The Irish Heather

[appreciator]

edited to the point of deletion because it really was off topic and as I was only agreeing with something Eddy said, not really necessary to remain

Edited February 3, 2005 by appreciator (log)

[Daddy-A]

Appreciator ... you're right. It does belong in the other thread. In fact, Edible Vancouver's post is the only one out of the last several even remotely on topic. We really need to get this thread back on topic, or it will have to be shut down.

Don't misunderstand me. The discussion here is really good. But it doesn't belong in this thread. Feel free to continue the discussion in what has become the generic DOV thread here: DOV - What can we do to improve it?

A.

[DameD]

Wow, i have been gone for a few days and checked in and this thread has taken off...

Sounds like you had a great evening Eric, i feel it really is a shame that there were neg. responses to the Heather, but unfortunately those were the experiences. And I really hope I did not offend Sean, as he is very gracious host and he has great places of business. I have proabably sent at least 15 people over to the Satly Tongue for the Neals Yard cheese and told what an amazing whiskey/cheese eve. that was. I know all reatuarants have off nights and I know it is crazy during DOV, esp. when you add a famiy to care of and And moving which is hard in itself.

But I am sure if I was Sean I would want to know peoples experience at the restaurant and how to improve etc. I don't we all jumped on the bandwagon to complainwe all just had to the same experience and being this is Egullet we are here to tell our experiences, whether great or not. Like I mentioned it is great Eric had a good experience and i am sure this thread people will not stop going to the Heather, they might even go to check what it out! :) I know we will continue going, When we were there with our group of friends, we couldn't think of any other great Pubs with good ambience and real Irish ones, it is one of the few of the city and the Shebeen Room.. WOW what a great little secret, I hope it stays that way (selfish I know!!)

[John Jameson]

DOV has been a fantastic experience. It is Thursday evening and to date we have served over 960 guests. No double bookings, no major errors, timing has been pretty good and feedback has been very positive (save the egullet kind).

In the middle of DOV my family and I moved into a beautiful heritage house, our first home. Lunches in the Deli have been busier than normal and the Shebeen is also unusually busy. I was feeling pretty good until I heard from a customer that there had been some negative posts re: DOV Irish Heather on egullet. My curiosity now being aroused I was seriously keen to read what was being said. Unfortunately, my computer was still packed away and I just didn't have the time to borrow somebody elses.

On Saturday morning my sister brought me a printout of all previous posts. I was stunned and then I was outraged. Sunday and then Monday brought even more cheer. It appeared that the herd had begun to stampede and that even if Jesus Christ himself had come down off the cross to cook and serve for these people, they still would not be satisfied.

Here is my opinion on this farce. If constructive critisim was the intent, any of you could have quietly PMed, Emailed or Phoned me to point out any perceived flaws in my operation, be it service, food or otherwise. The fact that all of you felt a need to post your "reviews" on egullet for all the world to see, was a hostile action. Either known or unbeknownst to you, you have potentially damaged my business. You have certainly called into question the integrity of The Irish Heather and the professionalism of my staff. This of course presupposes that your points are valid, however, in truth (something that has been in short supply) most of your points are not valid.

I have great difficulty with the fact that none of the people reading have any idea who you are. If you are going to say nasty things about my business at least have the guts to tell the readers who you are. As far as I am concerned until we know who you are, there is a major credability issue. For example, who is to say that you are not related to a competitor, or that you simply don't like Irish people or that you don't know what you are talking about. Actually some of the posts give a pretty good indication of just how poor the food knowledge is.

I have been in the business P/T & F/T for over 25 years and in that period I have worked FOH, BOH, in both fast food & fine dining. I have managed everything from an airline catering dept to a bagel bakery, from a country house restaurant to a public house. My knowledge has been gathered through jobs in London, Ireland and Vancouver and there isn't much about this business that I haven't experienced. I would pit my palate and knowledge against any of you so called reviewers, any time.

For those readers that don't know the Heather, here is what we are about. The Heather is working class, the food is working class, peasant if you like...terrines, pot pies, cassoulets, bangers and mash, house smoked salmon, etc. We have never served wings, nachos, or burgers and never will. We are not the kind of place that greets you with "Hi, my name is Sean and I'll be your server for this evening" nor are we the "Good evening Mr RooStew, I just got in a nice merlot in from the Clare Valley". The service at the Heather is honest, friendly, funny and refreshingly different. If you are an ass we will tell you, if you are rude to my staff, I will ask you to leave. We don't hold with, "the customer is always right" philosophy, because they aren't .

We have 100's of regulars who eat and drink everyweek and if you visit us you are more likely to hear "How are you doing folks, are you here for dinner? Grab a seat upstairs and I'll be with you in a minute...we're slammed tonight". Or "Well lads what are you having". When it is busy we put our heads down and get the job done, we become very business like and we don't hang aroung to discuss the fact that the salmon in your ravioli was purchased earlier that day from one of the trawlers next to "Go Fish". We are not going to recommend things unless you ask and if we don't respond to a question, it is probably because we haven't heard you. One of you was appalled by the fact that my staff asked a customer which entree was theirs as they approached a table....."ok folks I have a chicken and a beef, who is having what?". This is what we do, it is what we have always done and will continue to do. If a waiter hasn't collected your bill it is because they are too busy, and if you aren't able to get up off your arse and bring the bill to them, then you shouldn't be here. I'm not interested in pandering to you, occasionally we won't get back to the table to collect your bill, deal with it.

