chicken vs white veal stock

[zeitoun]

I seem to have a problem making chicken stock.

Recipes that call for white stock as one of the ingredients commonly favor the use of chicken base stocks over (white) veal base stocks because the former is supposedly milder than the latter. I usually like my stocks to be light so I do not cook them for more than 30 to 45 minutes. Depending on its use of course, I like my stock to be closer to an aromatic “infusion”. I never add salt and, along with the bones, rely simply on the aromas of mirepoix and bouquet garnie as additional flavoring agents.

Despite the widespread use of chicken stock, I have come to utilize veal stock as my main stock of choice to make stews, as a poaching liquid or as a base for some sauces because I find it to be less pungent than chicken stock.

In both veal and chicken stock preparations, I would "quick blanch" my bones 5-8 minutes to get as much impurities out first and trim some of the fat and/or organs (found in chicken backs) away before I plunge everything back in a clean pot filled with clean cold water. I would use chicken backs, necks and feet (one or two) only.

Despite that, I am more often than not quite displeased with the result. The smell and aroma of chicken bones (even in small quantity) seem to overwhelm all the other ingredients. Even if I use it as a liquid base for a stew, it retains a distinct and residual smell that I do not like. I have purchased my chicken scraps from various good sources, I still get the same results. For some reason, I must be doing something wrong...

So now when a recipe calls for chicken stock, I always use white veal stock instead.

I wonder if any of you have experienced similar effects, what differences you may have noticed between both stocks, and for what purpose you might prefer one over the other.

[RETREVR]

From my experience, a chicken stock will be stronger and can easily become the main flavor component in a dish, compared to veal stock...let alone white veal stock. I don't make white veal stock. I don't have a need for it. The beauty of a brown veal stock is that it is subtle enough to be used in a great many ways. It is not untill you greatly reduce veal stock that you get the great flavor out of it. A brown beef stock will have more flavor in its un-reduced form, but will not develop with reduction like veal will. Making a quality veal stock in 40 minutes is not possible. It is possible to make a chicken stock quickly for a soup. My thought would be that you are wasting 45 minutes of your life by using unbrowned vealbones to make a stock in that amount of time. Just make a vegetable stock if that is what you like (as insipid as that may be). I don't see a lot of recipes calling for white veal stock (probably because I don't use a lot of recipes).

Skimming is how you get the fat and impurities out. You could brown your chicken bones for kicks.

What type of stews are you making? Using chicken stock in a beef stew is not a good idea. Have you considered making a brown beef stock for your soups and stews?

Have you read the course here on egullet about stocks?

[zeitoun]

From my experience, a chicken stock will be stronger and can easily become the main flavor component in a dish,  compared to veal stock...let alone white veal stock.  I don't make white veal stock. I don't have a need for it.  The beauty of a brown veal stock is that it is subtle enough to be used in a great many ways.  It is not untill you greatly reduce veal stock that you get the great flavor out of it.  A brown beef stock will have more flavor in its un-reduced form, but will not develop with reduction like veal will.  Making a quality veal stock in 40 minutes is not possible.  It is possible to make a chicken stock quickly for a soup.  My thought would be that you are wasting 45 minutes of your life by using unbrowned vealbones to make a stock in that amount of time.  Just make a vegetable stock if that is what you like (as insipid as that may be).  I don't see a lot of recipes calling for white veal stock (probably because I don't use a lot of recipes).

Skimming is how you get the fat and impurities out.  You could brown your chicken bones for kicks.

What type of stews are you making?  Using chicken stock in a beef stew is not a good idea.  Have you considered making a brown beef stock for your soups and stews?

Have you read the course here on egullet about stocks?

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Whenever I make a stew that contains beef or pork for instance, I would use a darker stock such as brown beef or veal stock. I may use lighter (clear) stocks when I am braising duck legs for instance or poaching any kind of poultry, and I feel that a brown rich stock is not suitable for that kind of use. I more frequently use clear stocks for soups or in some cases to poach a vegetable.

I have tried many different methods for stocks and the ones offered by Thomas Keller in his French Laundry cookbook seem to work best for me. White veal stock is one of the stock recipes he offers. I feel that the other stock recipes (from other sources) in general make stocks that are too strong because they are simmered for too long of a period. If I want a richer stock as in for a sauce base, I would reduce my light stock until I get the flavor I want. I achieve better control on flavor this way.

