The hysteria continues (raw-milk EVIL, says FDA)

[Bux]

Straw mats are part of the dictionary definition of many cheeses. Legally, these cheeses are dead as a dodo. We can also discuss requirements for walls and floors to be made of glazed tile that can be hosed down and sanitized, to prohibit the growth of the natural molds that made many cheeses famous. Look on the bright side. We'll all be able to buy the same cheese in Stockholm, San Francisco and Saumur. It will be made locally from powdered milk and will have an indefinite shelf life. Brave new world. It will also be nutritious. We'll have no need for vitamin pills. We'll take pills for flavor and excitement.

[robyn]

...from what i've read, though,  and been told by cheesemakers, raw milk cheeses need more in the way of hygenic care, which in fact makes them a more cared for and cleanly produced cheese. 

so i'm on the side of the inspectors and inspections, and on the side of the raw milk cheese producers making cheese the old fashioned way, and that includes using straw matts to rest the cheeses on (which has been outlawed by the eu). i'm sure it imparts a delicate quality to the cheeses resting on them.

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Why do you assume that because the cheese needs more care - it gets more care? The most recent story here in the US is about how a fair number of people in NY got TB from eating cheese that apparently was deprived of such care.

All one can assume from the fact that it needs more care is that is needs more care - and more inspections - particularly in the case of soft cheeses - to assure that the product isn't contaminated.

Just curious - are you - or anyone else here - similarly indulgent about food poisoning when it comes from a really down scale product - like a Jack in the Box hamburger - as opposed to a "classy" product like raw milk cheese? I think the goal of food regulations is to maximize the chances that people don't get sick or die from food - no matter what the product is. No matter how many inspectors we have - they can't inspect everything. So it's appropriate to ban products that present an unreasonable risk of harm - particularly since those of us who live in first world countries presume that the food we eat won't make us sick or kill us. Robyn

P.S. This is a pretty interesting piece on how it is just about impossible to eliminate the risks in raw milk cheeses. And I don't think the authors have any particular ax to grind.

Edited March 28, 2005 by robyn (log)

[robyn]

Its also interesting to consider raw milk cheese in the context of other food-borne pathogens. Raw milk cheese is not exceptionally dangerous. It is dangerous in the same ways that raw meat, eggs, and even produce are dangerous. Is it against the law  to sell very rare steaks. Or unwashed produce that could be contaminated E. Coli?  Or desserts made with raw egg whites?

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Actually - you will find it almost impossible to get a rare hamburger in any Florida restaurant. At least any restaurant that isn't totally judgment-proof. Liability concerns. Steak is a bit different. Bacteria tend to be on the outside of a steak - so - no matter how it's cooked - the outside is usually hot enough to kill bacteria. When it comes to a chopped meat product like a hamburger - the bacteria can be on the inside as a result of the grinding process - and cooking to "rare" won't kill the bacteria.

As for raw egg whites - you don't see them either. Most commercial kitchens buy them pasteurized in bulk.

Food that is prone to contaminations that can injure people - like raw oysters - usually have warnings printed on the menu. And fewer and fewer restaurants are serving raw oysters (I don't blame them - a lot of oyster beds here in the southeast are perpetually contaminated). Robyn

[robyn]

I don't think of British Columbia as a particularly nanny-state place - but it's illegal to sell raw milk there.  Look here.  Robyn

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The nanny-state doesn't have to be nanny-statist in all its affairs. God knows the US isn't. I mean, there are apparently much stricter controls on raw milk cheeses, which kill maybe a few to a few dozen people a year, than there is on cigarettes, which kill roughly 400,000 people a year.

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People can reasonably expect to get sick or die from smoking. There aren't many people who think they can get sick or die from eating cheese. Robyn

[Patrick S]

I don't think of British Columbia as a particularly nanny-state place - but it's illegal to sell raw milk there.  Look here.  Robyn

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The nanny-state doesn't have to be nanny-statist in all its affairs. God knows the US isn't. I mean, there are apparently much stricter controls on raw milk cheeses, which kill maybe a few to a few dozen people a year, than there is on cigarettes, which kill roughly 400,000 people a year.

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People can reasonably expect to get sick or die from smoking. There aren't many people who think they can get sick or die from eating cheese. Robyn

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Yes, which is precisely why I said that I thought that things like warning labels and FDA advisories are a good idea. After all, if the public can be educated that raw eggs and raw meat and cigarettes carry potential health risks --and clearly they can-- than they can also be educated that raw milk cheeses carry potential health risks.

Edited March 28, 2005 by Patrick S (log)

[Patrick S]

Just curious - are you - or anyone else here - similarly indulgent about food poisoning when it comes from a really down scale product - like a Jack in the Box hamburger - as opposed to a "classy" product like raw milk cheese? 

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I can't speak for Marlena, but my answer to this question should be obvious from what I have already written in this thread. If one adult wants to sell a rare hamburger to another adult who wants to eat a rare hamburger, then I think you and I (and the gov't) should butt out. I would have no problem with Jack-in-the-Box selling rare burgers, so long as they featured a warning label that clearly explained the risk inherent in eating a rare hamburger. Only a few people would take the risk, and if they got sick, so be it.

I might even consider supporting warning labels on everyday food products that, unlike raw milk cheeses, the consumption of which actually does contribute substantially to the burdern of disease in the US. For instance, maybe a sticker on the menu or packaging of food that says (hypothetically) something like 'This double quarter pounder with cheese (or 16oz ribeye, or plate of fettucinni, or whatever) contains 130% of the RDA saturated fat for a 70kg adult. Diets high in fat are associated with obesity, heart disease, and premature death.'

Actually - you will find it almost impossible to get a rare hamburger in any Florida restaurant. At least any restaurant that isn't totally judgment-proof. Liability concerns. Steak is a bit different. Bacteria tend to be on the outside of a steak - so - no matter how it's cooked - the outside is usually hot enough to kill bacteria. When it comes to a chopped meat product like a hamburger - the bacteria can be on the inside as a result of the grinding process - and cooking to "rare" won't kill the bacteria.

Actually, bacteria can indeed by present internally in the steakl, especially in steaks which have been injected with flavor solutions (the injection itself can move the bacteria into the steak, or can simply create a conduit along which the bacteria can enter deeper into the steak).

As for raw egg whites - you don't see them either. Most commercial kitchens buy them pasteurized in bulk.

I don't know about Fla, but there are certainly pastry chefs still using raw whites in commercial settings. In fact, a few months ago, I brought this up on the pastry and baking forum, and more than one person said that they still used them, including some in commercial settings.

Food that is prone to contaminations that can injure people - like raw oysters - usually have warnings printed on the menu.

Which is as it should be, I say. Consistent with my position on cheese, I say, don't ban the raw oyster.