Kitchen Redo!

[Okbrewer]

It started as a simple idea. I wanted to replace the ceramic tiled counter top of my kitchen island with a granite slab. From there, well, maybe we ought to redo all the countertops, and since I'm going to replace the island top, maybe it's time I put in a new cooktop there as well. Then I started looking at new 30" double ovens, and alas, my GE combo microwave/thermal oven unit started looking dated. And it must have realized I was lusting for a new oven, because the microwave decided to quit last night! And since it is a combo version, the oven's controls are in the microwave panel. (My wife insists that I in some way sabotaged the microwave to help speed up the process!) Well, now I am to the point where I am considering gutting the whole kitchen and starting anew! That's where I hope you all might help! I need some ideas on design, appliances and placement of appliances.

First, my kitchen is all electric. And I want a gas cooktop. The present cooktop is in the island and I like being able to cook all around the island. There is no gas line plumbed to the island! I live in Oklahoma and we don't have basements. Or crawl spaces. Concrete slab foundations are de rigueur.

As I said, I like cooking at the island, but unless I gouge out a trench in the floor, I don't know how I could get gas to the island.

OTH, my present oven setup is on a wall that backs up to the garage, and my GAS hot water tank is on the other side of that wall! I suppose I could remove the oven combo and put a nice big dual-fuel range against that wall. But that would mean that I would have to cook in front of and looking at the wall, as opposed to being free to move around the island.

I like the way things are situated in the kitchen, the flow and all, but I really don't like my cabinets. I have a lot of cabinet space, I just don't like the way they are constructed. I also want to get rid of the flourescent lighting in the kithcen, and we also have what, at first glance, appears to be a vent hood above the island. Don't I wish! But, no, it is a ceiling fan! One that is NEVER used. Dumb placement of a ceiling fan. So, I guess I am leaning toward gutting the whole kitchen and embarking on a major renovation. Any ideas!?

I also need some help with the cooktop/range/ovens. I have been looking at Thermador and like what I have seen, but I also know that Wolf, Viking and DCS make comparable units. If I can't have the cooktop situated in the island, I will likely go with a 48" dual-fuel range. Any reviews, pros/cons on the available choices?

I think my next step should be to visit a kitchen planner. Any qualifications I should look for, or questions I should ask?

I am really scratching my head at this point. We need to have a new oven, but I don't want to do a quick fix for now and get what I really want later. So...any help would be greatly appreciated! Thanks for listening to my ramblings!

[jgarner53]

Is it possible to just get the new oven for now, then use it in a new kitchen that you take your time to remodel down the line (whether that's 6 months or a year from now)? I guess the other question to ask yourself is whether you're at a point financially to be able to get the remodel you want (gas cooktop, high end appliances, granite slabs, etc.)

[misscindy]

I also need some help with the cooktop/range/ovens.  I have been looking at Thermador and like what I have seen, but I also know that Wolf, Viking and DCS make comparable units.  If I can't have the cooktop situated in the island, I will likely go with a 48" dual-fuel range.  Any reviews, pros/cons on the available choices? 

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We have a 30" Viking dual-fuel range and I love it. I only wish we had the space in our galley kitchen for a 48". We've had it for 5 years and had one problem - the convection oven option suddenly stopped working - and I believe that is a fairly common occurrence. We had it repaired and it has been fine ever since. That incident did not have a negative impact on my overall happiness with the range. It performs quite nicely.

[fifi]

One thing to think about on the island cooktop. Apparantly, some building codes will not allow for an island gas cooktop. I think it has something to do with providing adequate ventilation but I am not sure. I just know that I more than one acquaintance that have had to move the cooktop to a wall location when switching to gas due to code requirements. If I had to rearrange to get gas, I would. I would stick with the electric ovens though.

I am going with GE Monogram (range built by DCS) mainly because of service in my area and several folks I know that have been very happy with the appliances and the service. I am going with the 48" range with 6 burners and a griddle. I can't talk myself into an indoor grill. What got me with this range is that the small oven can be set to proof bread, make yogurt and such. I am in love with the fridge with the bottom freezer. And the ice maker makes those little clear cubes.

