Budget remodelling challenges

[kiliki]

We found our designer (actually, a design/build firm) at our neighborhood center's home fair. Any type of home show will have lots of booths with designers, contractors, etc. Home tours (we went to the Seattle Master Builders Kitchen and Bath tour) are another great venue. We took a number of business cards and brochures, talked extensively to these guys/gals, looked at their portfolios, and then asked for their reference list. AND, we actually called a ton of their references. Maybe you can start with that link Melissa posted and ask your local designers for their references.

You asked about budget and designing: After a bad experience with a designer/architect who drew up plans for an attic renovation that would have actually costed about $100,000 more than she figured, we went with a design/build firm, where the designers, architects and builders are all in the same firm. You tell them how much you want to spend-including design, tax, labor, materials, EVERYTHING-and they tell you what you get for that. It worked fantastically for us. They told us up front that they wouldn't be our cheapest option-they were a fairly big firm-but the fact that there were ZERO cost overruns, that they finished on schedule, and that they were pros every step of the way made it seem like a deal.

I'm confused about your comments about not having access to catalogs, etc. We shopped only at small stores-no big boxes-and got great customer service and looked at tons of catalogs. These smaller stores had the kind of stylish items I think you are looking for, too, as opposed to so much of what you see at Home Depot, that looks like it belongs in cheap tract housing. The salespeople at the smaller stores knew lots about their products, and there are certainly online forums, like gardenweb, where you can ask about the long term quality or whatnot of any specific products you are thinking about.

Edited March 15, 2006 by kiliki (log)

[LindaK]

I'm in the Chicago suburbs and I went into 2 design places that wouldn't talk to me at all with-out making an appointment and laying out some cash, $500. I assumed that would be the case at all independent designers.......so it's not............hum. Perhaps I wasn't dressed up enough and they were blowing me off?

The Home Depot makes you give them a $500. deposit up front too! What's happening......is it my area?

Sorry, but $500 for expertise doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Whether these are the people you want to give your $500 to is another question.

I'm lucky. I have a group of friends who are professional architects. Last spring, I organized my kitchen wish list into an "RFP" (request for proposals) and passed it out amongst them. A month later, everyone was invited to my house for an evening of dinner and drink so everyone could present their proposal. It was fun because I love these people and enjoy spending time with them under any circumstance. But the ideas I got for my kitchen were just incredible. The $500 I spent for food, drink, and party favors were cheap, as far as I'm concerned.

So my point is that you shouldn't hesitate to spend the money if you think you are getting the individual attention and expertise that you need. Not generic design ideas that you think they're given to everyone else. MelissaH sounds like she's found someone.

PS--still making decisions about my kitchen. It's not easy, even with an abundance of architects easily bought by good food and wine.

[C. sapidus]

Wendy: We are asymptotically approaching the finish of a remodel after gutting our kitchen to the studs and subfloor, so I speak from some experience when wishing you the best of luck. We used the Ikea planning software, read a bunch of books, and we are quite happy with the outcome. By great good fortune our stepson, a former high-end cabinet maker and mechanical engineering student, was available to install the cabinets and add a number of semi-custom details. We did the demolition, drywall, and painting ourselves, and hired out for electrical, plumbing, and flooring. If you are interested, we have some pictures at this link.

There are some excellent kitchen designers out there, but finding a good one is difficult without a recommendation. With your cooking experience and knowledge of kitchens, many kitchen designers may not be able to offer you any more than your landscape designer did. The GardenWeb Kitchen Forum has some incredibly helpful folks who live and breathe kitchen design. One of the books highly recommended there (unfortunately out of print):

Robin Murrell: Small Kitchens: Making Every Inch Count

We read several kitchen design books, and found helpful information in all. Some books addressed design philosophy and practice, some provided ideas, and others helped identify things that we did not want. Here are a few books that might be useful even if you hire a kitchen designer:

Donald Silvers: Kitchen Design with Cooking in Mind

Johnny Grey: Kitchen Culture

Jan Weimer: Kitchen Redos, Revamps, Remodels, and Replacements Without Murder, Suicide, or Divorce.

Martin and Richard Edic: Kitchens That Work: The Practical Guide to Creating a Great Kitchen.

Susan Maney: The Smart Approach to Kitchen Design.