When it comes to food, we take it very seriously. My philosophy has always been that we don't buy something if we can make it ourselves. Fresh baked breads, house made icecream, from scratch soups (always vegetarian, often vegan), handcut fries, braised meats, etc... we even make our own pot pies. I let the food speak for itself. The sausages in our bangers and mash are handmade by the British Butcher, our corned beef is crafted and delivered by the one-man-show Mike Vitteau & our cheese is now mostly from Neal's Yard. Actually the cheese plate is a pretty good example of what I am talking about, for $12 we give you four 1oz portions of artisan cheese, paired with matching flavours (nod to Feeny for this) ie instead of just fruit we also provide flavours for you to experiment with ie reduced balsamic vinegar, candied orange chutney, etc. This is not dissimilar to what you might receive at the excellent Lumiere's Tasting Bar, however my servers probably won't know the history of the cheese or their particular qualities...they'll tell you what is what and what country it is from. For me, this is kind of what the Heather is all about, excellent quality product, presented in an unusual manner (matching flavours) at a great price washed down with an imported beer or whisk(e)y. If I am around I'll offer suggestions for whiskey/beer pairings and answer any question that I can, however if I don't know the answer I'll say that. It is up to you to remember what you tasted and research it yourself. If you think that this is a little too casual, or maybe you don't drink beer/whisk(e)y and want a larger selection of wine, then the Heather isn't for you.

The Heather casually serves well prepared, honest food to people who are not uptight, in a unique setting and has been doing so for eight years.

Now back to the matter in hand. I was present every single night of DOV, save tonight and the dinner at West, and on that occasion I worked until 8pm. I do have three busy businesses, a young child and I did move house, however I am not offering this as an excuse because as far as I am concerned I have done nothing wrong.

I tasted everything that went out, every night. Almost every plate that left the kitchen was passed by me. My chef, Tony Marzo is a graduate of Dubrulle, served a four year apprenticeship at the Wickinnish Inn, worked for a couple of years in Victoria's Cafe Brio, then on to Langdon Hall, a Relais & Chateau Property in Ontario. Tony is the guy who oversaw the preparation and plating of your food, I coordinated its delivery and my sister Roisin (who has been working dining rooms in Wales, Ireland & Vancouver for 14 years) managed your room. On behalf of the three of us, I'm here to tell you that you are full of shit

A hostile action demands a hostile response and I certainly will not be pulling any punches in the following paragraphs. I feel that the best way to deal with these reckless posts is on an individual basis.

First on the list is "Fluffy", super name by the way. Not much to say here except that it is hard to take a person seriously when they can't tell the difference between salmon and tuna! However she did have a valid point about the melted ice-cream and the absence of the sour cream drizzle. Mea culpa, I was on desserts at that point of the evening and obviously asleep at the wheel. When it comes to the service aspect of the complaint, you & I are probably going to fall out. Fluffy if you are trying to suggest that you and your guest sat there for 20 mins before anybody took your order then you are simply wrong. There is no doubt that you were left alone for too long, but 20 minutes...no chance. Your server that night has worked for me for three years and in that period I have received only two complaints and customer neglect has never been one of them.

Next in line is RooStew. Now this guy is a peach.

According to RooStew he arrives a "touch" before 5pm and has a pint in the beer garden before dinner, I don't have a beer garden. According to my staff it was closer to 430pm when he arrived and it was more like his second beer he was supping as he sat for dinner.

Here are some highlights from RooStew's review:

He felt that his starter of beet and goat cheese roulade lacked seasoning and depth of flavour. Tell me RooStew, I'm dying to know what you would have done differently..what seasoning would you have used? That nice dried Italian mix that comes in those small jars at the supermarket? How exactly would you have imbued the beets and goat cheese with a greater flavour?

He also felt that the Coq au vin tasted like it had been boiled in water and shredded from the bone. Well he is correct about one thing, we had to hand pick all of the meat from the bones, how else were we going to stuff the coq au vin into the onions? The notion that we boiled it in water is both ridiculous and insulting. Incidentally this is the exact same batch of coq au vin that "Fluffy" appeared to enjoy, leastwise she didn't say anything bad about it. RooStew also felt that the accompanying "mash" was lumpy and starchy. It isn't clear whether he knew that he wasn't eating mashed potatoes...at any rate he found it lumpy and starchy. "Fluffy" to her credit acknowledges that it was a celery root puree and describes it as "light with a melt in your mouth quality". Who isn't telling the truth? Who is misrepresenting the facts?

