Women Wine Critics Board

[Rebel Rose]

Women Wine Critics Board

The adventure continues . . .

In June, I attended a women winemakers’ night at a local wine shop, to pour my own personal production of sangiovese that I produce (almost) every year. As the weather was beautiful and everyone was headed to the beach, the event was lightly attended. So later in the evening there were only five of us—the shop owner and four women winemakers. The topic drifted around to numerical scores and critics’ tastes, and one young woman said that although she felt there are quite a few excellent women wine writers, she didn’t feel there were enough women wine critics, and that women’s tastes are still poorly represented. I think at that point I said something stupid, like, well, why don’t you try it?

You simply don’t issue challenges like that to women who are already successfully navigating their way in a male-dominated industry. And since successful women are also masters of the art of delegation, I discovered the next day in a summarizing email that I am a founding member of the Women Wine Critics Board.

The loosely but enthusiastically conceived idea involved tasting and rating wines without numerical scores, with a professional and personal eye to balanced wines, writing reviews with a strong focus on food pairings, and publishing our collective reviews.

This is where the members of the eGullet Society come in. It is my responsibility to further define how and where we go from here. Who better to assist and advise than people who are passionate about wine and food? Who better to tweak and critique? I am hoping that this thread will become a sort of blog on the birth, growth, development, and possible gasping demise of this idea.

In July, we had our first meeting and tasted through a short range of German and U.S. Rieslings. Ironically, we found ourselves using the Davis 20-point spreadsheets for guidance, although most of us hated the spread. I gave one wine a much higher score than it could possibly have received following the spreadsheet. I explained to my boggle-eyed cohorts that I felt the balance in this wine was key and impressive, and I scratched out the meager possible ‘3’ for taste and acidity and gave it a ‘5.’ So there. (Mind you, there are several versions of this 20-point scale, some only adding up to 19 by the way, and I think we were using an older version.)

So at this point we were, and on most of these points still are, confronted with the following questions:

Who are the founding members?

What is our goal?

Who is our audience?

How best to reach them?

Should we include other women winemakers, critics, and writers?

How will we decide which varietals or regions to taste?

Can we taste and review wines from our own region without encountering peer resentment?

How and where can we publish and release our reviews?

What other information or insights can we provide?

Why in the heck are we doing this?

What do we expect to personally gain or contribute?

Will anybody really care?

And most importantly, can we still have fun, be feminine, and be taken seriously?

More to follow, but in the meantime . . . thoughts, anyone?

[battleofthebulge]

Is this a US only group? Or can anyone join in.

In which case, do we organise virtual tastings??

Or do we set up, say, a London chapter?

Where do you envisage the reviews being published - just on eGullet to begin with, then finding 'pro' media?

Sorry for all the questions I think it's a great idea to make women more confident and break down barriers. A lot of the tastings I go to here are for stuffed shirts and a 30 something woman who dares to ask questions is sniffed at.

Cheers!

Sarah

[Busboy]

I think you should begin by explaining this phrase: "women’s tastes are still poorly represented."

Does that mean that women prefer different styles of wine to men? That a group of women wine tasters, on average, would score a wine differently from a similar group of men wine? Thay they would taste/smell different things in the glass? That, just as Robert Parker has been accused of leading the industry towards a bland, "international style" of wine geared to winning high WS scores (an issue I believe you're familiar with ) a generation of powerful Roberta Parkers will pull the wine industry in anorther direction based on their scoring preferences? That objectivity in wine tasting is a myth and that, furthermore, bias is gender-based? That there are varietels and styles that suffer -- whose dedicated producers are punished, economically -- because of the testosterone-heavy nature of the tasting world? (I can ask almost as many questions as you )

Or, are you trying to wedge your way into the Boys Club (go for it!) and trying to organize to do it more effectively?

Edited to add: not trying to hijack the thread...ignore, delete or move as you see fit. But, looking at some of these questions will help you with question #2, "what is our goal?"

[Rebel Rose]

But, looking at some of these questions will help you with question #2, "what is our goal?"

Precisely. Bring it on, folks. I won't have time to answer questions fully until tomorrow morning. And even then, our plans, or at least my working draft outline of our plans, are far from clarified. Maybe what we're doing is controversial. Maybe it will serve a purpose. Maybe it needs to be challenged. Maybe people think it's fluff.

