Fresh lemon and lime juices

[MikeInSacto]

Hi everyone -

I have a question for you knowledgeable barkeeps. Are there significant differences in lemons and limes based on regions or particular types of fruit? I ask because when mixing drinks, I seem to get much more sourness out of the lemons and limes than tastes appropriate. Something like a margarita or a chapala inevitably comes out way too sour if I use the proportions specified in the books I have. They don't just taste this way to me - my friends and family confirm this as well. I live in Northern California, so the fruit is always fresh. I buy whatever I get at the grocery store, so I'm not talking limons or Meyer lemons or anything like that.

This is more a matter of curiousity than anything else - I've gotten to the point where I can adjust most recipes to take this into account. Still, does anyone have any idea on what this is all about?

BTW, this is an amazing forum for a total amateur to stumble into. Hope I'm not asking something that's been covered a hundred times in previous posts. I tried searching but could not come up with anything. Thanks in advance for any ideas on this.

Mike

[slkinsey]

Mike, what recipes are you using? Can you give an example?

I have often thought that limes "back in the day" must have been substantially smaller than the limes we have today. So late 19th/early 20th century recipes that call for "the juice of half a lime" do often seem to produce a drink that is too sour (doubly odd, since most drinks from that era are too sweet for modern tastes).

I suppose it also depends on your own expectations and your own taste. If you make a Margarita at 2:1:1 (tequila:Cointreau:fresh lime juice) you will have a fairly tart, dry drink. I happen to like this ratio quite a bit, and I enjoy the fact that it's not a sweet drink. If this isn't to your liking, you might try a 3:2:1 Margarita. This is too sweet for me, and features the Cointreau a bit too much for my taste, but a lot of people who know their cocktails prefer a 3:2:1 Margarita. The fact remains, however, that even a 3:2:1 Margarita is unlikely to be as sweet as what most people expect.

There is, of course, some variation in the sourness of limes, lemons, etc. Key limes, of course, are significantly more sour than Persian limes. But even within Persian limes, I'm sure there is some variation. It's possible (although I don't know) that the sourness of limes decreases as they age off the tree. If this is true, and if you are getting fresh local limes (unlikely except for May - August), this might explain why your drinks are turning out too sour.

Anyway... why don't you give us a few examples of the recipes you're finding too sour?

[MikeInSacto]

Mike, what recipes are you using?  Can you give an example?

I have often thought that limes "back in the day" must have been substantially smaller than the limes we have today.  So late 19th/early 20th century recipes that call for "the juice of half a lime" do often seem to produce a drink that is too sour (doubly odd, since most drinks from that era are too sweet for modern tastes).

I suppose it also depends on your own expectations and your own taste.  If you make a Margarita at 2:1:1 (tequila:Cointreau:fresh lime juice) you will have a fairly tart, dry drink.  I happen to like this ratio quite a bit, and I enjoy the fact that it's not a sweet drink.  If this isn't to your liking, you might try a 3:2:1 Margarita.  This is too sweet for me, and features the Cointreau a bit too much for my taste, but a lot of people who know their cocktails prefer a 3:2:1 Margarita.  The fact remains, however, that even a 3:2:1 Margarita is unlikely to be as sweet as what most people expect.

There is, of course, some variation in the sourness of limes, lemons, etc.  Key limes, of course, are significantly more sour than Persian limes.  But even within Persian limes, I'm sure there is some variation.  It's possible (although I don't know) that the sourness of limes decreases as they age off the tree.  If this is true, and if you are getting fresh local limes (unlikely except for May - August), this might explain why your drinks are turning out too sour.

Anyway... why don't you give us a few examples of the recipes you're finding too sour?

←

Sure! One we make often is Planter's Punch, from a recipe in Anthony Dias Blue's "The Complete Book of Mixed Drinks". It calls for the following:

2 oz rum

1 1/2 oz orange juice

1 1/2 oz pineapple juice

3/4 oz lemon or lime juice

1/4 oz grenadine

(It's not the best Planter's Punch, but it's a simple weeknight thing that requires little thought or special ingredients.) Anyway, it seems too sour at these proportions. Throttling back on the lemon or lime (by maybe a teaspoon or so) brings it much more into balance, to my taste.