Amazingly, this chap is three pints into the evening and still feels that he can make a valid comment on the taste of our food. "I wasn't sure but maybe I could taste salt on the tart tatin"...wow, quite brilliant really. I'm curious RooStew, was it Sea Salt or regular Table Salt?

This guys keeps getting better and better. His closes his review with some advice for the chef "maybe the chef coulda spent more time in the kitchen and less running food". He sees me running food to a few tables and thinks that I am the chef. Please bear in mind that I'm wearing jeans, a dress shirt and a bib apron. Perhaps RooStew thinks that this is what people wear in kitchens...weird.

However, all is not lost as RooStew will be back again to have a couple of pints...not if I can help it.

Next is Ling.

I laughed out loud when I read Ling's response to Neil's post about PMing me. Incredibly, she felt that contacting me directly might be rude so she chose the more polite route of running my establishment down in public....baffling really.

If I am remembering correctly, our only crimes were that the sugar cookies were undercooked, the portions too small, the chips too thick/soggy, the beef lacked salt and flavour. Overall we were kind of unremarkable and fine.

I personally tasted everything that went to her table and assigned my my sister Roisin to attend to her. Ling we knew that you were coming and after the Bis Moreno post we weren't taking any chances. When you ordered the fries we dropped two baskets and picked through the lot to find the best ones...won't be doing that again.

A couple of points worth mentioning, our sugar cookies are not meant to be hard and I tasted one of hers before it went out to her table..it definitely was not doughy, it had a soft chewy center.

The fries that Ling describes as thick, are actually ¼ inch squared.

With regards to still being hungry, why not order a basket of bread, or a cheese plate with dessert? You were getting 3 courses for $15, you could have splurged.

Judging by Ling's mauling of Bis Moreno, I should really consider myself lucky. I noted though that on a subsequent DOV Irish Heather post, Ling couldn't resist sticking it to us again. Apparently her father likes anything with puff pastry and this is probably why he liked our Tatin.. Way to go Ling, drive that knife in a little further.

From now on the herd is moving at pace.

We heard from "T" who felt it necessary to echo Ling's comments, so much so that he cut and pasted her entire review into his message. He did however trump her beef complaint by slamming the sauce as well.

Next comes SushiCat..another great name!

SushiCat wasn't sure whether to post or not but was then spurred into action by the flurry of activity on the DOV Irish Heather post. It would have been great if you had gone one step further and contacted me directly, but hey nobody else was doing it, why not go with the flow?

My servers were probably "muttering" that they were so busy because they were. As an aside I find the word "Muttering" to be particulary offensive......for you to suggest that my sister was wandering around the room, muttering, really boils my blood. Who the hell are you?

And was it really everytime that a waiter was within earshot? You should read your post out loud a couple of times, even you should recognize how ridiculous it sounds.

Just because you could see empty tables doesn't mean that the waiters were not busy....I have 160 seats and maybe 30 were in your line of vision.

It is mind boggling that you found fault with the fact that my servers ask diners who is having what? Did you forget that you were in a casual restaurant, charging $15 for a 3 course meal? If you wanted silver service you should have gone somewhere else and paid for it. Is this the reason that you thought the service was poor? I am surprised that you didn't complain about the lack of table cloths and the fact that your napkins were paper.

The funniest thing of all is the fact that you managed to notice from your vantage point that the nut pie looked like the best thing coming out of the kitchen. How exactly did you make that decision? I'd really like to know how you spied the nut pie from across the room and deemed it the best thing coming out of the kitchen? Perhaps it was Ling's previous post prompting you.

SushiCat of all the posts yours is arguably the most ridiculous.

Not to be outdone, hayasaka.k quickly chimed in with more of the same.

He/she bonded with fellow foodies RooStew and Ling over the poor state of the Tart tatin except his/hers wasn't even cooked. Over the next few posts I was now expecting to read that someone's apples were maggoty.

Word to the wise hayasaka.k if your server is too busy to pick up your bill, and you want to leave, get up and bring it to them. I would much rather that on a busy night my wait staff concentrate on getting food out to hungry people then collecting bills from already fed customers.

Also hayasaka.k I am dying to find out exactly what you meant when you said that the food lacked development? How would you know? What are your credentials?

Everybody went to bed and in the morning we hear from appreciator.

Her dinner starts off OK but then came that old chestnut, the ribs. Not to be outdone by the previous posts her ribs are now "completely lacking in flavour". The way that things are going I expect the next post to say that the ribs were cardboard like!. Not content with picking apart her own meal, appreciator then asks the diners at a neighboring table what they thought of their food. Nobody should be surprised to hear that their food also lacked flavour, but on this occasion it wasn't the ribs, but a relative newcomer to the flavourless line up...the vegetarian entree. Somehow we had managed to make a ragout of braised kale, carrots, wild mushrooms, canellini beans and truffled cauliflower puree lack flavour. Who were these people at the other table? We don't know and apparently we don't need to know, lets face it we don't really know who any of you are?

Appreciator next suggests a reworking of the entrees and creates a Frankenstein-ish dish composed of the entire vegetarian option perched atop the blue cheese polenta...brilliant. God help us!

