NY restaurant industry

[chefzadi]

All this talk of dishwashers reminds me of what I heard a French-American woman say once, "In France we have the Algerians, over here you have the Mexicans"

My parent's generation of Post-Colonials moved to France to do the hard labor jobs. I was born in France to Algerian parents.

My first job in a restaurant? 14 years old washing dishes and polishing copper pots. I have no complaints about it. I still remember the process of polishing those pots. I was taught the proper method for even this. Where is the pride and joy in this? The end result, shing, gleaming perfection.

[Mabelline]

There's a term that covers an individual working a long day for food: Draft animals.

[FaustianBargain]

I am sorry, but I dont get the forced romanticism of this whole thing. It is plain wrong. The industry has aligned itself to unsustainable goals. Food with expensive ingredients and a lot of prep came originated as a concept during times when kings and aristocrats were fed by kitchens 'below the stairs'.

You want to know who washed the dishes...polished the copper...and worked their ass off? Street waifs and children sold into kitchen slavery. The same model is now applied to in the free market republics of the world with the necessary constraint of money. Palace kitchens didnt have a budget. They didnt have to show profits. Starred restaurants are dishing out to a clientale upon whom they are dependent for a generating profit? Does anyone else see what I can see?

Immigrant labour is cheap and the kitchen is full of over worked and under paid staff BECAUSE there is no more child labour and no more slave labour. There are no more kingdoms. There is the ball crushing need to make profits or stay afloat..WITH a customer base who are so finicky and can possibly be tightwadish. They have whims. They have wallets, my friends and they have demands. And they want foie gras and truffles. There is competition. There are taxes to pay. There are food critics . There are Michelin stars to chase. There is global politics over everything from foie gras to shrimp. There are deceptive and crippling subsidies. There is WTO, GMO and IMF. There is globalisation and global warming. Food is commodity. And commodities are traded. There are price fluctuations. People dont want food. They want art and want to feel like royalty beheaded hundreds of years ago. They dont want mutton. Oh no! They want milk fed veal. And they want it all within a budget and with a sense of entitlement.

When I woke up, the oppressive air stank.

YMMV.

[FaustianBargain]

My first job in a restaurant? 14 years old washing dishes and polishing copper pots. I have no complaints about it. I still remember the process of polishing those pots. I was taught the proper method for even this. Where is the pride and joy in this? The end result, shing, gleaming perfection.

I am very sorry that you had to spend your childhood like that. I am happy for you that you are past that. I hope that NO child of 14 years will EVER have to go through something like that in our future. Please dont glorify it. You HAVE no complaints about it or you HAD no complaints about it? I find it hard to believe that you have no complaints about it. I challenge you to look me in the eye and tell that to me with a straight face.

[chefzadi]

My first job in a restaurant? 14 years old washing dishes and polishing copper pots. I have no complaints about it. I still remember the process of polishing those pots. I was taught the proper method for even this. Where is the pride and joy in this? The end result, shing, gleaming perfection.

I am very sorry that you had to spend your childhood like that. I am happy for you that you are past that. I hope that NO child of 14 years will EVER have to go through something like that in our future. Please dont glorify it. You HAVE no complaints about it or you HAD no complaints about it? I find it hard to believe that you have no complaints about it. I challenge you to look me in the eye and tell that to me with a straight face.

←

It's common to start training in trade at the age between the ages of 14-16 in France. At least it used to be. Daniel Boulod started apprenticeship when he was 14, so did Wolfgang Puck. They all started at the bottom as well.

[chefzadi]

There's a term that covers an individual working a long day for food: Draft animals.

←

You analogy isn't lost on me.

If I had wealthier parents my options would have been different. But I come from a big poor family. Since there never seemed to enough food I became "obsessed" with it in a sense, I also wanted to travel. My mom can't read, write or even speak French. I wasn't exactly on the fast track to the Sorbonne. My brothers chose different trades. They are actually artisans who do architectural detailing. Two of them did decorative work for a famous museum in France. But alas it's a dying art. One of them now drives a truck for a living. Another repairs cars. Anyway, my career choice took me allover the world. I was quite the bohemian as a young cook. Yes the work was hard, but I had a blast. For a kid like me it was the ONLY opportunity. By the time I was 31 I landed my first Exec. Chef job. I'm an instructor now. A well respected one, if I do say so myself. Yeah me, the little Algerian kid who was called a white nig***, I'm now considered "cultured" and edumacated.

My 20 month old son is fascinated with the kitchen, he knows where everything is in the frigo and the pantry. He loves to watch me cook. So the question came into my mind what if he wanted to become a chef? Of course his process would be different from mine. But I would still tell him that in order to become a great chef he needs to start from the bottom and work his way up.