Dream Kitchens: Recipes and Ideas for Modern Kitchens.

Good luck!

[Wendy DeBord]

During the work week I don't have time to follow everyones leads, but I greatly appreciate them! I will check each and everyone out!

I will post photos and start a thread here on my remodel as Varmint mentioned. I'd love to get some input from all of you and get your opinions on some details. That would be GREAT!

Just to clarify..........etc...

$500. is too much money for me to piss away talking to someone I won't use. I could use that money in so many other more important ways. We are pretty conservative finacially. We don't gamble and take risks.....just not our nature. We don't eat $500 dollar meals, ever. My mortgage is less then $500. (sans insurance and taxes). My house is definately a starter house, very small (although perfect for the 2 of us).

I'm trying to figure out how much money to invest in updating/remodeling in my house (we are doing more then the kitchen). It's a 13 year old home that is a "track" style house in a subdivision and everything needs updating and an increase in quality from what the builder gave us. Say I'm willing to put $30,000 into my kitchen, but when I sell my house it won't increase my price that much.......well then I'm not going to sink $30,000 into something that won't give me that return. How do I figure this part out? I can't determine my budget until I know those facts. I'm sort of stuck on this. Should I put $10,000 into the kitchen and $20,000 into the rest of the house, etc...? Where and how should we spend our money so we get the most resale value for the project?

$500. for a design service is very cheap, I would spend more then that for some quality help!!

So it's not that I don't want to pay for a designer/help it's just that I don't feel comfortable locking in with anyone until I KNOW that I want to use them and like their work. I don't want to go thru 2 or 3 designers at $500 a crack. I'd rather put that money into the one I'll use.

I'm also not sure we're looking at a full remodel, it might be that there aren't any better options then we have now in our space and I might just be doing a cabinet and counter update.

O.k...............so what I really want at this moment is to be able to look thru different boutique cabinet styles and find out if those cabinets are in our price range. To see if anything creates a spark. How do I gain access to these catalogs? Can go into a design store and ask to look at their catalogs with-out offending them? They seemed to push for setting up a consultation first.........can I get around that?

I do have a scrap book of photos that I've collected, I do know what I don't want and what's important to us. I've done the beginning homework looking thru tons of books and magazines. (I"ll go to the book store and look for the titles mentioned here, too.)

Last (for this post) no one's said what the designer fee's alone cost them. Anyone daring enough to share with me the price range of this service?

[FabulousFoodBabe]

Last (for this post) no one's said what the designer fee's alone cost them. Anyone daring enough to share with me the price range of this service?

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On my last to-the-wall-studs remodel, I paid an architect/designer $900 for the plans. That was deducted from the final cost of the job and since I knew I was going to buy my cabinets from them, I was fine with it. Also, I wound up being the general contractor for the job (not because i wanted to, believe me), and having a good relationship with this place allowed for me to store the cabinets without charge, and get on their installers' list for last-minute stuff.

Prior to that, I'd checked with quite a few places who charged anywhere from $500-$1500 for a design layout, and all of them were affiliated with cabinet and fixture dealers. Again, the price was deducted from the final cost of the project. This was in Atlanta.

[Sugarella]

I'm trying to figure out how much money to invest in updating/remodeling in my house (we are doing more then the kitchen). It's a 13 year old home that is a "track" style house in a subdivision and everything needs updating and an increase in quality from what the builder gave us. Say I'm willing to put $30,000 into my kitchen, but when I sell my house it won't increase my price that much.......well then I'm not going to sink $30,000 into something that won't give me that return. How do I figure this part out? I can't determine my budget until I know those facts. I'm sort of stuck on this. Should I put $10,000 into the kitchen and $20,000 into the rest of the house, etc...? Where and how should we spend our money so we get the most resale value for the project?

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Is it a hot real estate market in your area or are for sale signs up for months? See if you can find what any of these homes has sold for lately, and then whether or not there was any updating done to them. That should help you determine what your home could be worth if you do the reno.

If they're all considered starter homes in your neighbourhood, I wouldn't go spending a lot of money, because it'll still be considered a starter home.

[Daddy-A]

Where and how should we spend our money so we get the most resale value for the project?