As another example, I made margaritas a while back out of DeGroff's "The Craft of the Cocktail". It uses 3:2:1.5, and I think your idea of the 3:2:1 would have been better. Again, the balance just didn't seem to be there.

I suppose my wife and I may just be sensitive to sour things, but this seems to be a common thread for us.

Thanks very much for the reply!

[EDIT] Forgot to add that I will ask the plant-oriented people I know if lemons or limes are likely to get less sour once they're off the tree. If that's the case, then that might be a factor. Good thought, in any case.

Mike

Edited May 18, 2005 by MikeInSacto (log)

[eje]

I imagine the flavor of limes and lemons changes as the season progresses. Early season oranges are certainly much different from late season ones. In my experience citrus also continues to ripen after it is picked, so lemons probably sweeten to a certain extent off the tree, as well. It is also possible, if you are getting farmers' market lemons, that Northern CA lemons are just not going to be as sweet as the hot weather lemons from Florida or SoCal.

I did try making an aviation recently with local lemons and found it to be rather overpoweringly sour. I had chalked it up to incorrect measuring; but, perhaps it was the tartness of the lemon juice.

I find the smell of Meyer Lemon oils and zest to be unappealing in cocktails. They have a gamey thyme-like odor that really bugs me. I stick to Lisbon and Eureka lemons.

[ronnie_suburban]

Without discussing varietals, hybrids, etc., lemons from California and Mexico generally have a higher brix level (soluble solids) than lemons from South America or Arizona. This means they will taste sweeter than their counterparts. They contain less moisture and more fruit solids. That said, there are also seasonal issues that will affect flavor. Lemon trees in the U.S. typically have 3-4 blossoms a year with the late fall blossom period (which translates into an October-November harvest time) producing the sweetest fruit.

With limes, the standard variety available in the U.S., persian (aka tahitian) come primarily from Mexico. While limes do come into the U.S. from Mexico year-round, the peak season for them is June-September. During these months, soluble solids are generally higher and the fruit is therefore, generally sweeter.

=R=

[MikeInSacto]

Thanks for the replies, everyone! I'll start paying more attention to the seasons and to where the fruit's coming from. I can't imagine that the majority around here doesn't come from Caifornia, but stranger produce-related things have happened....

Mike

[JAZ]

I happened to see key limes at the store today, so I picked up a bag. I'm trying a side-by-side comparison of margaritas made with Persian and key limes. I tasted the juices separately first, and noticed a slight difference in the taste, but not really in the acid level, although that's rather hard to gauge accurately just by taste, of course.

In the drink (2-1-1 proportions), the key lime is much sharper and almost overpowers the drink. The Persian lime (what I ordinarily use) results in a much better balanced and rounder drink, for my tastes at least. I'm not sure if it's the flavor or the acid level

Interestingly, the key lime reminds me of the flavor of Rose's lime juice (which I happen to like, in certain applications). Makes me wonder if a Gimlet made with fresh key lime juice and simple syrup might make an interesting experiment.

[MikeInSacto]

Key limes have just started showing up here as well. I had thought of trying some in cocktails, so it's good to know they're a little stronger than Persian limes. Thanks!

Mike

[JAZ]

I find the smell of Meyer Lemon oils and zest to be unappealing in cocktails.  They have a gamey thyme-like odor that really bugs me.  I stick to Lisbon and Eureka lemons.

←

While I agree that they don't fill in for regular lemons, I do like them in some drinks. I think Meyer lemon juice and Lillet have a great affinity, for example. If you like a dry, slightly herbal drink, try my "After School Special" -- 2 oz. gin, 1 oz Lillet (blond), 1/4 oz. Meyer lemon juice with either a dash of orange bitters or (my new preference) green Chartreuse. Shake and serve up.

And I sometimes use a citrus blend with two parts lime juice, two parts Meyer lemon juice and one part orange juice as an alternative to straight lime juice in Margaritas.

[DrinkBoy]

Speaking of fresh jucies...

Does anybody have any "rules" for how long fresh juice stays... well... "fresh".

If you "had" to prep up an amount of juice ahead of time, how soon would you insist on dumping it, and preping up a new batch?