We definitely did mix up the ice creams and that's how we know exactly who Sarah is. When she went to the rest room her dinner mate told the server that Sarah was a food critic, that she had been reviewing us and that we were doing very well...four stars apparently. Sarah likes to play food critic...what fun. Somewhere between dining at the Heather and posting her "review" Sarah changes her mind...perhaps it was after she read some of her fellow reviewers posts.

Keep 'em rolling, rolling......rolling, rolling, rolling, rawhide.

Next comes DameD. I had a nice chat with her on the phone and I had high hopes for her. I assigned a solid, friendly waiter to her table, an Kiwi actually and a nicer fellow you would not meet in a days walk. I thought a nice server for a nice lady, this should work out just dandy. I was counting on Danielle to break from the pack but alas it wasn't to be. I was however heartened by the fact that she found the salad to be the tastiest, as this was contrary to almost everybody else's opinion. Then she took the safe route by slamming the beef.

A suggestion for you, if the waiter doesn't answer your question perhaps he hasn't heard you. What could he have done to make you say that the service was great? He had an extra chair with a booster seat on it for your child. He made sure that your child's food came with the appetizers. Topped up your water glasses, brought your drinks, brought you your food, cleared away you plates, etc. what else did you want?

Here comes the cavalry. A regular customer and neighbour Sbonner tries to defend me, but is scolded for his efforts. Thanks anyway Stephen

RooStew is back and now my food isn't even decent, in fact it is sub-standard.

He mentions something about "an establishment of that calibre", but hold on, didn't he previously state that he didn't expect much from a pub? So what calibre is he talking about? I love this guy.

He finishes with a wrap on Steven's knuckles, asking him if he had the "Heather DOV culinary delights?" Steven hadn't, so that was a point scored for the Aussie.

DameD is back and now she and RooStew are bonding over my lack of good pub fare. Where did that come from, I'm having difficulty keeping track now. (By the by the Westender readership just voted us 2nd in Vancouver for Pub Grub, but you folks probably don't rate the Westender).

DameD is also entering some new information into the mix, apparently she asked the waiter other questions and on these occasions he spoke but did not know the answers. DameD if it isn't too much trouble, perhaps you will let me know what those questions were?

Sarah is back and she has identified part of the flavor problem, perhaps the chef has an aversion to salt. Brillant deduction Watson. Then she scolds Steven for defending the Heather.

The second wave of cavalry arrives in the form of Neil from HSG. He suggests that perhaps you guys should PM Sean and within seconds there are 2 messages for me. Has the herd now moved in a different direction or are these simply a few strays, time will tell.

Sushi Cat is back and it is now a feeding frenzy. She suspects that I wasn't around on the night that she was there, suggests that my business isn't being run properly and then offers a pearl of wisdom...."perhaps the overall combination of all the factors is just too much for the Irish Heather this year". Sushi Cat, you really bug me. I was there the night that you ate, I can state categorically that your food was hot and tasty and that your service was just fine....you are a boob.

She finishes with a gem, a warning.

"it is also important to realize that the dining (and drinking) public does have a choice, a wide choice in Vancouver of places to spend $$, so one bad or indifferent experience leaves a mark"

Susi Cat come out from the litter box and tell us who you are. From where have you gleaned this insight?

To date over 2500 people have read the rubbish that has been printed about my business and had I been on line sooner I would of have never allowed it to go this far. For the record, Ling, "T", Sushi Cat, RooStew, Fluffy, Appreciator, DameD & hayasaka.k don't ever darken my door again. Your actions have the potential to damage my reputation and ultimately my business. The Irish Heather is my life's work, it is how I pay my mortgage, how I will pay for my son's education and the source of income for the 22 people that I employ.

It is unforgiveable that you would decide to play food critic and endanger our livelihoods. Your posts have been at best incorrect and at worst malicious.

Of the 100's of people that we served, yours were the only complaints that we received. Sorry I forgot about the lady who sent back the mushroom ragout because it was too mushroomey.

It is my word against yours with the only difference being that everbody knows who I am and what I stand for. I'd like to see you put your livelihoods on the line and give me a chance to offer some "constructive critisim" on how you do your jobs. This is hardly likely as I imagine that you feel pretty safe behind your masks.

Shame, Shame, Shame.

Sean Heather,

Proprietor,

The Irish Heather

[Vancouver Lee]

Speechless.

["T"]

My name is Steven Sakai. That night there were 7 at our table. My wife and I alone spent 125.00 freakin' dollars. No problem with that since most of it was alcohol related, and we have certainly paid much more in other restaurants that we frequent. We had a lovely waitress, a great time, the fries were yummy, the mushroom strudel was yummy...we were all pretty happy with our meals and were well aware of what a great deal it was at $15 a pop. That said, at the end of the evening a few of us did have some comments regarding the set menu. We were all also very clear that we wanted to come back and enjoy more of your food and what seemed like great hospitality.