Since I'm not familiar with the real estate market in your area this is a tough one to answer. What I can tell you is this:

1. Kitchen & Bathroom remodels will almost always give you the best return on your investment. Our real estate board lists the returns at anywhere from 85-110%.
   
2. Only worry about resale if you plan on selling within the next 3 years. Personally I ignore resale. Trends change, and you have no way of knowing what a potential buyer is going to want in a kitchen. You can invest $10K into a new kitchen only to have the new owner tear it out and put in what they want.
   

What does this all mean? Remodel because you want to, and invest what you feal comfortable with. There is no hard and fast rule ... it's all personal. I'm sure that you (Wendy) would pay much more attention to baking facilities (e.g. ovens, rolling surfaces, etc.) than I.

Last (for this post) no one's said what the designer fee's alone cost them. Anyone daring enough to share with me the price range of this service?

I work much the same way that's already been mentioned. I do my initial estimate (with customer provided dimensions) for free. This gets you a couple hours of consultation, a look at the plans, and a detailed estimate. My "retainer" is anywhere from $1500 - $2500 dollars and gets you more consultation, as well as a detailed set of plans and elevations. This fee is deducted from the contract if the client chooses to proceed with me.

Honestly, it's not about the fee, it's about putting some "value" on the service. If I charged nothing, the customer would value it as such. For me it's a qulaifier, and separates the serious clients from the tire-kickers. This is NOT to say I don't give out a lot of free advice. About 50% of my time in the showroom is spent talking generically about customers' homes and what they can do.

Wendy, I'd use the NKBA web site (www.nkba.org) to find some CKD's (Certified Kitchen Designers) in your area. Phone them up and see how they work. At the very least, go in armed with a budget. I can't stress enough how important that is. Even a budget range (e.g. $10-15K) is helpful.

A.

[Darcie B]

Wendy, I'm thinking it may just be your area, because when I went trolling the HD and Lowe's three years ago for kitchen advice, both were willing to do an initial design for free. The Lowe's designer even offered to come and measure our kitchen at no charge when drawing up the initial plans. I must have gone back a dozen times with changes but he was always pleasant, even when I did stuff like "move that over there...no, move it back again...no, back over there..." He came up with some good ideas too, even though he wasn't a CKBD. I was under no contract throughout the design phase. When I got my final plan I could, and did, take it without putting down a dime. I did buy my cabinets there but installed them myself (DH helped, of course ).

I would be miffed if no one were even willing to talk unless they had money up front. Since my budget was small ($15,000 - nearly all for materials as we did most of the labor) and I didn't want to make huge changes, I didn't hire an independent designer. I'm very happy with the end result.

Edited March 15, 2006 by Darcie B (log)

[bleudauvergne]

Don't forget your work triangles, take your time deciding, and good luck! We also thought we could get top of the line for our budget considering the small size of our kitchen but thought wrong! The first estimate (super chi chi grande epoche design) we had was nearly 25K Euro for a kitchen with a 1.5 square meter floor. So remember its really a good idea to do your shopping.

Also to save money try picking up tiles, floor material, etc. from places you'd not think of, and industrial materials with a look you like and sink your cash into good contractors.

We started with the Ikea quick download software, then picked up some catalogs that featured dimensions (which are seriously diffferent from Ikea, btw) and made our own designs. Ikea dimensions are 40-50-60cm wide and most of the designer stuff turned out to have odd sizes. You're an artist, Wendy - you also know what you want - you can do it!

We're happy with the pull out drawer like racks and stuff down below the countertop which turned out to be really useful, ergonomic, and gives us lots of useful space as opposed to cabinets below.

When you choose a sink, take my advice, the little "half sinks" on the side are bad! (we got a "1+.5 sink and the only thing the little sink does is hold dirty sponges, we wish we'd got a big one instead.)

Sending good thoughts as you shop for a new kitchen.

[Michael M]

Wendy, I just saw this thread, and I live in Evanston (also a Chicago 'burb, for those who don't know). When we redesigned our kitchen (a light redesign, no appliances changed spots), I researched for about a year like someone mentioned: found cabinets I liked in stores (EXPO, KdA, big boxes) then looked them up online.

We eventually went with Merillat Cabinets, and you can see every single thing they have online, which proved very, very helpful. For instance, we have a small house, so we ended up using bathroom cabinets in one part of the kitchen, since they are less deep, 18" vs. 24".