What do you think of this? San Francisco Chronicle

Sarah, to answer your question briefly, we have no plans as yet to form chapters or tasting groups, although we will probably write and publish articles on how to establish one. For instance, this year I wrote and am hosting a course in wine appreciation in our very own eGullet Culinary Institute. Our immediate plans are to keep the group to a very small core of women wine professionals.

Please keep the questions, comments, criticisms coming. But for now, someone has to work around here . . . I just wish it wasn't me.

[Brad Ballinger]

Not to be chauvinist Not to be chauvinist Not to be chauvinist Not to be chauvinist

1. The first tasting was Riesling.

2. I didn't realize the wine industry was a Boys Club. There are fantastic women winemakers, owners, etc. I will agree, however, that there isn't as much representation on the journalism end (Jancis Robinson, Andrea Immer, Mary Ewing-Mulligan, and Leslie Sbrocco don't really constitute a groundswell). But it just rubs me wrong when something like this (and like the Wine Adventure mag) become "public." The focus tends to shift from the subject (wine) to the personalities (women). And I'd worry about going down the path that leads to "Women like X type of wines, and men prefer Y type of wines." That may sell a lot of books, but it'll probably be full of BS.

I guess I'd spend energy looking at what do you, as women, have to say that isn't being said? What is the voice that's missing from the choir? And how can you do that without offending your own gender, and balancing femininity and feminism?

I'd also look at how are women consumers (if they are to be your audience) being slighted by the wine profession? I may be wrong, but I think the marketing of wine is geared much more heavily toward women then men. But if the marketing is inappropriate or insulting, then by all means pick up the torch. Wine criticim, on the other hand, I will grant you is probably geared more toward men. So I'd look at what you have to say to women that isn't being said.

The summary is "What do you, as women, have to say to women that is fresh?"

[JohnL]

Serena Sutcliffe, Jacqueline Friedrich,Elin McCoy, Lettie Teague, Penelope Casas, Karen MacNeil, Lisa Shara Hall,Pauline Wasserman--just some women wine journalists from my bookshelf.

:->

I think wine has been a "guy thing" for a long time.

I belong to a tasting group that is compriesed of mostly: lawyers, doctors, industry people, bond traders, entrepreneurs--mostly men.

Often wives attend tastings, and there is an increasing number of women who are lawyers, bond traders etc. that show up.

My wife has a really good palate she is not interested in mastering wine tasting lingo and thus she is reticent about speaking up and describing the wines being tasted. (she is a surgeon so she is certainly not a shrinking violet by nature).

Many women are simply not as agressive in these settings as men are. Believe me many of the guys have no hesitation about letting an inane comment flly (me included) and showing off our lack of knowledge.

I do think that often women are more comfortable with other women --they are just not possesing of the goofy agressiveness we men have--women also have a good sense of taste (ok they marry us--baddaboom!) as a stereo nut I know women have a better sense of hearing!

So-I think that approaching professional women's groups etc one would have some succes in starting a wine site, tasting group, newsletter etc.

[Rebel Rose]

Hmm, interesting points. Especially the questions.

Real quick on the choice of Riesling--it was the beginning of our warm weather season and we wanted to pick a wine that our region and our wineries are not known for, that we feel is under-represented in west coast restaurants, and that would be either a nice summer wine (if we got organized enough to print results), or a nice Thanksgiving wine if we needed more time to "get organized." So it was not a "girlie" choice. In fact, it never occurred to me that it might be perceived as one. Verrrry interesting . . .

[Daniel Rogov]

Several comments and question, those from a professional wine critic who happens by birth to be male and by choice hopefully not chauvinistic.

1. The idea of a group of winemakers turning critics smacks of something with a distinctly inbuilt ethical contradiction, and this regardless of the sex/gender of the members of the group, for those involved in the trade in any way should not play the role of critics. The opportunities for conscious or unconscious conflicts of interest is far too difficult to deal with here.

2. Is the concept of a "group" of critics to form a panel that will evaluate wines or to give each person in the group the opportunity to form and publish individual evaluations. Panel evaluations are, after all, considerably different in technique, style and impact than those of individuals

3. Agreed that in the United States and probably Canada women are underrepresented in the group of critics but in Europe this is anything but true, women's voices being no less heard and having no less impact than that of male colleagues. Are we talking about a uniquely North American need?

4. Agreed also that women have no less and perhaps greater ability than men (as potential super-tasters) to evaluate wines, but why the "group" concept.

5. I can easily understand why women would want to form their own tasting groups, their own groups of profesionnal colleagues, but do ask just what impact such a group will have on getting women into critic's positions.