Having been to various kitchen design emporiums, I have settled on Ikea cabinets unless the buider prefers to build them on the job. It will be a cost versus quality issue. I am very impressed with the Ikea hardware, full extension drawer slides and hinges.

[snowangel]

Whoa!

I'm in the process of rennoing the second kitchen in just under two years.

It is disruptive, expensive and a boatload of work, frustration and planning (I'm a DIY'er, so it's even worse, and since I have three kids, I have to get meals on the table) and has been known to cause tension in the household. That said, I will add that I am a person who mentions to my husband that "we should think about redoing this" and he has learned to expect periodically, to come home and find a demo in progress -- one that is past the point of no return. Yes, he still loves me. And loves that more than anything, this Valentine's Day, I want a new power tool .

I thought I loved my island cooktop, until I started cooking in a galley kitchen. Keep in mind that I have kids, one profoundly MR. I love the efficiency of the new layout (I should add that the kitchen in our "new" house is open to the dining room, and the cooktop is on the peninsula that opens to the dining/living area). The island, once we moved was, I realized, a great thing to run circles around.

I think one of the key things is to really think this through. Don't, at this point, get all wrapped up into what appliances you want. Think about the flow. Visit showrooms with whole kitchens. Go to open houses of houses for sale and see what they've done. Look around. Think it through thoroughly.

Be sure and read all about Varmint's New Kitchen. In the first post, he references his previous thread on his kitchen re-do. The thought process that went into the actual redo. These are two wonderful threads. He talks walking through his kitchen. What he wants. Really wants. Budget. Sourcing stuff. Checking code.

Post some pictures of your current set-up, please.

[deltadoc]

In 1986, I remodeled our 5' x 6' bathroom. I broke up the cast iron tub and THEN went out to look for another. They were about 4" high, so I knocked out the wall and made the bathroom 6' x 6' and put in a whirlpool. My wife can actually swim in it!

Well, by 1990 the bathroom remodel had gotten me constantly looking at our 9' x 9' kitchen attached with a doorway to a hugh dining room. I ended up knocking out all the ceiling, the wall between the two rooms, took out the chimney that occupied a corner of the 9' x 9' kitchen, took out the hardwood floor in the dining room, the asphalt and vinyl overlaid kitchen floor, the plaster walls, the lathing, rebuilt up everything from the studs, subfloor, and joists, the plumbing, the electricity, the lighting, and eventually turned the dining room into the kitchen and the old kitchen became the adjoining dining/eating area. I spent months just planning out the flow, layout, dimensional considerations, optimum space usage, work triangle (sink, fridge, cooktop), even the line of sight to the wall oven.

It took 2 years, $50K, and all my spare time. We lived on Taco Bells, 3 different pizzas (Dominoes, Pizza Hut, and I forget the 3rd one), White Castles, Dairy Queens, etc. the entire 2 years.

But since 1992, despite everyone telling me we were crazy, I have a kitchen to die for with a Thermador Professional Gas Cooktop including 4 burners, a griddle and a grill, a SubZero built-in fridge, Corian countertops, Corian seamless sinks, an island (with a sink too), Fieldstone's best cabinetry, Italian ceramic 13" tile floor which includes the kitchen, dining room, foyer entrance area, and the landing at the top of the steps to the basement, new lighting, new electrical service, new plumbing, a Dacor wall oven, a Robot Coupe, a Commercial Kitchen Aid, Wusthof Trident knife sets, AllClad pots and pans, in-cabinet revolving spice rack, pull out garbage cabinet, two corner lazy susans, a garden window over the main sink, an Everpure water system with its own spigot on the sink and also connected to the ice cube maker in the freezer, virtually everything I ever dreamed of in a kitchen.

Would I do it again? In a heartbeat. For over 12 years, we have had the time of our lives cooking in, and eating in, our wonderful kitchen and dining room. The money we saved by not having to go out to eat over the years has probably paid us back and then some.

I say, spend the money, mortgage the house if you have to, you will never regret it, unless you don't do it the way your heart really says you should.

