Coffee

[jaybee]

A couple of months ago we discussed Grimes NYT rave review of the coffee at the cafe at the Neue Museum.  We were told it came from Meinl in Vienna.  Yesterday mornng I placed an order with Meinl through their website for several varieites of their beans, not knowing which were the prized ones.  The order arrived this morning!!!, yes that's right, this morning, from Vienna.  I will try the blends and report back on my experience with them.  The shipping costs amount to $2 per pound if eight pounds are ordered.  The beans range from $7 to $8 minus 20% VAT.  The end price is equivalent to Starbucks or Peets premium coffees, maybe less.  Stay tuned, java heads.  I also ordered two jars of their preserves.  They sounded good.

[Charles Smith]

Looking forward to the report-

what's the website url?

[glenn]

Looking forward to the report-

what's the website url?

Click here for Meinl

It's uncanny.... I placed an order over the weekend and rec'd it Tuesday.  Haven't had a chance to try it yet, still finishing up my graffeo.

[jaybee]

It's uncanny.... I placed an order over the weekend and rec'd it Tuesday.  Haven't had a chance to try it yet, still finishing up my graffeo.

Funny coincidence.  I bought the President and King Hadhramaut blends.  What did you buy?

...And will you grind the beans with your new toy?

[glenn]

Funny coincidence.  I bought the President and King Hadhramaut blends.  What did you buy?

I got the King Hadhramaut, 4 500g bags.  That seems to be the premium blend.  I love the graffeo and if it's at least as good, I'll be one happy camper, or at least almost tolerable to deal with in the morning.

...And will you grind the beans with your new toy?

Nah, think I'll try it the old fashioned way, with a sledgehammer   .  Speaking of which, I love the Rocky and am now tempted to get an espresso machine, though the Grimes article made me think twice about that, not to mention being scared off by Steve and Bux.  I've also been practicing making espresso at work where whe have a professional machine and haven't come close to perfection... we use Lav... beans, or whatever it's called.  I do have a couple of gripes about the rocky --- i had to detach the cup holder since I'm not using it for espresso and put a bowl underneath the doser... it really detracts from its appearance, not to mention it's a bit of a hassle.  More importantly, and I don't know if this is typical with the Rocky, I have to give it a shake or 2 while it's grinding to get all the beans to grind.  I hope this is not harming the machine.

[rockefeller666]

okay guys, start brewing!  you're keeping us in suspense!!!!

[jaybee]

First report on Meinl coffee:  made a pot (French Press) of

President blend: 24 oz water, nine tablespoons of coffee fresh ground medium-fine.  Plunged after 3 1/2 minutes.  Coffee has nice bite and acidity, mild, good flavor, rich aromatc smell, nice finish with no bitterness.  on a scale of 1-10, an 8.  I think I got the proportions right, so next time I will plunge after 5 minutes and see if it makes a difference.  Definitley a "breakfast" blend.  Too mild for later in the day.

[Steve Klc]

I have to shake mine, too, usually as the beans age a bit.

Lavazza stinks.  The fact that you like Graffeo is a very positive sign.  Now you are experimenting with the professional machine at work.  Another very good sign.  You are on your way.

Why did the Grimes article make you think twice about getting a machine?  Because so many people around town are not doing a good job making espressos?  If anything, the Grimes article crystallizes what a few of us have been saying on eGullet since the site debuted--if you like espresso you have to make it yourself.  end of story.

And once again, I have to ask, why did Bux and I scare you off from getting a machine?  It is so obvious you want to, dare I say, need to that you must be the only person around here who doesn't realize this yet.  Continue to play with the machine at work, try to identify what variable(s) you are not completely understanding--and we'll talk you through it. When you're ready, give yourself over to the dark side and join us.

Jaybee and glenn--have you been using the French press?

[jaybee]

Jaybee and glenn--have you been using the French press?

You were typing while I was posting my report (above). Yes, it is my method of choice when I am making coffee for one or two people. (How long do you wait before plunging)?  I bought the Bodum Santos automatic vacuum brew for larger batches, but haven't got the proportions right yet.  it is capable of making an astonishing cup of coffee (once) but I don't recall exactly what proportions of grounds and water I used.  I am thinking of getting one of those insulated French presses, so I don't have to transfer the coffee from the press to a carafe to have more than one cup hot.  Have you tried them?

[Steve Klc]

No jaybee, I haven't tried either the vacuum style or the insulated press version; my use of the French press is down to about .005% of the time.  So you'd be covering good ground helpful to me and others around here if you continued to report back on your travails.  Depending on my mood I think I wait at least 4 minutes and perhaps longer sometimes--and like others have mentioned, I think John Whiting, I just do small batches each time I want a cup or two rather than doing a large amount in a large press.

[vic]

Can you tell me more about the "French Press"?  I recall reading that there was some safety concern, compared to using filters.  Is it significant for someone who makes 4+ cups of coffee a day?

[jaybee]

Can you tell me more about the "French Press"?  I recall reading that there was some safety concern, compared to using filters.  Is it significant for someone who makes 4+ cups of coffee a day?