Also, I think there is too much dwelling on certain kinds of restaurants and chefs. I almost took a job as a private chef. The work is quite easy and the pay is GREAT. Some culinary school grads go straight from school into positions like this, even the starting pay is pretty good. Some go into catering. Some want to be corporate chefs. Some want to start a personal chef business. Some already work at a place like Marie Callenders and they want to move ahead with the company by getting a culinary degree. Some have rich parents who will buy them a restaurant straight out of school...

[chefzadi]

RE Bourdains' statement: The restaurant business--the cooking part of it, anyway remains, in spite of all its faults (lack of health coverage being prime), one of the last true meritocracies, where a female line cook from the mountains of Ecuador can beat out a candy-ass white boy with a college degree for the same job--and for the same money.

_______________________________________________________________________

Hit the nail on the head. I've already talked about my humble beginnings. My son on the other hand would me more like the candy-ass college grad.

[FaustianBargain]

Also, I think there is too much dwelling on certain kinds of restaurants and chefs. I almost took a job as a private chef. The work is quite easy and the pay is GREAT. Some culinary school grads go straight from school into positions like this, even the starting pay is pretty good. Some go into catering. Some want to be corporate chefs. Some want to start a personal chef business. Some already work at a place like Marie Callenders and they want to move ahead with the company by getting a culinary degree. Some have rich parents who will buy them a restaurant straight out of school...

Good for them. They have made a choice, havent they? And twenty years from now, they wont have to make someone wash dishes or peel potatoes like a monk to exorcise the benevolence and value of their 'valuable' training.

Isnt it tragic? If the previous generation had bitched and whined..demanded respect...decent hours and wages....instead of thumping their chests with false macho bravado..who knows...the industry might have sat up, taken notice and done something about it...

Four Yorkshiremen

[..]

3rd YORKSHIREMAN:

Well, of course, we had it tough. We used to 'ave to get up out of shoebox at twelve o'clock at night and lick road clean wit' tongue. We had two bits of cold gravel, worked twenty-four hours a day at mill for sixpence every four years, and when we got home our Dad would slice us in two wit' bread knife.

4th YORKSHIREMAN:

Right. I had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night half an hour before I went to bed, drink a cup of sulphuric acid, work twenty-nine hours a day down mill, and pay mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our Dad and our mother would kill us and dance about on our graves singing Hallelujah.

1st YORKSHIREMAN:

And you try and tell the young people of today that ..... they won't believe you.

ALL:

They won't!

Monty Python's Flying Circus.

[ludja]

Nearly every dishwasher I've seen in Manchester is from the Congo (former Zaire).  I couldn't possibily comment on their legality or not, for obvious reasons.

Strangely underrepresented in the kitchen brigade proper, though. Outside the usual collection of UK, EU and Australian/NZ chefs, there's nary a foreigner to be found.

...

From all of your experiences, how does that compare to the US?

←

So if I understand, it is quite different from the US in that dishwashers from Non-UK and EU countries do not typically become line chefs (but rather remain dishwashers, etc) ?

If so, I wonder why the difference?

Edited January 27, 2005 by ludja (log)

[chefzadi]

Nearly every dishwasher I've seen in Manchester is from the Congo (former Zaire).  I couldn't possibily comment on their legality or not, for obvious reasons.

Strangely underrepresented in the kitchen brigade proper, though. Outside the usual collection of UK, EU and Australian/NZ chefs, there's nary a foreigner to be found.

...

From all of your experiences, how does that compare to the US?

←

So if I understand, it is quite different from the US in that dishwashers from Non-UK and EU countries do not typically become line chefs (but rather remain dishwashers, etc) ?

If so, I wonder why the difference?

←

Even in the States there are quite of few career dishwashers.

[ludja]

Nearly every dishwasher I've seen in Manchester is from the Congo (former Zaire).  I couldn't possibily comment on their legality or not, for obvious reasons.

Strangely underrepresented in the kitchen brigade proper, though. Outside the usual collection of UK, EU and Australian/NZ chefs, there's nary a foreigner to be found.

...

From all of your experiences, how does that compare to the US?

←

So if I understand, it is quite different from the US in that dishwashers from Non-UK and EU countries do not typically become line chefs (but rather remain dishwashers, etc) ?

If so, I wonder why the difference?

←

Even in the States there are quite of few career dishwashers.

←

I can believe that.

However from what I read right here and elsewhere, I thought that many linechefs in the US in bigger cities are non-white, non-US born.

