderful wine experience one can have here--P&O is not a place where one looks to "match" wine and food quality in search of that elusive perfect symbiotic w and f pairing.

I can think of no place where one can enjoy dinner with wines of this caliber and end up with an uncommonly low check.

That's my point, in the end there are trade offs--I can get a more "perfect" overall dining and drinking experience at, say, Veritas (I am sure at Latour as well) I am going to pay a lot more for it and the pretensions of those restaurants are well beyond those of P&O. Again, the differences in what the places are trying to do is so different, I am loathe to comapre them.

ps

I will let you know how Ilike Latour (soon as I can get there).

[tommy]

Yeah, he sure has a way, doesn't he?  When I first found this site, I read thread after thread and laughed my *ss off, usually thanks to Tommy.

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yeah, the good old days, when the antelope ran free through perpetually sunny meadows, as did expression.

i have to wonder who is ordering wines over the 40/50/60 dollar price-point at P&O? surely they sit on most of their inventory. how is it (the collection/program) even sustainable at this point?

to qualify my above comment on finding the food somewhat good, i should say that i clearly ordered well. i was referring to soft shell crab in butter and crispy duck, presumably cooked for hours on end. not much to go wrong here. i've not returned since that meal, and have never actually felt the need to return. sometimes it's a deterrent knowing that you'll have to put so much effort into making sure you order well. i'd just as soon grab a dry-aged piece of meat at Whole Foods, stop at a local wine store and get some advice on an interesting, albeit perhaps younger, burgundy in the 60 dollar price range, and guarantee that i'm eating and drinking well.

for a stop pre/post game with the boys, however, well is suppose P&O serves some sort of purpose there. good thing i don't like sports.

[Rail Paul]

i have to wonder who is ordering wines over the 40/50/60 dollar price-point at P&O?  surely they sit on most of their inventory.  how is it (the collection/program) even sustainable at this point?.

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hi tommy.

P&O does a significant amount of business with special order wine dinners. A group of high-rollers will dine in the wine cellar which can hold 15 diners or so. The kitchen will prepare a special menu to accompany the wine selection.

There's at least one dinner being planned by alumni of this site. Since the wine list reads more like a candy store, the difficulty is in deciding which wines to select.

Bayard's in the NY financial district offers similar accomodations from its cellars, some of which came from Harry's of Hanover Square.

[tommy]

paul, i guess you'd have to define "significant amount of business" to sate my curiosity. are 30 high-rollers a month (2 or 3 large special dinners, let's say) enough to sustain that kind of inventory?

and then the other question of course is "how special can that special dinner be?", considering the restaurant we're dealing with.