I never heard anything negative.  I use it for two or three cup batches.  It produces the tastiest coffee if used right.  Proportion and timing are critical and produce diffeent results if varied.

[jaybee]

Well, after all that I had to go to Café Sabarsky today for lunch (and coffee).  I ordered a "melange" which is brewed coffee with schlagg (whipped cream). It was good but too mild for my taste.  A second cup with out the cream was better.  The beans they use are called "Hotel Blend" and are probably available from Meinl for home use.  I also had a piece of Linzer torte.  Good but not the best I've had.  The cheese plate my table companion had was excellent.  Bread plate is very good.

The place is spectacular.  They have cabaret on Friday evenings, preceded by a prix fixed dinner.  Songs of Berlin of the 20s and 30s. Sounds like a great evening.  (Dinner and perfomance $95).

[glenn]

I have to shake mine, too, usually as the beans age a bit.

Lavazza stinks.  The fact that you like Graffeo is a very positive sign.  Now you are experimenting with the professional machine at work.  Another very good sign.  You are on your way.

Why did the Grimes article make you think twice about getting a machine?  Because so many people around town are not doing a good job making espressos?  If anything, the Grimes article crystallizes what a few of us have been saying on eGullet since the site debuted--if you like espresso you have to make it yourself.  end of story.

And once again, I have to ask, why did Bux and I scare you off from getting a machine?  It is so obvious you want to, dare I say, need to that you must be the only person around here who doesn't realize this yet.  Continue to play with the machine at work, try to identify what variable(s) you are not completely understanding--and we'll talk you through it. When you're ready, give yourself over to the dark side and join us.

Jaybee and glenn--have you been using the French press?

Basically, I am a slow learner (read -- idiot) when it comes to anything mechanical.  Add lack of patience to my character defects.  Both are not endearing qualities to the espresso making ritual.  Having said that, I have come a lot further than I ever thought I would in producing a shot --- the mere fact that I was able to do so and have it come out passable (as good as the designated busboy makes it) amazes me.  However, the Grimes article made me realize that there is so much more involved to making a great shot.  Jeez, I never in a million years would've thunk the cup needed to be preheated until I read the Grimes article.  [i don't believe he mentioned how you heat the cup -- is it "permissible" to nuke it, or do you have to put it on the cup warmer on the machine?]  And the pressure??  I thought the machine took care of this??  But I guess not.  At  least not entirely.

You and Bux "scared" me off from getting a machine similarly to the Grimes article -- you laid it on the line, that espresso making is not for a lazy ass like myself who doesn't have the patience to go through learning the scientific process and then learning the "art".  But I am coming around, slowly but surely.  Since our previous discussion, I have been much more discerning and critical of the coffee and espresso I drink, and my taste buds have become more sophisticated.  In the past, I'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between shots, and I don't think I ever really thought about it that much.  I never knew such a world existed.  But now that I've had some excellent shots, I can appreciate good espresso.  I've become snobbish and refuse to order espresso or coffee from just anywhere.  Yes, I want very much to get a machine, and it's very much on my mind, but at this point I don't have either the patience to completely embrace myself in the science of espresso making and then all the experimentation that will follow. And if I do muster the motivation, I'm not sure I could maintain such enthusiasm - my fear is I'll have yet another coffee "device" sitting in my kitchen cabinet gathering dust.

I dunno.  Right now I'm kicking around the idea of having our sales rep from the coffee company come in to give me a lesson or two.  What's particularly irksome is my inabiltiy to produce a shot with the crema just right.  [is levazza that bad?  should i get them to change?]

I use the French press regularly.  I've got the graffeo (dark) down to a science --- about 55 grams for 28 oz. of water, and plunge after 3:40.  The rocky helps immensely.. I've got it on the coarsest setting and that seems perfect.

[jaybee]

Glenn:  I bought a manual expresso machine from Zabars.  Expensive but it makes delicious coffee.  I didn't know my filter from my elbow when I started, but it is pretty simple.  Don't miss the pleasure just because you think it is complicated.  It's not.  Just be open to trial and error until you get it right.  I made no fewer than a dozen tart tatins until I got the technioque right.  Now I can do it in my sleep (make tarts that is)  

[rockefeller666]

Jaybee--

That's very interesting that you thought the Cafe Sabarsky coffee not strong enough.  I have been a long time complainer of New York coffee, and I actually thought Cafe Sabarsky coffee quite good.  That's very interesting, since this whole meinl thread is based off that  Sabarsky one.  But if you don't think it's strong enough, then perhaps it's not all that it's cracked up to be.

I have a question regarding the comparison.  Have you ever tried Peet's coffee?  What do you think of the meinl compared to the Peet's?  Do you think it's worth ordering?

[Bux]

Lavazza stinks.

Now you tell me.

We've been pretty happy with the Danesi Gold, but haven't been able to get it for a while, so we've been trying other coffees and have not been pleased. Went to Dean and Deluca and found our Danesi Gold (100% Arabica) but it was two and a half times the price we had been paying, so we thought we'd try the Lavazza 100% Arabica. First cup was disppointing and crema-less. Esilda figured she was careless. Perhaps not. Breakfast will tell. Does anyone in the NY area use Danesi Gold? Where do you get it and what do you pay?