[chefzadi]

Nearly every dishwasher I've seen in Manchester is from the Congo (former Zaire).  I couldn't possibily comment on their legality or not, for obvious reasons.

Strangely underrepresented in the kitchen brigade proper, though. Outside the usual collection of UK, EU and Australian/NZ chefs, there's nary a foreigner to be found.

...

From all of your experiences, how does that compare to the US?

←

So if I understand, it is quite different from the US in that dishwashers from Non-UK and EU countries do not typically become line chefs (but rather remain dishwashers, etc) ?

If so, I wonder why the difference?

←

Even in the States there are quite of few career dishwashers.

←

I can believe that.

However from what I read right here and elsewhere, I thought that many linechefs in the US in bigger cities are non-white, non-US born.

←

You're correct in the States alot of line cooks in the US are non-white, non-US born.

When I was working in the UK (this was before the gulf war) the dishwashers were Colombian. I don't recall a single Colombian line cook though.

[FaustianBargain]

Nearly every dishwasher I've seen in Manchester is from the Congo (former Zaire).  I couldn't possibily comment on their legality or not, for obvious reasons.

Strangely underrepresented in the kitchen brigade proper, though. Outside the usual collection of UK, EU and Australian/NZ chefs, there's nary a foreigner to be found.

...

From all of your experiences, how does that compare to the US?

←

So if I understand, it is quite different from the US in that dishwashers from Non-UK and EU countries do not typically become line chefs (but rather remain dishwashers, etc) ?

If so, I wonder why the difference?

←

My first guess > As culinary bear said, majority of the dishwashers are from African countries. Their cuisine is inherently different from typical 'Europeon' fare and so its difficult to pick up?

Secondly> There are a lot of 'catering colleges' and 'study and work' schemes in the UK. All these students have to find placement somewhere. Turnover is also high. It is likely that the restaurants will choose someone with a NVQ level so they dont have to go over the basic basic training with everyone who does the in and out. Also, I think a food hygiene certificate is compulsary in the food prep stations.

Thirdly > The kitchen crew is rather young. Immigrant dishwashers tend to be older.

Fourthly > Work permit regulations are rather strict here. Everything goes on paper. Maybe its an insurance/state benefits/healthcare thingy?(iirc, everyone in the kitchen need to have some sort of insurance if they get hurt/fall down etc) It is easier to insure those 'in the euro zone'? EU nationals and those from certain Europeon countries do not require a work permit? I am only guessing.

Someone in the field and more knowledgable than me can probably explain it better. I am merely pulling it out of my hat.

edited to add: OTOH > there are also probably a very large number of illegal immigrants( by proportion) in the US than in the UK. also, there are also less number of americans(proportionally) than europeons who are willing to work in a kitchen by starting from scratch. in the uk, they are willing to invest a little time with the young apprentices to train them and PASS on skills. in the us, they want them to wash dishes or peel potatoes now. apparently. so education has no value in the us. also, when someone invests time and money in a catering course, they might..they just might...demand a better pay. why go through that hassle when you can train dishwashers to become line cooks with dishwasher wages..obviously dishwashers and cooks are interchangable...and they can do two jobs at the same rate of pay ..what could be better...

damn clock..just wont go past 1980...i want a refund from god..einstein, patch me through...

Edited January 28, 2005 by FaustianBargain (log)

[chefzadi]

I just wanted to add that my dishwashing days are hardly worthy of a sob story. The restaurant was located in an old Castle in the Beaujolais. The plates were all fine china. The kitchen was huge and it felt like hearth and home to me. The larger than life old chef and his even plumper wife treated me very nicely. They didn't over work me at all. The chef would show me his stocks and sauces. I also got things from the pantry which I loved doing, I would stay in there in awe of the indgredients for 20-30 minutes at a time. It was more like staying at home with mom and dad doing chores on a farm or something than work.

Hardly high volume dining. I's sure the washers at Les Halles work much harder.

[culinary bear]

In my kitchen (meaning where I work, I don't own it), the kitchen porters have to have the same documentation as the chefs, and indeed all staff :

1) a National Insurance number (equivalent to a US Social Security number)

2) proof of entitlement to work in the UK, which is usually an EU passport, a birth certificate, or a non-EU passport with a working visa attached.

No documents, no pay.

A citizen of any European Union country has the right to reside and work in any other EU country, with the same inherent rights as a citizen of the country to which they move.

The only kitchen porter who has gone on to cook is the breakfast chef. As we're attache to hotel, some feckless bugger has to get in at 6 to cook the bacon, eggs and other assorted hot buffet items for the hordes of residents. He started off washing pots and pans and when the regular breakfast chef left, he was "promoted".