Anyway, the kitchen, according to every real estate agent that has seen our house before and after the remodel has told us that no woman will be able to resist buying our house once they see the ktichen inside, even though the outside of the house is unremarkable stucco.

doc

[Okbrewer]

Thanks for the replies so far! I will take some pics tonight of my present situation and try to post them here.

MY wife and I seem to have different vision of the kitchen remodel! I want to do it "right" or go all out and get what I want in one "swell foop". She seems to think we can do a little bit at a time until we get to where we ultimately want to be. I think a compromise is in the works!

We have agreed that the present lighting in the kitchen needs to go, as well as the island overhang/ceiling fan. However, she doesn't see why I can't be happy with an electric cooktop, and why we need 30"double ovens.

We both agreed that it would be wise to have a kitchen planner come in to give us some advice, so that will definitely be the next step, as well as having our plumber come over to tell me whether or not it is feasible to run a gas line to the island.

Again thanks for the ideas! Keep 'em coming! I will take pics tonight.

[Varmint]

If you could sketch out some floor plans, that'll help us all with trying to give you suggestions. Seeing I'm now "completed" with my design with nothing more to do until demolition begins on Monday, I need another project!

The most important piece of advice I can offer is don't rush into anything. Research every aspect, every possible item, as much as you can. You'll be amazed at how often you change your mind, once you get a good understanding of what's available.

[andiesenji]

Part of my house is on a slab and part on raised foundation. The gas lines in the new part, on the slab, are overhead, not under the floor. There are all kinds of ways to bring the gas piping in to a center island, it does not necessarily have to be in a wall. In the laundry room behind the kitchen, the gas line for the dryer comes down through a column that is 6 feet from another matching column that has a bank of power outlets.

Both columns have been fitted with brackets that hold shelves above the washer and dryer.

The columns are steel and can hold lots of weight.

I have seen similar applications where a range hood was attached to a column that also contained the service to the range, including gas and electric. In that case the range hood and its exhaust sleeve were finished on all sides.

[Daddy-A]

I think my next step should be to visit a kitchen planner.  Any qualifications I should look for, or questions I should ask?

Full disclosure: I am a Certified Kitchen Designer (CKD) and a member of the National Kitchen & Bath Association (NKBA).

Okbrewer, visit The "Find a Professional" section on www.nkba.org. Type in your ZIP and you'll have a list of all the certified professionals in your area.

A.

[Okbrewer]

Thanks, Daddy-A! That's what I was looking for!

Follow the link below to see a rough drawing of my kitchen floorplan:

http://forums.egullet.org/uploads/11080173...1_775_23781.jpg

[Varmint]

Let's just include the drawing in the thread:

[Okbrewer]

OK! Here are some pictures of my kitchen. Now, I realize it isn't that bad, but there are some things that I really don't like and want to change. For instance, the tiled countertop on the island and the lighting and the ceiling fan above the island. Also, as I said, if I can get gas to the island I would really like to have either a gas cooktop or a range. So, take a look and give me your thoughts and ideas. Thanks!

[fifi]

Let me tell you a story . . . Ok, I won't go there. I suggest that you chill out and take a couple of months to compile a cooking diary. Keep track of how you cook, what you cook and what you think would be the ultimate to do that. Too many folks get into the "entertainment mode" and ignore what they do 90% of the time. I did that when I was still in my house, planning the retirement house, and let me tell you . . . there were some big surprises. A lot of what I thought I wanted made no sense. I even went into the way I cook, assembling ingredients a la mise en place, clean up patterns (I am a clean as you go freak), shopping patterns (buy what is good when available and store it). All of this led to subtle changes in the original plan. Try it. It is time well spent.

[snowangel]

I agree with fifi. The diary is a very good idea. Focus on what works and what doesn't, in terms of flow (not focusing on your specific appliances).

When I first looked at these pictures, two things struck me. How many doorways you have. Doesn't look like you have a single unbroken wall! And, how far your cooktop is from the sink and fridge.

In our former house, had I wanted to spend more money and time on the kitchen, I would have put the cooktop against a wall, and used the island as a big huge prep area. Think about stuff like that -- dramatically rearranging the layout of the kitchen.