However, reading your posts has made us reconsider (I'm using the collective we, as both my wife and I had a similar response to your lovely missives). First of all, this is a forum where people post their thoughts and opinions regarding restaurants in this city. My understanding is that you started this thread...reading over some of the posts, I can see that some of them might get your nose out of joint, but if you have read responses on other threads, you must have known what to potentially expect. However, some of the responses contained some very positive feedback, and I thought, some valid criticisms. Perhaps you took some of these posts to be hostile...I'm not sure why...but your response certainly felt very bitter and angry. Reading your last post, my wife and I were in agreement that we would rather spend our money somewhere else.

Shame for us, shame on you

[edm]

eh, you know what's worse?

Putting in 70 hours a week, for 10 customers a night!

(when we're lucky)

[appreciator]

This all makes me sad, frankly and I feel like I need to say something here but.... really I just can't think what. Wow.... I honestly had no idea the anger that would errupt from our collective thoughts. I am shocked, really shocked. Obviously we may need to rethink this entire thing.... posting our reflections on various experiences and the impact that has. How can we, in all honesty, post what we feel is simply "our own individual opinions" when the fall out from that is the feeling that a business person could suffer possible ruin because of what we have to say. How can we argue against that?

On the other hand, if we can't feel free to post what we think then what happens here? Do we only share information of a positive nature?

Although having Sean tell me he "knows who I am" with that ominous tone.... huh?.... to that I can only say, WTF? I'll be opening my mailbox carefully from now on.

This thread has undoubtedly brought up a lot of issues.... and I, obviously, have no answers.

It's times like this though, when I almost wish I never found this forum .... it's definitately lost some of it's bloom.

Edited February 4, 2005 by appreciator (log)

[Andrew Morrison]

How 'bout them Canucks, eh?

But seriously, there are a few things that can be said here...perhaps the most appropriate of which could be "welcome to the internet, where the shit that gets tossed gets tossed back."

Should anyone be ashamed? No. Does Sean have the right to get up in all your faces like this? Hell yeah. Attaboy. Give 'em hell. If people talked shit so lightly about my business I'd be as pissed as a scallop dipped in mustard. But that's what it's all about. You put your neck in the public domain, and some are going to be irresistably drawn to hack at it with butter knives. Do they have the culinary chops to back their opinions up? It doesn't matter. So take the licks. Do you deserve it? It doesn't matter.

It's the internet. Damn bloody thing. Dangerous. Gimme radio, bubba.

Nobody should get freaked about Sean blowing off some steam. It sounds like a rough couple of weeks for him, especially with the negative comments coming on the heels of the phenomenal generosity and hospitality he showed many of us at the whiskey and cheese function (does that give him a license to be exempt from eG criticism? It doesn't matter, either).

Roll with it. The guy's a mate.

And Sean...way to have your staff's backs!

[inanimate]

hmmm... I guess the only way I'll know who's right is to go there and try the heather out myself

[Ling]

I'm sorry, but I don't think I was "tossing shit". I'm shocked and angered by the hostility. I thought my comments on the food were valid, and did not intend for them to be malicious. It's interesting how my positive comments about the food were ignored--I guess these are the only ones that are acceptable to Sean's ears.

My review on Bis Moreno came from the heart, and anyone who frequents this board knows that I've posted plenty of positive reviews about various restaurants.

I think Sean's post was totally out of line, and judging from my PMs, I'm not alone in my sentiment.

edit: Just wanted to say that I've said my piece and I'm bowing out of this thread from now on.

Edited February 4, 2005 by Ling (log)

[Andrew Morrison]

Out of line, perhaps. Understandable? Absolutely. It's his business. He runs three of them in an iffy neighbourhood with more dedication than pretension. It's a pub, for God's sake! There are also some intangible variables at play: he has been inundated with DOV customers just like the rest of us. He's also just moved house, has a young family, and is, like most chefs and restauranteurs I know, exceptionally proud of what he has accomplished.

Wrap all that up in a stogie and give it a puff.

We may reserve the right to criticise a restaurant, but don't let's all get shocked when you get a response along the lines of "Screw this crap! Who are these freaks?"

We use live ammo here. When Sean wonders out loud if our comments have the potential to harm his business, he's right on the money. We have no idea how many certified lurkers there are out there, from the press, from other restaurants, or people/business/suppliers he might have to deal with on a regular basis.

Who would want that shite?

My point is this: everybody take a big breath. Though you may or may not have "tossed shit", and though you may or may not have said only positive things with a smattering of negative is beside the point.

In the end all that matters is that we look at Sean's words and read them for what they are: a somwhat warped and definitely frustrated but perfectly reasonable spin on the negative things that have been said in a post he started.

If you're offended, I'd advise that you get over it. Not because you don't have the right to be offended, but because it's a pointless exercise in futility. It's his business. We can't expect him to post something like:

"Hey, this is awesome feedback. I take all your idle chitchat to heart. Thanks. I'll try better next time."

No. Not this week. Defintely not this week.

Let's everyone be bigger than our immediate instincts and put this thread to bed.