As a point of possible interest, I am a member of a small group of colleagues that meets thrice annually in Europe for various tastings and discussions, with each person attending having his/her own agenda as well sharing a group agenda. We are a self-selected group, selection based entirely on mutual respect for each other for our wine knowledge and our palates. As it fell, the group consists today of 6 women and 5 men, four of whom are winemakers, one a wine negotiant and the rest of us either wine writers or critics. We never publicize our meetings, never publish group "reports" and have agreed that we will never publicize the names of our colleagues in contexty of our little group. Our main purpose - quite simple - continuing our own learning and development. Our secondary purpose - being with people we respect and enjoy. Perhaps a better model for what you are trying to accomplish?

[Carrot Top]

Ah. . .setting aside all the very admirable ideas that you've come up with to think about initiating within the scope of this recently inspired project (and I do love a project of this sort, for all sorts of thoughts, ideas, progressions can come from it of many sorts!). . .there is one question that seems to rise in my mind. It may seem rather an idiotic question, but nevertheless I'll ask it . . .and would also like to hear any answers that anyone has to it, please.

Is there any difference between the way(s) that women and men seem to experience the tasting of wines? Has anyone noticed anything along these lines, as a very general impression?

(Personally I don't have a clue but am curious. . .)

Karen

[Daniel Rogov]

Is there any difference between the way(s) that women and men seem to experience the tasting of wines? Has anyone noticed anything along these lines, as a very general impression?

←

Karen, Hi....

From the point of view of research, only one difference and that relates to the fact that women have a better statistical chance than men of being super-tasters. This has been discussed many times I am sure, so I won't go into it here, except to note that recent research (2002) at the University of Montpellier seems to demonstrate that this is as true among wine tasters as teetotallers.

From another perspective, some have speculated that women tend to be more sensual in their evaluations of wine while men are more oriented towards the analytical. I for one do not agree with this, the sensual-analytical dichotomy between men and women as a group being a rather artificial one.

[Carrot Top]

Karen, Hi....

From the point of view of research, only one difference and that relates to the fact that women have a better statistical chance than men of being super-tasters.  This has been discussed many times I am sure, so I won't go into it here, except to note that recent research (2002) at the University of Montpellier seems to demonstrate that this is as true among wine tasters as teetotallers.

From another perspective, some have speculated that women tend to be more sensual in their evaluations of wine while men are more oriented towards the analytical. I for one do not agree with this, the sensual-analytical dichotomy between men and women as a group being a rather artificial one.

←

That's interesting, Rogov. Leads me to wonder if any women have entered into the field of being coffee-tasters for the major trading companies. I remember all those guys being "guys" when I worked on Wall Street. Definite guys with guy-like Damon Runyon lives. All travelled to exotic places and all spoke interesting second and third languages like Zulu. What fun!

Which leads me to wonder if there are positions like this within the major wine-producing or trading companies. . .tasters. . .and how those positions are stacked gender-wise, or not.

.............................................................

The speculation about women tending to be more "sensual" in their evaluations as opposed to men being oriented towards the analytical. Can you make a guess as to why people would speculate this way?

I am wondering if it could be language-based somehow. . .based on the descriptions women might use in detailing their thoughts as opposed to the descriptions men might use?

[Busboy]

Is there any difference between the way(s) that women and men seem to experience the tasting of wines? Has anyone noticed anything along these lines, as a very general impression?

←

Karen, Hi....

From the point of view of research, only one difference and that relates to the fact that women have a better statistical chance than men of being super-tasters. This has been discussed many times I am sure, so I won't go into it here, except to note that recent research (2002) at the University of Montpellier seems to demonstrate that this is as true among wine tasters as teetotallers.

From another perspective, some have speculated that women tend to be more sensual in their evaluations of wine while men are more oriented towards the analytical. I for one do not agree with this, the sensual-analytical dichotomy between men and women as a group being a rather artificial one.

←

Anyone ever heard of a sex-segragated tasting panel? Ten men and ten women, tatsing the same wines, with the each groups' results compared and contrasted?

(Reb -- that event would get your group in the papers, I'll bet).