A rich and strong stock is certainly not always desirable, it can overwhelm a dish rather than carry the flavors thereof. This mistake is very common in soups or risottos where stock should be a vehicle for the flavors/garnishes you are introducing. In this case, a strong stock can be detrimental to your overall dish if used improperly. Also, I prefer blanching my bones first because it is impossible to get rid of blood traces that may be contained in tissues and bones by simply skimming.

I would agree with you that making a quality brown veal stock is not possible in 40 minutes but on the other hand I strongly disagree with you that using unbrowned veal bones is a waste of time. A vegetable stock will be light in flavor but with unbrowned veal bones added I get a texture (coming from the gelatin in the bones) that I would not get with vegetables only. I get the same texture I would get if I used chicken bones without the strong chicken aroma.

So coming back to your original statement, if you think that compared to veal stock, chicken stock is stronger and can become the main flavor component of a dish, what do you mostly use it for? Most recipes call for chicken stock in close to everything that requires stock (especially in vegetable soups, potage etc…) It is precisely the problem I seem to have. When making carrot soup for instance I will taste the carrot but also the chicken. Personally, the only possible use I can see for chicken stock is with dishes that involve poultry only.

[chefzadi]

I think the that too many recipes call for the uneccesary use of stocks. Some recipes even suggest or imply that stock, wine or water be used interchangeably. My idea of a simple carrot soup is that it should heighten the characteristics of a carrot and not be masked by a cloying chicken stock.

In a commercial kitchen I don't use white chicken stock. I make a rich chicken demi-glace to serve with roast chicken. Some chefs use brown chicken stock for their Onion soup. I make mine with a beef bouillon. The beef bouillon makes for a more delicate and elegant finished product.

As a general guide, stocks should be used to heighten the flavors of other ingredients. Think of them as essences. I've even read recipes calling for the addition of stock to tomato sauce. Tomato sauce should like tomatoes not chicken or veal. For richer flavor slow roast the tomatoes first, don't add stock.

[Shalmanese]

Try making a vegtable stock and then fortifying it with pure gelatin powder. You get the same mouthfeel and unctiousness of a while veal stock without the distracting flavours.

[zeitoun]

I think the that too many recipes call for the uneccesary use of stocks... My idea of a simple carrot soup is that it should heighten the characteristics of a carrot and not be masked by a cloying chicken stock.

....

As a general guide, stocks should be used to heighten the flavors of other ingredients.  Think of them as essences.

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I fully agree with you, I also regard stocks as infusions or essences as you say. This brings another question to my mind. I wonder what is your take on salting stocks, I have seen many recipes call for it but I think it is unecessary. You achieve better control over the salt content of your final dish if an unsalted stock is used to begin with. From my own experience, a stock base that was salted at the stock making stage will always give a residual taste of sodium (even small) in the back of the palate.

[chefzadi]

No salt.

[CtznCane]

I've found it next to impossible to find veal bones. This isn't even considering their price when/if I did find them. This I find to be surprising living in the Bay Area. Beyond that I often will use 1 or 2 veal shanks when I'm making beef stock.

The basic recipe I use (with my own slight variance) is from Emeril's Lousianna Real & Rustic (his veal stock with beef bones instead). I typically make my beef and chicken stocks (along with vegetable broth) in large quantiities and keep it frozen as I am constantly using it for rice if not for sauces or stews.

Contrary to having a light stock I choose to go for a hearty stock. If I need a more delicate flavor I can always cut the strength of a stock but I can only bolster it so much.

[chefzadi]

I've found it next to impossible to find veal bones.  This isn't even considering their price when/if I did find them.  This I find to be surprising living in the Bay Area.  Beyond that I often will use 1 or 2 veal shanks when I'm making beef stock. 

    The basic recipe I use (with my own slight variance) is from Emeril's Lousianna Real & Rustic (his veal stock with beef bones instead).  I typically make my beef and chicken stocks (along with vegetable broth) in large quantiities and keep it frozen as I am constantly using it for rice if not for sauces or stews.

    Contrary to having a light stock I choose to go for a hearty stock.  If I need a more delicate flavor I can always cut the strength of a stock but I can only bolster it so much.

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I don't recall ever seeing veal shanks on the retail level here in Los Angeles. If you really want them, I suggest going to a wholesale meat seller. I don't know of any in your area though. Yellowpages.