-Robert

[slkinsey]

Certainly made the same day, but I would think well refrigerated fresh citrus juice in a closed container with minimal exposure to the air (i.e., small surface area) can stay in reasonable condition up to 12 hours. My personal experience is that orange juice is the most perishable, perhaps because it isn't as acidic as lemon or lime. There really is no substitute for fresh-squeezed orange juice.

[bostonapothecary]

so i really love a tart drink.

and for some reason i prefer lemons to limes. my understanding is that lemons have a lower PH making them tarter but i don't really think that ends the differences.

limes just seem to taste really aggressive in a drink.

do limes have more extract (not sugar, not acid) dissolved into their juice than lemons?

is this why despite their higher PH they are more aggressive?

what is happening to my tongue?

[eje]

[...]

what is happening to my tongue?

←

"Way out in the water,

See it swimmin' ?"

Everything about taste is so subjective and relative, it's hard to believe there is any consensus at all about what type of balance constitutes a proper sour.

Or, even jigger pouring the same recipe, how little over or under pour can completely change the character of a drink. It's really fun to sit in the lounge at Heaven's Dog and try to guess which bartender made your drink.

[bostonapothecary]

[...]

what is happening to my tongue?

←

"Way out in the water,

See it swimmin' ?"

Everything about taste is so subjective and relative, it's hard to believe there is any consensus at all about what type of balance constitutes a proper sour.

Or, even jigger pouring the same recipe, how little over or under pour can completely change the character of a drink. It's really fun to sit in the lounge at Heaven's Dog and try to guess which bartender made your drink.

←

there is also the objective... i think there is too much extract. i wish i could find some analysis.

i feel the need to articulate why (to myself at least), lime has affinity for something or not.

if subjectively i don't get very far i'd love to see how it compares to something objectively... a pattern may emerge.

[Alchemist]

I have been struggling for some time to articulate the difference between lemon and lime. They are both tart, there is sour (as well as sweet) charicteristics to them. There is bitterness if lime oil gets into the juice or they have been out too long.

Brightness is a term I use for describing lemon juice and oil, and orange oil. I find that lemon helps accentuate the other ingredients in the cocktail where lime binds them for a more seamless experiance. Does that make sense?

Some rhetorical questions on the nature of lemon and lime.

I wonder what a Ramos would be like with all lemon or all lime?

Why do I like Pisco Sours with lemon not lime?

Why do as a rule brown spirits not go as well with lime as lemon?

Why are there seeds in lemons and not limes?

Is hell going to be squeezing lemon juice forever with a deep cut on each finger?

Toby

[slkinsey]

I'm not sure how much difference the pH of the juice makes so much as the total acidity of the juice when it gets into the drink. Similarly, I don't know that I think the sugar content of the juice makes a huge difference, within reasonable boundaries, since the acidity will be balanced by sweetness and other flavors in the drink anyway. These all can make a huge difference in drinking the juice all on it's own, but that's a different story.

Lemon juice and lime juice are remarkably similar in their acid content. Lemon juice contains around 1.44 grams of citric acid and 0.014 grams of ascorbic acid per fluid ounce, whereas lime juice contains around 1.38 grams of citric acid and 0.009 grams of ascorbic acid per fluid ounce.

Other than the slight difference in ascorbic acid content, they are quite similar. So, then, the main difference between these two juices will be the aromatic compounds they bring to the table.

My overall feeling is that lemon juice has the unique ability of being able to provide bright acidity to a cocktail and yet withdrawing into the background. A Sidecar, for example, does not scream "LEMON!" To highlight the clear presence of lemon, we need a lemon peel twisted over the surface of the drink. A Daiquiri, on the other hand, certainly does say "LIME" loud and clear. Lime juice, I feel, is overall more assertive and its flavors (really aromas, I suppose) tend to "cut" in a way that lemon juice does not.

[bostonapothecary]

Other than the slight difference in ascorbic acid content, they are quite similar.  So, then, the main difference between these two juices will be the aromatic compounds they bring to the table.

←

but do you think the big difference in their aromatic compounds is the amount present in the juice? limes probably have more but by how much?