[Daniel Rogov]

Karen, Hi…

The true coffee taster is not the "guy" who runs around those exotic parts of the world getting malaria, dining on pretty bad food and learning to love mosquitoes but those who taste the coffees from their raw to their finished state once they have arrived in warehouses. I have only visited a dozen or so tasting rooms, those primarily in Italy and there can gladly report that since the mid-20th century tasting has indeed become an equal-opportunity situation. I cannot vouch for pay levels or colleagial relationships as they relate to the sexes but at least from my limited viewings women seem to be as well accepted and highly regarded professionally as men.

As to the wine industry – most of the critical tasting at wineries is done by winemakers and whatever consultants the winery may have employed. In this, the number of women winemakers and consultants has increased and continues to increase dramatically, to some extent in North America and to an even greater extent in Europe, this largely because young women are now free to study at the best universities for their first and second degrees in winemaking, then being accepted entirely on the basis of their skills and potential by even some of the best wineries.

As a point of possible interest, in addition to some of the now very well respected women winemakers of large wineries withinSpain, California and France, the place where women are making their greatest mark these days is in lesser known regions of France, Italy, Greece, Cyprus, Israel and Lebanon where, after returning from studies and doing stages (apprenticeships) in Europe or California they are returning to wineries that have been family owned and often moribound for many years and there demonstrating that some of these areas are capable of producing truly exciting wines (regions that come specifically to mind from recent visits are Valdadige and Alto Adige in Italy, the Peloponnes in Greece, and of course the Galilee in Israel.

Women are found more and more as well working for negotiants and as buyers for stores, chains and indeed in the wine departments of the most prestigious auction houses. And indeed, in Europe at least at least five of the ten most influential critic/tasters are women.

++++

With regard to the issue of sensual as opposed to analytical evaluation – the reason I discard this is precisely because that misconception is not based on use of language but on the same types of stereotypes that define some wines as masculine (e.g. hard, firm, with backbone, unyielding) and others as feminine (e.g. soft, gentle, caressing). Those terms do not, of course say anything about wines being masculine or feminine. They merely apply existing stereotypes in order to drop wines into a neat and easy little descriptive box.

[Daniel Rogov]

Anyone ever heard of a sex-segragated tasting panel?  Ten men and ten women, tatsing the same wines, with the each groups' results compared and contrasted?

←

Charles, Hello...

I do not know of any contolled tastings that have been done that way. In my own group however on several occasions we have done analyses of our tasting notes and scores according to sex or nationality. Althought these are far from generalizable findings, we found no significant differences based on either sex or nationality when it came to concurrence on tasting notes and scores.

On the other hand, when doing similar analyses comparing our personal likes or dislikes (as those have or should have no correlation whatever with our evaluations), variation was humongous but that based not on sex or nationality but largely (and this one makes me chuckle) on age. Hah.....those damned whipper-snappers don't know nuttin!!!

Edited August 5, 2005 by Daniel Rogov (log)

[Carrot Top]

Karen, Hi…

The true coffee taster is not the "guy" who runs around those exotic parts of the world getting malaria, dining on pretty bad food and learning to love mosquitoes but those who taste the coffees from their raw to their finished state once they have arrived in warehouses.

---------------------------------------------

And indeed, in Europe at least at least five of the ten most influential critic/tasters are women.

Mmm. The guys I knew were coffee traders, buying and selling from everywhere on the market exchange in the world "to" the large companies with the warehouses. . .they did do tastings from raw to finished product in the cupping room that sat next to their trading terminals, and this was certainly a large part of their job. . .to judge the capabilites that the green beans could be brought to display as they tried different variants of roasting them in the small roasters in the cupping rooms. . .this would finally, determine the price that would be offered for that bean on the commodities market.

Probably the running around to exotic places was just something they enjoyed doing as part of the whole thing . . .though often the trading room was filled with the sound of them jabbering variants of African languages, among others that were needed for possibly the "best" sort of negotiations or information from the field.

I do so love Zulu.

.................................................................

The five of the most influential women critics/tasters you mentioned. . .would you tell me their names?

[Carrot Top]

On the other hand, when doing similar analyses comparing our personal likes or dislikes (as those have or should have no correlation whatever with our evaluations), variation was humongous but that based not on sex or nationality but largely (and this one makes me chuckle) on age.  Hah.....those damned whipper-snappers don't know nuttin!!!

←

So, Rogov. . .what categories did the "old vs. young" tend to fall into?

Which varieties or types or specifics did the older people like. . .and which did the young prefer?

Curious. . .

[Daniel Rogov]

Karen, Hi Again.......

Considering my own age, let's not use the term "old"....... May I suggest "somewhat more mature" as less damaging to the ego.