I know if I were redoing a big kitchen from top to bottom, I'd try and cook in as many different kitchens of friends as possible.

[Mayhaw Man]

I will reply with photographic evidence of why you should take your time.

Think. Plan. Look at kitchens. Get prices. Pray over it. Whatever. Just don't do ANYTHING on spur of the moment/ I am still working on mine, 6 months later. I will be ordering cabinets this week from the same place that Dean got his (I can pick them up, so that makes them even more of a bargain). Just think about it for a while. I would kill for your kitchen at the moment, as I am pretty much dealing with a disaster area right now. It will be great when I get finished, but the last few months have been tough on my family (including a major marital rift that was pretty damn ugly for a month or two). Get everybody in your families opinion and make sure they know what the process is going to be and make sure that you have everything lined up before you pull one single tile. I learned the hard way-and this is after many renovations. YOu would think that I would have learned by now, but I don't take my own advice very well. Sadly.

[Okbrewer]

Thanks for your responses and suggestions. After a talk with my wife (the more level-headed and fiscally responisble one!), we decided to take a deep breath and regroup. There are some things we both agree need to be changed, and some others that she and I don't see eye-to-eye on. For instance, we agree that the counter tops need replacing, especially the hard to keep clean tile in the island. We also agree that changing the lighting will not only open up the kitchen more, but will also get it out of the '80's. Since I changed the hardware on the cupboards, they don't look so bad, so we will likely keep those and just make some cosmetic changes. We will also need a new oven, but that is one of the sticking points. My wife doesn't understand why I want double ovens, and she sure doesn't see the need for a 48" range! So we are still hashing those areas over. But, I do most of the cooking, so I should get what I want right!

I like the attitude of one of my wife's co-workers. When my wife told her about the ktichen project and that I do most of the cooking, the co-worker said, "He cooks for you!? Hell, buy him the darn stove!"

[fifi]

. . . . .

I know if I were redoing a big kitchen from top to bottom, I'd try and cook in as many different kitchens of friends as possible.

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I forgot about that. Susan makes an excellent suggestion. I did get the chance to cook in friends' kitchens, some of them extremely high dollar. I came to one conclusion . . . I hate island cooktops. In the kitchens I was in, they were always in an awkward place, they couldn't use gas because of local codes, and the ventilation sucked. (Well, not really, the problem is it didn't suck, in the literal sense.) Also, and this is a strictly personal opinion (sort of like not liking orange), I find that I hate granite. That saved me the price of a pretty good car.

[JohnN]

A couple of thoughts:

1) While I agree with everyone's suggestion to plan it all out first and not jump into things, I'm not sure that it would be that easy to do it in pieces and end up with what you really want. If you really want a whole new kitchen, I think the best way is to just plan and implement a whole new kitchen.

2) If it turns out to be too difficult to run gas to where you want your stove, consider a induction cooktop.

3) I suspect if you go to the trouble of gutting the kitchen, cutting a trench for a gas line isn't going to be out of line.

Strip down to the floor, cut two slices with a circular diamond saw, then attack the inside of your cuts with a rotary hammer drill or a small electric jackhammer. The only hard part will be where you get to the foundation. I'd try to expose the outside of the foundation and make some cuts with the circular saw and then finish up with the rotary hammer. Not fun, but it is probably only one-man day's worth of work.

I did pretty much the same thing so I could put a door in our garage. It was hot and sweaty work, but and the end of the day I had my opening. In reality, the corners where you couldn't get the circular saw in there were the only real hard parts.

Oh, and when it comes to rotary hammers, bigger *is* better. Some of us have to learn the hard way! :-)

Total cost was less than $170. $70 for a diamond blade for my circular saw and less than $100 (can't remember exactly) to rent a rotary hammer from Home Depot and purchase a bit for the hammer.

Don't forget the dust mask and glasses!