Edited February 4, 2005 by editor@waiterblog (log)

[winegeek]

Freedom of speech. Just as Sean has the right to vent, others have the right to tell you that your service sucks and so does your food. They are absolutely entitled to their opinion. The purpose of these posts were to review our thoughts,no matter what they may be. Every diner has the right of their opinion. Alot of times we may not agree with it but it is their right. I don't believe anyone had the responsibility to PM or email you with their feed back. That would leave us with a DOV thread that would resemble a big love-in. No thanks. I have to put up with guests who tell me that the salmon is undercooked because it is cooked to a perfect med-rare. Should I scream at them and tell them they dont know what the f*ck they're talking about?? Don't think so. One last point that we will disagree on. Picking up a bill and processing payment is one of the most important procedures during a night out. This coming from someone with 20+ years in the industry. If your servers don't have time, perhaps smaller sections and more servers would be beneficial. I have not gone back to places to eat that left me hanging at the end of the night, waiting for payment to be processed. It's not up to me to look for my server. Don't care what type of establishment you are.

[winegeek]

Edited due to double posting

Edited February 4, 2005 by winegeek (log)

[stovetop]

Everyone wants to be a critic; but The Irish Heather is what it is, how can one compare Bis Moreno or any other snotty white cloth to a pub, I think you need to take a step back and not be so serious, in all the write ups lately, I get the feeling that some people were not getting the attention you felt you deserved, it is not always about you (that is not any one specifically).

I like the Heather; it is a beautiful place in a beautiful city, in an old nebourhood with lots of character, in a building that is one of the oldest buildings in Vancouver.

Here is toast to you Sean

steve

[Irishgirl]

Let's enjoy great wine, food, and service everywhere; but keep it in perspective. I'm curious as to what other restaurants ($15 DOV menu) you went to and how they compared to the Irish Heather.

Cheers,

Stephen Bonner

←

Am I mistaken...or did no one respond to this question? Just wondering about the perspective of this whole thread.

I for one, know how hard it is to put out a three course meal for $15. I have never been to the Heather as it is not convienient for me...but this thread definitely got out of hand....and I agree with Sean that people were "Feeding" off each others reviews, and being downright malicious.

So people, when you read Sean's response...remember, if you can't take the heat...stay out of the kitchen. In other words... if you are going to dish it out...be prepared to have some slung back at you.

Irishgirl

[appreciator]

edited yet again because....

well....... I think I need to learn to keep my lip zipped. this is the 5th edit of the night........

Make no mistake... i have plenty to say on this whole matter but....... I really better not.

Edited February 4, 2005 by appreciator (log)

[vin]

It's about time somebody had the balls to say what's right. Good on you Sean, I for one will be at your restaurant and will be a loyal supporter. It's nice to see someone with moral fiber in our industry.

vince

[Coop]

I have never been to any of Sean's restaurants or have I participated in any DOV events this year. I have a big problem with what is being said in these threads.

First off I think the Irish Heather has probably come out well ahead monetarily because of e gullet. I think the buzz the restaurant has recieved here far out wieghs the harm a few negative posts could cause. It's obvious that people tried your place because you joined this community. I think it's wonderful that you have made all this effort to focus on food in your establishment.

That being said I believe that the people who posted about thier poor experiences meant you no malice. I think they were being honest. In the past I may have done the same thing. Now I would temper my displeasure because I know the pain it can cause a chef or owner.

In terms of being anonymus I have always signed my posts and most people on this board have met me personally. If anyone ever has a problem with my posts you all basically know where to find me. I have a real problem with the way you have charicterised some of the posters here. I hope you aren't that way with all of your customers. I fear you probably are.

If this becomes a place where customers square off against people of the industry we all know who has the most to loose. In conclusion if I do ever end up at your place and you decide to comment on my drinking habits like you did above then we will have a real problem.

Edited February 4, 2005 by Coop (log)

[ludja]

Maybe this would be interesting for people on the other "side" of the restaurant biz from consumers and egullet readers to hear, but I really do take people's reviews with a grain of salt even as I find them, for the most part, valuable. And consciously or no, I think that most others do as well.

Most of us realize that others are not professional food critics and are not doing a review in the sense that a trained food critic would, i.e. multiple visits, etc. And, in addition, most people have disagreed w/enough 'trained' food critics in some cases to not let *even* their opinion be the final arbiter in our decisions to try someplace out or to return.

In addition, I've eaten with and/or tasted wine with a number of friends and we can often have *very* different opinions about the dish. Ditto, service. I've had perfectly wonderful evenings at some places and later one person will have a very different memory of the pacing or service of the meal. (In those cases, often I feel they, the diner, were the problem and not vice versa).

It's also easy to espy if/when people are jumping on a bandwagon in a conversation or thread. I'm *not* necessarily saying this is what happened in this thread, but my radar considered the possibility--even if it was unintentional.

It sometimes isn't really that easy to describe a dish in detail from memory. I've run into this when I've tried myself to put a dining experience into words. It's not that simple to strike a balance in providing constructive criticism, even if good intentions are involved. Unintentionally, I think some statements may come out sounding a little rough. So again, when I read what is, essentially, an anonymous opinion given on egullet, this leeway is taken into account--whether the review is over the top positive or somewhat negative. The leeway varies based on my experience with poster in question.