If I had to make a comparative table it might look something like this:

Younger/More Mature

Viognier/ Sauvignon Blanc

Ice Wine/ Sauternes/Tokaj

Sherry/ Port

New World Cabernet Sauvignon/ Bordeaux

Pinot Noir w/out Brett/ Pinot Noir w/a hint of Brett

Alsace Riesling/ German Riesling

Oaked Chablis/ Unoaked Chablis

Provencal Rose/ Spanish Rose

Dislike for Rose Champagne/ Strong Liking for Rose Champagne

Dislike for Beaujolais Cru/ Strong liking for Beaujolais Cru

Krug/ Bollinger

That's about what comes to mind at the moment. Do keep in mind of course that ours is a small, self-selected group, mostly European by birth and that these differences have no statistical significance whatever. All in the name of good fun in this case.

Edited August 5, 2005 by Daniel Rogov (log)

[Carolyn Tillie]

The Slate Article mentions our own Rebel Rose!

Way to go, Mary!

BTW, I really biting my tongue on this one as I am currently involved in a women-owned winery consortium and am in the middle of writing my own article on women in the industry for a women's business magazine...

[Rebel Rose]

First, I’d like to thank everyone who has posted here for offering input on the direction of our fledgling project. Many of the comments made so far have been insightful and eloquent. Based on your suggestions, here are some followup notes on the WWCB’s proposed purpose and planned actitivities. Please feel free to add your comments, criticism and advice at any time. These plans are not cast in stone yet, so here is your opportunity to influence the future of wine and fine dining!

Second, I’d like to thank Mike Steinberger of Slate Magazine for also asking some very insightful questions, which in turn forced me to sharpen my pencil on these issues.

Here are some thoughts on the direction of the Women’s Wine Critics Board. Until harvest winds down, the founders probably won’t have much opportunity to discuss these ideas in depth, but you can bet that after that last ton is crushed we’ll be meeting for a glass of wine. Or two, or three . . . which is how we get into all this trouble in the first place.

The core group consists of only seven or eight of us. We are all women winemakers except for Jan and myself. (I produce my own label but don’t consider myself a ‘real’ winemaker because I don’t have the daily decisions, pressures, and risk that the other winemakers face.) We will continue to clarify our mission and keep the core group small for now, and we will launch a Women’s Wine Critics blogsite later this month and invite other critics, journalists and readers to join us there.

The other members of the founding group include:

Signe Zoller, formerly with Meridian and now head winemaker at Templeton Wine Services, San Francisco Chronicle article on women and wine

Molly Bohlman, Vina Robles

Lisa Pretty, Pretty-Smith Vineyards & Winery

Amy Butler, Edward Sellers Wines

Elaine Villamin, Eden Canyon

Jan Manni, owner of The Wine Attic in Paso Robles

As women wine producers, we would like to see more women involved in the field of wine criticism. Whether they publish as independent critics, journalists, columnists, or essayists, we feel that the field of wine criticism is under-represented by women.

It’s interesting to note that major food publications like Food & Wine and Bon Appetit have wine contributors who are women. Leslie Sbrocco, Andrea Immer, and Lettie Teague, among many others, are highly regarded wine writers. However, we feel that their influence has been colored by the media toward “householding” consumers into wine. We want to see women establish a toehold as fearsome wine tasting talents and critics.

However, thanks to input from our male compatriots here and elsewhere, I don’t see our group as focusing solely on women. I hope that our group will be perceived as inviting and mentoring alternate voices and methods of criticism.

How do we feel about scores? That was one of the first things we all agreed upon. A numerical score can convey a wine’s technical accuracy or style, and we do find them useful, but scores emphasize cataloguing wine, as opposed to experiencing wine. In our first tasting, we scored each wine on many levels, including clarity, aroma, flavors and finish, but we were also looking for versatility, food-friendliness, and the “romance factor.” We’re not trying to usurp the system. We’re trying to enrich the market by encouraging women to join in wine criticism and to express their views in their own voice.

Although many women are achieving recognition as wine producers, retailers, sommeliers and critics, there is still a gender gap that exists in the wine marketing media. Sure, some of it’s fun, but the overall message of pink labels and silly names conveys that wine needs to be dumbed down for women. Why? Women are already the stronger buying gender in the wine industry. There is a whole market segment of women who are looking for substantial wines, wine information, and values. That market is not being successfully addressed.