In another example, we created a sliding drawer in the previously unused 6" wide area beside the stove by purchasing a piece of cabinet filler and a pair of sliders that we found at one of the big boxes. The filler sizes were all given on their website.

Then, once we had some configurations, we made mock-ups of the cabinets on the (now empty) walls using old liquor boxes (free from behind the liquor store!) and lots of tape. Pulling paint off walls wasn't an issue, as we repainted later.

We also used painter's tape (easily removable) to mark out different things on walls to see if they felt right. In our case, it was a hole in a wall we eventually cut to open up the space.

As others have mentioned, looking at the stores and finding products, looking things up online, then perusing ideas in books/magazines turned out to be the way to go for us. You will run into things you didn't expect, but if you have the patience and the desire, it's possible.

[MelissaH]

I'm in upstate NY, far from any big cities. Our designer's plans cost $375. To go with the plans, we got some specifics as well: hoods she'd picked out, potential floor and wall colors, backsplash ideas, and the like. She also measured the kitchen for us, so we now have a set of professionally-done measurements. (We're still building a fudge factor into our cabinet runs, though!) It was a lot of fun to work with her.

MelissaH

[kiliki]

To add to Daddy-A's advice, if you really want to find out stats about remodeling payoffs, there's lots of info out there online (google!) and in remodeling books. I have seen stats that vary, but I've always read that kitchen remodels pay off most, then bathrooms. I've even seen stats specific to certain cities and what type of remodel (major/minor)-our local paper ran an article recently that said in Seattle, major kitchen remodels are paying off at 108% if sold within 3 years. These sources will offer lots of advice about what specific items in the kitchen will pay off most, too (ie high end ranges will not, mid range appliances will). But, as Daddy A pointed out, if you are going to be in the house for a while, none of that matters so much.

I checked out probably 100 kitchen remodeling books from the Seattle Library system when I was planning (the Kitchen Redos, Revamps and Remodels book mentioned above was particularly helpful). Looking at books, magazines, etc (Fine Homebuilding's annual Kitchen and Bath issue is especially good) was really helpful to organizing my thoughts and answering a lot of basic questions.

O.k...............so what I really want at this moment is to be able to look thru different boutique cabinet styles and find out if those cabinets are in our price range. To see if anything creates a spark. How do I gain access to these catalogs? Can go into a design store and ask to look at their catalogs with-out offending them? They seemed to push for setting up a consultation first.........can I get around that?

Can't you look at cabinets that aren't in a designers showroom? We went into a bunch of cabinet stores just in our neighborhood before using another local company and got brochures from each. We never saw huge catalogs, but the brochures they gave us showed everything we needed to know. For example, here is the website of the company we used (I'm not suggesting you use them-they are nowhere near you)-they show all the various styles, woods, etc. Are you looking for something more than this? If so, what exactly?

cabinets

Edited March 16, 2006 by kiliki (log)

[LindaK]

Just to clarify..........etc...

$500. is too much money for me to piss away talking to someone I won't use

Melissa, if my earlier posted sounded dismissive of the cost concern, it wasn't meant to. To the contrary. If you think you need to pay for additional expert advise, find someone you think will deliver something worth the price.

For what it's worth, my enviable experience of having a bevy of architects giving me free advice is that--9 months after my kitchen design "throw-down"--I finally understand that there is no perfect solution. I have a half dozen interesting and unique kitchen designs, each with their own point of view, great ideas, and limitations. In the end, I need to decide which trade-offs I'm willing to make.

[FabulousFoodBabe]

For what it's worth, my enviable experience of having a bevy of architects giving me free advice is that--9 months after my kitchen design "throw-down"--I finally understand that there is no perfect solution. I have a half dozen interesting and unique kitchen designs, each with their own point of view, great ideas, and limitations. In the end, I need to decide which trade-offs I'm willing to make.

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Ain't that the truth! When I am asked if my "dream kitchen" is the end result (by all but the architects and my husband, who now knows better), all I can do is smile and say, "close."

As for resale: I did a really cool remodel in our last house. When the last inch of countertop was laid, Mr. FB came home and said, "how'd ya like to move back to the Northeast?" When we put the house on the market, prospective buyers either loved the kitchen or hated it; I'm pretty sure that it kept a few people from making an offer.