There's a very distinct line between porter and chef. The porter may get some of the less romatic jobs, like picking spinach and peeling carrots, but that's the limit of their involvement.

A lot of chefs I know started by washing dishes when they were young, but I very rarely see anyone move from the sinks to the stoves within one establishment; you'd have to be pretty good to do so, as well as have a very openminded head chef.

[Exotic Mushroom]

RE Bourdains' statement: The restaurant business--the cooking part of it, anyway remains, in spite of all its faults (lack of health coverage being prime), one of the last true meritocracies, where a female line cook from the mountains of Ecuador can beat out a candy-ass white boy with a college degree for the same job--and for the same money.

_______________________________________________________________________

Hit the nail on the head. I've already talked about my humble beginnings. My son on the other hand would me more like the candy-ass college grad. 

←

I've heard people say this fairly often, but I have to say, it has never been my experience. Here in the Bay Area anyway, all the top kitchens are basically full of CIA trained white boys with very few exceptions. And as a woman trying to make it in them, I have to say that females are basically always at a disadvantage for a job versus males, no matter how capable they are. Even though it is not my background, chefs are always trying to shuffle me over to pastry.

And I don't know exactly what pay is in NY, but I work at one of the top restaurants in SF and we all make $10/hr. Given cost of living around here, that makes it damn hard to live. Why do I do it? Partly for the learning experience, but mostly because I just can't stand to make mediocre food. I love what I do, and I know I could earn twice as much (to start) if I went to work at some big union hotel. I just don't want to. But a living wage would be really, really nice.

Oh, and to break in I had to work 12 hour days for free for several months. This industry treats it's workers like ass.

[Sleepy_Dragon]

Disclosure: I am a culinary student in Seattle in a vocational community college, graduating in June 2005.

As far as learning goes, I'm willing to do what it takes to get the training I need. Hard work doesn't bother me, in fact, I'm happiest when I can do everything possible to make something as perfect as possible according to what the boss wants. Then the next time, see if I can do it faster and better. It doesn't matter what the task is, the notion of pride in work is something I live by.

However, I think what's different now compared to the apprenticeships of yesteryear is the sheer destruction of the social contract. I've read the biographies of chefs like Jacques Pepin, et al. I see how they had to work when they were starting out. Like dogs, though they loved it too.

They also had affordable (sometimes free) housing, supportive family, and health care. How many people in the industry in the US today can say they have those things, even just one of them?

Does anyone know the US minimum wage in 1963 was the equivalent of $7.80/hr in today's dollars?

What is another person's life force worth?

Don't get me wrong, I love what I've been training for and will embrace the work with the entirety of my heart and soul. But, I can also easily see why cooks are overrepresented in prison. And it worries me. I want to open my own restaurant someday, and I want to do it as decently and as honorably as I can. The big ethical crux here for me is finding a way to do it without adding to the pain in the world. I think it's possible, but it isn't something one person can do alone and without compromise.

For all the fans of dining out, I would like to ask you all to please consider doing your part to restore a semblance of social contract. A great many things, good important things, are far cheaper financially and socially than prison in the long run.

Pat

Edited February 1, 2005 by Sleepy_Dragon (log)

[Pan]

[...]For all the fans of dining out, I would like to ask you all to please consider doing your part to restore a semblance of social contract.[...]

←

For those of us who'd like to, how do we do it?

[chefzadi]

Prison? Maybe it's my lack of English skills, but I'm very confused. Prison and cooking?

[terrarich]

RE Bourdains' statement: The restaurant business--the cooking part of it, anyway remains, in spite of all its faults (lack of health coverage being prime), one of the last true meritocracies, where a female line cook from the mountains of Ecuador can beat out a candy-ass white boy with a college degree for the same job--and for the same money.

_______________________________________________________________________

Hit the nail on the head. I've already talked about my humble beginnings. My son on the other hand would me more like the candy-ass college grad. 

←

I've heard people say this fairly often, but I have to say, it has never been my experience. Here in the Bay Area anyway, all the top kitchens are basically full of CIA trained white boys with very few exceptions. And as a woman trying to make it in them, I have to say that females are basically always at a disadvantage for a job versus males, no matter how capable they are. Even though it is not my background, chefs are always trying to shuffle me over to pastry.

And I don't know exactly what pay is in NY, but I work at one of the top restaurants in SF and we all make $10/hr. Given cost of living around here, that makes it damn hard to live. Why do I do it? Partly for the learning experience, but mostly because I just can't stand to make mediocre food. I love what I do, and I know I could earn twice as much (to start) if I went to work at some big union hotel. I just don't want to. But a living wage would be really, really nice.