On the flip side, and despite all the caveats listed above, I really enjoy hearing people's comments on food and service, and I don’t doubt their opinions are the best they could remember and express---AND, that Dine About Town is a difficult time to judge a new restaurant in exactly the same way one might at other times of the year. (Just ran into a similar personal experience in a DAT dinner down here in SF). In any case, this thread has given me a really interesting, multi-faceted view on the food and drinks served at Irish Heather.

As a complete outsider to the Vancouver scene, I can only say that based on all comments, my net conclusion would be to try Irish Heather on my next visit to Vancouver. The menu and drink pairings sound very interesting. I wish SF had a restaurant like this.

[2roost]

Wow - that was all a really fun read.

To the critics - kudos, I'm happy to read "civilians" views in this, or any other, forum. You pay for your opinions by dining out regardless of the time of year and this forum is designed to elicit your responses both positive and negative.

As an industry professional I share the same love/hate relationship with Dine Out as many others, but please the "we are too busy" excuse is a bit tired.

On the flip side while constructive criticism is fine please remember you are not really restaurant critics, you base your opinions (usually) on 1 visit without followup. Unless you want hordes of waiters standing in your office going "Oh you know that proposal wasn't as exciting as I thought it would be" or "I don't think they did enough research" keep the mood a little lighter please.

To Sean Heather - kudos as well. Passion is vital to surviving in this industry and your response definitely showed passion plus I love the way you stand up for your staff. However personal shots at the "critics" are a bit much, I understand why this is a personal affront to you and yours, but sometimes we just have to stand in the fire and burn.

As to the "you should have sent him a PM or email" I say BS - this is a forum. I don't see anyone complaining about bon mots being posted, should we just PM Neil to wax eloquently about hangar steak and gingerbread? The knife cuts both ways.

I had been drifting away from the Vancouver forum because I felt it was becoming a bit too "chatroomy" and a bit too much of a love fest - glad to be back.

Editted : reading Jamie's quote I finally found my spelling mistake (yuour office - indeed)

Edited February 4, 2005 by 2roost (log)

[Daddy-A]

Good morning! Anybody get any sleep last night??

A couple of points here ...

Keep the comments fair, and about the topic at hand. Personal attacks are out-of-bounds and will be removed from the thread. As I have said in numerous posts, remember there are real people attached to each post. Don't post something you wouldn't say to that person face to face.

Please be careful when quoting a previous post. i.e. We don't want to have posts with 5 copies of Sean's very long thread embedded therein. Quote what's relevant ... edit out the rest.

FYI, WE ARE BEING WATCHED. This is new territory for eGullet. Let's set a good example.

A.

[Andy Lynes]

...but this thread definitely got out of hand....and I agree with Sean that people were "Feeding" off each others reviews, and being downright malicious. 

Irishgirl

←

We try to monitor as high a percentage of what gets posted on eGullet as we can but with severly limited human resources and way too much work to do, it simply isn't possible to catch it all. As you will know we have a user agreement and suite of associated policies that we use to regulate the site, and having read every post on this thread with great interest, I believe that the thread has remained within the limits of our policies and agreements. Although the exchanges are certainly charged at times, I would characterise nothing contained within the posts as malicious.

In order that this thread remains on topic I would ask that you contact me by PM if you have any further policy related questions for me, and not to post them here. Thanks.

[SushiCat]

Posting with trepidation

If you can't stand the heat, you might want to get out of the kitchen! I feel fully justified in posting my comments to the thread which was started specifically for DOV comments on the Irish Heather.

Someone made a point about expectations on a $ 15. DOV dinner. I expect that each restaurant participating in DOV decides how they want to participate and that this includes planning a menu and detailing the cost. Based on the menu as it was posted, the Irish Heather sounded like a good bet. There were other positive comments on this board about the establishment outside of DOV. As a consumer I made choices based on things I have heard not only from e-gullet but from friends etc. I then talk to my friends if they are interested or if they ask. Posting those comments is like talking to a wider group of friends. I see this all as fair, my comments are just those, mine. Take 'em of leave 'em.

Sivia aka Sushicat

I am not hiding, but I will continue to use my moniker for my posts.

Edited February 5, 2005 by SushiCat (log)

[jamiemaw]

On the flip side while constructive criticism is fine please remember you are not really restaurant critics, you base your opinions (usually) on 1 visit without followup.  Unless you want hordes of waiters standing in yuour office going "Oh you know that proposal wasn't as exciting as I thought it would be" or "I don't think they did enough research" keep the mood a little lighter please.

To Sean Heather - kudos as well.  Passion is vital to surviving in this industry and your response definitely showed passion plus I love the way you stand up for your staff.  However personal shots at the "critics" are a bit much, I understand why this is a personal affront to you and yours, but sometimes we just have to stand in the fire and burn.