[slkinsey]

I don't understand the question. Do I think the difference in their aromatic compounds is substantially due to the difference in the acid concentrations? No. I imagine that you could spike some lemon juice with a touch of acetic acid, and it would still taste and behave like lemon juice. But it might be worth trying. It's possible that a difference of 0.005 grams per ounce of ascorbic acid could be primarily responsible for the difference. I just don't think that it is.

Rather, I think that it's a well understood fact that different aromatic compounds have different properties and different thresholds of sensitivity and different volatility, etc. And I think that a lemon has a lot of aromatic compounds that a lime doesn't have, and vice-versa. And I think it's possible that one has a greater concentration of certain aromatic compounds than the other. Or perhaps that this works both ways. And I think that is what is responsible for the difference. Complex, but ultimately simple. They taste different because they taste different.

Edited May 29, 2009 by slkinsey (log)

[bostonapothecary]

I don't understand the question.  Do I think the difference in their aromatic compounds is substantially due to the difference in the acid concentrations?  No.  I imagine that you could spike some lemon juice with a touch of acetic acid, and it would still taste and behave like lemon juice.  But it might be worth trying.  It's possible that a difference of 0.005 grams per ounce of ascorbic acid could be primarily responsible for the difference.  I just don't think that it is.

Rather, I think that it's a well understood fact that different aromatic compounds have different properties and different thresholds of sensitivity and different volatility, etc.  And I think that a lemon has a lot of aromatic compounds that a lime doesn't have, and vice-versa.  And I think it's possible that one has a greater concentration of certain aromatic compounds than the other.  Or perhaps that this works both ways.  And I think that is what is responsible for the difference.  Complex, but ultimately simple.  They taste different because they taste different.

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i'm pretty sure you can more or less rule out sugar and acidity for why they are so different.

harold mcgee's "flavor notes in some citrus fruits" table from "on food an cooking" describes lemons and limes as both possessing limonene, pinene, and terpinen. the table shows that limes alone also possess "spicy (other terpenoids)"

so they are sort of similar but limes have some extra complexity. all these compounds make up the flavor extract and i bet limes have more of it than lemons.

[slkinsey]

Maybe. Maybe not. It's difficult to say without being able (a) to see a chemical analysis of the components of lemon and lime juice, along with their various concentrations; and (b) to have, or be given an understanding of the properties of the various components identified in the analysis.

[bostonapothecary]

Maybe.  Maybe not.  It's difficult to say without being able (a) to see a chemical analysis of the components of lemon and lime juice, along with their various concentrations; and (b) to have, or be given an understanding of the properties of the various components identified in the analysis.

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exactly. any clue on who could give us some insight? i feel like there is a citrus farmer out there that would know and could condense it to a simple explanation.

i have a feeling that its just like extract in wine. of course there are ridiculous amounts of compounds but when people say its over extracted it just means there is too much of all of them to be elegant...

not that limes are over extracted. they are probably just being themselves. but if there is a difference in their juice relative to lemons it may elude to a pattern for good affinities.

[nickrey]

Interesting questions.

Consulting flavor-base (website for this resource here), the flavor profiles of limes and lemons share many aspects.

It is the differences between the two that contain the source of where their varying taste affinities sit.

Paraphrasing their descriptors, lemons differ from limes in being floral, mossy, waxy, fatty, and herbaceous.

Limes, on the other hand, differ from lemons in being minty, pine, woody, camphorous, spicy.

[slkinsey]

i have a feeling that its just like extract in wine. of course there are ridiculous amounts of compounds but when people say its over extracted it just means there is too much of all of them to be elegant...

My understanding is that "over extracted" in wine means that the wine has been left on the skin and pulp for too long, thereby extracting too much flavor and other compounds from the skin and pulp.

[bostonapothecary]

i have a feeling that its just like extract in wine. of course there are ridiculous amounts of compounds but when people say its over extracted it just means there is too much of all of them to be elegant...

My understanding is that "over extracted" in wine means that the wine has been left on the skin and pulp for too long, thereby extracting too much flavor and other compounds from the skin and pulp.

←

not necessarily. i think most people use the term to encompass yields that are too low and grapes that are too ripe. too much flavor in one wine. sometimes they gotta run the garden hose into the tanks to dilute it a little...

its a problem in the wine industry. the wines are just too intense obscuring a lot of nuance. some cocktails have the same problem.