Oh, and to break in I had to work 12 hour days for free for several months. This industry treats it's workers like ass.

←

And it is up to people like us to break this cycle of treating talent like shit. I understand that there are cost to consider and that ownership always looks to kitchen salaries when cutting is considered, but it is hard to hear about how a prep cook at Bennigan's is making 13/hour while I am toiling as a sous chef at a high end bistro for essentially 11/hour (after factoring the extra time worked, I am salaried) it tears me apart. I will do everthing I can, if ever blessed with opportunity to be a successful chef/owner, to avoid overworking staff and pay them a respectful wage.

[chefzadi]

Why not go work for Bennigans or the Hotel that mushroom mentioned for better pay? Bourdain mentioned the power of a strike of sorts. Why not try it? Organize it online, go work for a better paying employer. Teach those who do not recognize talent a lesson.

[Sleepy_Dragon]

[...]For all the fans of dining out, I would like to ask you all to please consider doing your part to restore a semblance of social contract.[...]

←

For those of us who'd like to, how do we do it?

←

Always the big question, isn't it.

I think to start, the main thing is to be mindful that everything comes from something or someone, somewhere, putting energy into it to make it happen. But just as in the creation of the fabulous meal, the people and things that made it happen didn't do it in a vacuum free of cost to themselves.

In my mind, it's the same as what I mentioned before: supportive family (one could interpret this as either helping to create a community where supportive family is possible or doing something within the community that will pick up the ones who fall), affordable housing, and healthcare. We can have these things, if enough of us want them.

There are individuals and organizations in most locales trying to work for these things, one could try getting involved with them on some level of individual comfort, whether it's volunteering for a literacy program, working in a community pea patch that teaches kids what it really means to grow and care for something from start to finish, making sure your political representatives hear it from you about affordable quality education, prisoners' right to vote (many states do not allow people with past convictions to vote), helping immigrants with stuff like their citizenship exam or whatnot, and much more you can probably think of.

These things may seem like they're unrelated to the question you asked, but anybody who's had to live with them would say otherwise. The glimmers of light that kept me going through difficult circumstances were hope: somewhere, someone gave a shit and helped me out. I remember all of those people, and I credit them with having a big role in helping me survive up until this point.

I saw not everybody out there was cold and uncaring, so therefore, I didn't need to be either. (I'll also be the first to say I'm no saint, and do this quite imperfectly, but it's still something worth trying for. Especially when the alternative in the end is madness.)

Basically, I think it's seeing what the priorities are in reality, and what you'd like them to be instead, and picking something from within there to move it along. It doesn't have to be big; in my experience, doing something small every week or every day is what gives one the peace of mind to consider what else can be done. And oftentimes from there, others follow your example. Or what you did allowed the ones who were already there to be freed up to do something else related.

The best way I've heard it described is as a wave. Most people I think are good at heart and want to do what's right, but when a situation calls for their action, many will just wait and see or find some rationalization to not do anything. Until one person steps forth. Then many of the rest will follow. Do enough small things, and the number of people who try it themselves will increase.

There's a local pasture finished meat supplier I like to go through to get my meat. I think what they have to say about "garbage in, garbage out" in relation to what it was like when they ranched conventionally and decided they had to break out of it is something that can be applied to people as well:

http://www.thunderinghooves.net/story/laws_forgive.htm

Pat

Edited February 1, 2005 by Sleepy_Dragon (log)

[speidec]

Chefzadi:

What IS the best technique to get the copper pans so shiny?

[chefzadi]

Chefzadi:

What IS the best technique to get the copper pans so shiny?

←

Lemon and salt. Or Lemon, salt and vinegar.

[culinary bear]

Chefzadi:

What IS the best technique to get the copper pans so shiny?

←

Lemon and salt. Or Lemon, salt and vinegar.

←

I always used lemon, and sand. Or use the French method, which is to find the lowest-ranking commis you can find, and tell them to do it.

We digress, ladies and gentlemen.

Sleepy_Dragon - I'm about the most hardened socialist you'll find in a kitchen, but the system is so utterly riddled with the current prevailing attitude that it's going to be very hard to swing. Whether we like it or not, we have to operate within market forces. Market forces may well dictate that some people will pay more to eat at an establishment where they know the staff are treated scrupulously well, but it's still a market force.

Malheureusement, most chefs and organisations are still very much of the 'just hold still so I can climb up your back' mentality.