-john

[Varmint]

I nearly made a critical mistake a year ago when I thought I could "upgrade" my kitchen without a complete renovation. Had I gone through this mini-remodel, I would have been completely dissatisfied. What the delay did was allow me to reconsider everything I "knew" I wanted. I continued to research. I continued to analyze how the food would go from range to countertop or to sink. How dishes were to be cleared. How dishes were to be stored. And I continued to post here to get more feedback. I accepted a lot of suggestions (Get rid of that closet, as Rachel told me many times) and ignored others (flour bins and commercial vinyl). However, I considered nearly every option. From there, it was no longer a matter of what I was going to do, but how.

I've spent the past week at my in-laws, working in a high-end kitchen with 3 ovens, 2 dishwashers, a big range, and a huge marble island. I used to love this kitchen, but having gone through this analytical process with my own space, I've recognized how horribly inefficient my in-laws' kitchen is. Too many things are not where they should be. That's not going to be the case with my kitchen.

So, as many people told me, wait awhile. Start from scratch and bare walls. Let go of what the kitchen is now. From that shell, you can put everything exactly where you want it. You can make the kitchen look and function to meet your expectations. If you compromise, you may regret it. I would have been bitching and moaning today if I settled for less than what I'm currently getting.

One final thing, if you do your research, you'll save yourself a ton of money. I'm still going to get my project done, including appliances, for about 30-50% less than had I not bought my own stuff, hired my own carpenters, and provided everyone with detailed specifications. It's already made a huge difference.

So, listen to these fine folks. They really do know the right way to approach this.

[Varmint]

I also noted that you had asked questions about ranges. This was one area that I researched exhaustively, and ultimately, I chose a 36" six burner dual fuel GE Monogram. Why? First, I liked the performance. It pumped out the BTUs that I wanted, it had low temperature simmer controls, and it had a continuous grate to facilitate pan movement. It's made by DCS (now owned by Fisher Paykel), but it's serviced by GE. No matter where you live, you'll find GE repair personnel. I'm not sure how many DCS repairmen/women there are across the country. Finally, you couldn't beat the price. This range cost me about $5,000, delivered. The comparable Viking unit was a couple grand more, which I couldn't justify. Actually, even if the Viking were the same price, I probably would have still chosen the Monogram. I just can't wait to cook with the sucker!

[joiei]

something to consider. One of the favorite things in the kitchen where I work, a private home, they had a pot filling faucet installed over the stove, a Garland range, love it. The convience of having this simple thing is incredible. If I need to fill a pot, i set it on the burner empty and fill it. If I need to add a little water to a simmering pot, it happens easily. The contractor plumbed the water line when the house was being built and I am forever grateful. The faucet is not a flexible hose but a faucet with a pivot point in it. It can reach all the burners. It has two shut off valves, one at the point where it comes out of the wall and the other at the mouth of the faucet. Consider this when your laying out your plans. I just wish I had one in my own home.

[andiesenji]

something to consider.  One of the favorite things in the kitchen where I work, a private home, they had a pot filling faucet installed over the stove, a Garland range, love it.  The convience of having this simple thing is incredible.  If I need to fill a pot, i set it on the burner empty and fill it.  If I need to add a little water to a simmering pot, it happens easily.  The contractor plumbed the water line when the house was being built and I am forever grateful.  The faucet is not a flexible hose but a faucet with a pivot point in it.  It can reach all the burners.  It has two shut off valves,  one at the point where it comes out of the wall and the other at the mouth of the faucet.  Consider this when your laying out your plans.  I just wish I had one in my own home.

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I have one of these, have had them in my last three kitchens and they are a godsend!

Not only pot filling, but if I have heavy, cast iron and heavy copper cookware with stuff stuck in it, I simply run some water into it and turn on the gas. I have a short, round bamboo "broom" that I use to scrub the interior of the pots when the water is boiling. It makes it so much easier to clean them and this does not destroy the patina on my old cast iron.

And if you are wondering how I empty them, I have a 3 gallon stainless steel bucket (bought at a local feed store) and ladle most of the water into that with a 1 quart saucepan and empty it into the sink. (Actually my housekeeper does it most of the time, if she is around, but I can do it also.)

They come in several different styles and different lengths.

I got the one with the longest reach

like this!

However I can advise you to avoid getting the copper finish.