[ahr]

Quoting from an MSNBC article that I came across about a year ago, there may be health reasons to avoid coffee machines that do not employ paper filters:

"There are chemicals in coffee — cafestol and kahweol — that can raise cholesterol levels, but a paper filter in the coffee-making process removes those chemicals. So the way you brew your coffee is important. Be warned: these compounds cannot be filtered out in French press, Greek and Turkish coffee, also in boiled and Scandinavian coffee."

A Google search on “cafestol and kahweol” turns up a load of similar articles, e.g., this one from Science News.

At the risk of being labeled a primitive and banned for life (no, that’s some other board), I’ll throw in my own coffee preferences:

I grind in an old Krups burr mill, brew in an old Krups four-cup electric drip with Melitta brown filters, and use about three tablespoons of finely ground Garden of Eden house-blend decaf, measured as beans, to 10 ounces of water.

I’ve tried most of the decafs that I’ve come across in the city — Dean and Deluca, La Colombe, La Semeuse, Oren’s, Peet’s, Porto Rico, Whole Foods, Zabar’s, that place on Broadway at about 112th, and innumerable others — but GoE remains my favorite, and a relative bargain to boot.

The vaunted Peet’s, recently available at Gourmet Garage, came as a particular disappointment.  The beans are beautiful — fresh, dark, and oily — but I’m unmoved by the brew.  The body is fine, but the taste consists solely of slight char, like a muted Starbuck’s, with little else in the way of flavor or acidity.

[Peter B Wolf]

I have to chime in. This thread was started as "Coffee", especially "Meinl".

OK, lets please distinguish between "Espresso" and other coffees.

Coffee beans, selected by species, type, country of origin and "roast" for "Espresso" making, do not lend themselves well for other coffee brewing methods. Meinl lists only one espresso bean on their site. I have no idea how this will compare with known (unknown) brands of espresso beans, like Lavazza, Illy and many others. And that is not the issue.

The issue is making coffee, using a french press or other method, or making espresso.

So, I think, maybe just for some of the not so well informed gulleteers, we should discuss "Coffee" making and "Espresso" making on separate threads. Each one promoting all the pros and cons of all, to include beans, grinders, roasts, and other equipment as well measurements, time and temperatures.

Ok, if anyone thinks I am wrong; I will shut up for the next six months (or less?).

[Sandra Levine]

I'm wondering about the similarity of the Meinl's coffee at Cafe Sabarsky to Yrgacheffe at Dean & DeLuca.  I regret that I do not remember the name of the roaster.  D & D's Yrgacheffe is a Viennese roast, Ethiopian (E. African, as described for Cafe Sabarsky) bean.  When I worked there, it was by far the most popular seller, at about $12 lb., then, $15 lb. now.  

Yrgacheffe has a very full body and deep, almost chocolatey flavor, with an impression of rather low acidity.  It's smooth as satin, but without brightness. Has anyone tasted both D & D's Yrgacheffe and Cafe Sabarsky's blend?  Not tht going to the Cafe Sabarsky myself would be such a chore...

[Steve Klc]

Peter--the Graffeo Dark roast blend that I use for espresso now is the same that I used in the French press for all those years. And Yvonne, I, too, was a fan of Yergacheffe in the press--acidic, clean, flowery and winey--though I never tried the D & D style.

Peter's right in seeking clear distinctions but there is no clear answer.  The best method to make coffee depends on how one chooses to define coffee--to define what coffee means to them.  

And depending on style and preference, I have seen espresso roasts much lighter than dark roasts destined for the press.  Depends whether you're talking Northern Italy, Southern Italy, Seattle, etc.  And I have enjoyed lighter roasts in my Sylvia for espresso and not enjoyed the same roast in the press; the inverse is also true:  each method of preparation emphasizes or clouds certain traits, and each grind setting does the same.

Which is why this is such a voyage of discovery for each individual.

[rockefeller666]

peter b wolf--

I agree with you wholeheartedly.  There have been times on which I've reported about coffee--and how it sucked--and others would chime in with their espresso experiences.  I don't think there is any comparison, and they should be discussed separately.  Plain old filter coffee is highly highly variable from place to place/bean to bean/maker to maker.  But espresso is much more constant relatively.  Sometimes I notice some espresso that sucks, but for the most part, espresso tastes quite the same to me.

[rockefeller666]

Jaybee & Glenn--

So what is the word with the meinl?  Thumbs up or thumbs down?  Give us your opinion?  Should I go out and buy some meinl?  I was thinking about it.  I personally like great coffee, just the plain old filtered stuff.  I don't make espresso, nor do I have a desire to.  I love Peet's coffee; I prefer the dark, rich, bitter taste of it.  So do you think meinl matches up to the Peet's (or is better)?  If you do, i'll go get some.

[glenn]

I've got a few days before I'm out of Graffeo and will try the Meinl.  If you like dark roast, I highly endorse Graffeo.  Will report back on the meinl.

[rockefeller666]

glenn--

what is graffeo and where can I get it?  Is it a brand of coffee?