As to the "you should have sent him a PM or email" I say BS - this is a forum.  I don't see anyone complaining about bon mots being posted, should we just PM Neil to wax eloquently about hangar steak and gingerbread? The knife cuts both ways.

I had been drifting away from the Vancouver forum because I felt it was becoming a bit too "chatroomy" and a bit too much of a love fest - glad to be back.

←

I have enjoyed your posts, 2Roost--they are clearly balanced by first-hand experience. For that there is no substitute.

I too enjoyed reading this thread. Vancouver is an egalitarian city, and this is an Egulleterian site. That is the nature of the beast. As someone much more clever than I said, "I may disagree with what Mrs. Slabworth said, but I will defend to the death her right to say it." You may recall me writing at length recently in Vancouver that the unfettered discourse on eGullet (and other culinary websites) might well, in time, render my job redundant. Equally, I think this city is the better for proprietors like Sean Heather; I'd rather drink Guinness than the dregs of milquetoast any day.

Before that article, however, and before eGullet really gained traction (December, 2003, where the article in its entirety can be found under "Archives" and then "Diner"), I wrote about the tripartite symbyosis between restaurateur, critic and the dining public. I believe that those words hold true today, even if we might now add in the role of the "public critic", i.e. the Egullet poster:

"The role of the restaurant critic directly correlates to the price of dinner—the consumer needs sound advice before parting with the cash, especially if it’s a lot of cash. The power of the restaurant critic, however, correlates to the size of the market, the circulation and legitimacy of the publication, as well as the methodology of the review process. As for the restaurateur, well it’s a business that we critics are messing with, and there are families, suspicious bankers and surly partners involved, so any review should be balanced, objective, accurate and responsible.

That’s where flamboyant interlopers like A.A. Gill (of London's The Sunday Times)are called to account. You might ask yourself what you’d think if a stranger came into your office unannounced, sat down for a couple of hours to fondle your files, made a few notes, spoke briefly to your assistant and then left? Then two weeks later, when you open the Daily Asperator, you discover that “Mel’s fourth quarter marketing plan was dramatically underseasoned, perhaps deliberately so.”

A good example of a bad review—which is to say one that’s shamelessly inaccurate—was a column by Jacob Richler, a one-visit wonder--published in the National Post a summer ago. It was a review of the Vancouver seafood restaurant C, where Mr. Richler, in addition to professing an extreme dislike of seagulls and in-line skaters while dining al fresco (wuss), made several inaccurate statements of fact (wimp). Compare this to the same publication’s Financial Post, which, when analyzing other businesses, prides itself on objective journalistic protocols and high standards of accuracy. So, although the subjective is one thing (as with movies and books, you should find a restaurant critic whose taste you can literally trust), being wrong is something else again.

The fact is, the field is cluttered with conflict and is more subjective than judging figure skating. One critic I know, who extols the virtues of locality, seasonality and all things fresh, writes like a dream about restaurants that espouse these themes in the context of our emerging regional cuisine (cool). But he has an aversion to steakhouses (not so cool), even if they serve B.C. beef, free-range béchamel, Pemberton potatoes and home-made Okanagan tomato ketchup. My own bias is against anything pretentious. I disdain pretentious service (the imperious host or snotty sommelier), pretentious food (vertical presentation with the provenance of each ingredient noted, right down to its mother’s maiden name) and pretentious décor (faux-Tuscan and noisily styled moderne being the chief offenders). And I can smell pretension a mile away—because it’s a trait I despise in others while having learned to live with it in myself. . . .

William Grimes, who reviews anonymously for the New York Times every Wednesday, spends huge expense account money (more than $10,000 US some months) dining out. He and his dining cronies try to taste the entire menu before publishing a review. He is responsible, and because of unerring fact-checking, deadly accurate. Grimes is the most powerful restaurant critic in North America. Many consumers will dine out on a highly positive Grimes review and, while one does not guarantee the long-term success of a restaurant, it’s certainly very helpful. . . .

The Canadian equivalent of Grimes is Joanne Kates, who largely reviews Toronto restaurants but gets little respect in the industry (critic as victim, we say) for her seemingly single-visit reviews and lazy writing. A bright spot, though, and our own equivalent of Mariani, is Enroute magazine’s annual “Best New Restaurants in Canada.”

Conflict alert: Some small weeklies might have no budget whatsoever; their critic might be on their own financially, and might actually barter a review for dinner.

While this magazine doesn’t pretend to have the budget of the New York Times (we spend about $4,000 per month in restaurants), we do endeavour to respect the business, be accurate and fair, and revisit to eat enough of the menu to get the full flavour of the place."

Sorry about this long quote, however I think it underscores some of the points that 2Roost quite legitimately raises, and in so doing, perhaps stimulates me to hang on to my job for a while longer. And, time permitting, I think it's high time to start a thread called "The Restaurant Patron as Victim." That will be right after the Super Bowl, where, not unlike this thread, I will be in the unlikely position of cheering for both sides.

Best,

Jamie

Edited February 4, 2005 by jamiemaw (log)