Our group hopes to meet monthly (except during harvest) and choose a particular varietal to explore at each meeting as a panel. When choosing varietals, we will also take into account the six to eight month lead time that national magazines require. For instance, our first tasting this summer was on domestic and foreign rieslings—as either a summer food wine or a Thanksgiving pairing. We’ll be looking at what information we can provide, as women winemakers, to women’s magazines and media.

We’re not going to focus on scoring wines, and it wouldn’t be appropriate for us to do peer reviews anyway. But we will do a monthly wine tasting and we will be looking for outstanding wines that we feel deserve better representation in stores and restaurants. We’d also like to develop a mailing list of restaurants. (In fact, it was a male customer who suggested that we include a focus on restaurants.) We’ll be making recommendations for wines that we agree are excellent and a good value.

In addition to the WWCB blogsite, we’d like to work closely with women’s wine magazines like Wine Adventure and focus groups like Women for WineSense to develop insightful articles that inform wine buyers with intermediate experience. There is also some strong writing in the wineblog community, and we’d like to invite other wine journalists and bloggers to contribute to our site as authors.

Membership is something that has been suggested, but we have no real idea yet as to interest or criteria.

Edited to add: If you would like to subscribe to the blog and monthly enews, please email us at wwcb@tcsn.net.

Comments, questions, advice?

[Rebel Rose]

We now have a blogsite: Women Wine Critics Board and email, wwcb@tcsn.net

We have our first subscribers, and we're off and rolling. So far, there is only a brief welcome message on the site. I hope to add more material after this week, but if anyone has any questions or comments, please feel free to add them here.

[jsolomon]

So at this point we were, and on most of these points still are, confronted with the following questions:

Who are the founding members?

What is our goal?

Who is our audience?

How best to reach them?

Should we include other women winemakers, critics, and writers?

How will we decide which varietals or regions to taste?

Can we taste and review wines from our own region without encountering peer resentment?

How and where can we publish and release our reviews?

What other information or insights can we provide?

Why in the heck are we doing this?

What do we expect to personally gain or contribute?

Will anybody really care?

And most importantly, can we still have fun, be feminine, and be taken seriously?

More to follow, but in the meantime . . . thoughts, anyone?

←

I apologize about jumping on the bandwagon late. The turnip truck broke down and I had to hitch on the hayrack.

I'll give my hope for your second question. I want the females at restaurant table with me to feel as comfortable ordering a bottle of wine from a list of unfamiliar wines as I (a male) am.

I see this as wine consumption in a social setting in the US has deep roots in the socio-sexual roles of dominance (typically seen as masculine) and submissiveness (typically seen as feminine). This is exhibited in wine choice by the men typically ordering the wine per expectation while on a date with little constructive help from the partner (or worse a proscription of "nothing weird"--GRR!).

Perhaps an additional hanger-on for number two would be a reduction in the sexualization of wine. I don't want to think I'm buying wine so I can make the beast with two backs (yay Shakespeare). I want to think I'm buying the wine because it's tasty, traditional, and a damned fine complement to what I'm doing when I drink it.

Perhaps some kind of media campaign where you show wine by a glass of milk with the tag line "Yes, it's that fundamental."

[Rebel Rose]

Jso, you are always a breath of fresh and fragrant air from the midwest, reminding us that we are not all so fortunate as to live on the west coast wine corridor, where one can road trip Sideways-style from Baja to British Columbia, or on the east coast, where European imports are plentiful and reasonably priced.

Your point is well made. There is still a huge geographical swath of the United States where wine consumption is an intimidating experience. Restaurants with wine lists still ignore women and women's tastes, and on the other hand, women still do not have enough confidence on their own to say, "what I'd really like is an Oregon pinot noir with this dish, but as I see your wine list does not include any, would you please ask the chef for his wine recommendation?"

Indeed, there are still places here in central California, and in my home state of Washington where I cannot order a glass of zinfandel, and not have the waiter say, "Well, you know, that is a red zinfandel and not a white?" Especially if I'm wearing the ponytail, jeans and boyfriend shirt ensemble, which is also when I'm most inclined to forget my ladylike manners and squash said waiter like a beetle.

I will pass your request on, with considerable enthusiasm, to the group.

There are a lot of great women wine writers and reviewers out there, but they don't seem to be reaching a demographic of women who would appreciate wine confidence-building skills.

[jsolomon]

Jso, you are always a breath of fresh and fragrant air from the midwest,

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Sorry, I'll change my boots before I post next time