When I showed the photos to our realtor here she agreed with the architect: buyers would be fighting for it.

[Wendy DeBord]

Well if this thread is any example of how much support/help/input I might get if I started a new thread getting specific with my layout and design.........then I think I'll give it a go here online.

Background: Hubby has been in construction his whole life. Built houses, brick layer, now he's a project manager for a major road bridge builder. So he lays out multi million dollar bridges with no room for error, day in and day out. So I'm certain he has the eye for the measuring details I might lack.

Also, as a former artist, I wouldn't touch a custom painting for less the $2,000. So I fully understand the value of the artist. I'm not looking to be cheap, just wise and keep my errors down.

New questions: When I look at cabinets I see the same door front designs from manufactor to manufactor. How do I choose one from the other? I asked this once at The Great Indoors and they showed me the differences between how the cabinets were build, how they close, etc.... But when shopping online how can I judge the good from the junk cabinets? Are there details/words I should watch out for?

Another set of questions: I'd really like to use every inch of space well since it's a small house and kitchen. I've seen things like kick plates that are pull out drawers, etc... and I'd like alot of pull out cabinet details. Some of the cabinet companies don't show alot of these details. If they don't show it, does it mean they don't have it? Do I not choose that companies cabinets and only look for companies that have those features? Or do I look at adding in the inserts (pull out features) myself after market? And, has anyone looked at the cost differences on this?

[Sugarella]

Another set of questions: I'd really like to use every inch of space well since it's a small house and kitchen. I've seen things like kick plates that are pull out drawers, etc... and I'd like alot of pull out cabinet details. Some of the cabinet companies don't show alot of these details. If they don't show it, does it mean they don't have it? Do I not choose that companies cabinets and only look for companies that have those features? Or do I look at adding in the inserts (pull out features) myself after market? And, has anyone looked at the cost differences on this?

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Now....kick plates as pull out drawers I've never seen...that's a great idea. I'm more inclined to go with feet on my cabinets though so it all looks like furniture, but that's just my style.

Don't forget about the few inches you've got behind your drywall..... if you did an insert similar to those old fashioned medicine cabinets that are built in you'd have an awfully terrific spice rack. (Glass doors)

And yes.... go ahead and do it here. I'm sure you'll get all kinds of suggestions that'll be useful. I just came across Melissa's thread and I think I'm a bit too late to the game to throw ideas in there now that's she's getting started, but I love redesigning spaces. Hey....free advice doesn't hurt.......

When you've got time, see if you can post a floor plan of the whole floor of your house, with dimensions please.

Edited March 16, 2006 by Sugarella (log)

[MelissaH]

Wendy,

I found eGullet to be a great resource in kitchen planning and designing. Go ahead and show us some of what you're thinking of, and we'll let you know what we think. You'll get all kinds of different opinions on every subject, but you're free to take what you want and leave the rest. You'll probably even learn something!

MelissaH

[Wendy DeBord]

The kick plates that pull out into drawers do look exactly like traditional kick plates. I saw them this week on a kitchen design show on cable.

[bleudauvergne]

New questions: When I look at cabinets I see the same door front designs from manufactor to manufactor. How do I choose one from the other? I asked this once at The Great Indoors and they showed me the differences between how the cabinets were build, how they close, etc....  But when shopping online how can I judge the good from the junk cabinets? Are there details/words I should watch out for?

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For the structure of the cabinets, one thing you should be prepared to accept is particleboard. What you'll find, or at least what we found was that the idea of having all hardwood cabinets is really just a selling point and not worth the expense because even the highest quality kitchen cabinets use particleboard for the structure, albeit very sturdy thick good quality particleboard. So be prepared to see it and not be afraid of it. We had a long talk with the contractor that came to install our chosen cabinets. He did many of the installation jobs for the show kitchens for upscale designers around Europe and he said that almost eveyone manufactures particleboard cabinet structure, and the quality varies.

For the fronts, you can choose hardwood or pressed depending on the look you want.

He also advocated choosing kitchen stuff that has been designed with installation in mind, like lathed recesses for hardware and thought about providing room for use of tools for installing, mounting etc. If you have questions about quality you might want to talk to contractors about how certain kinds of kitchens install because they know the products.

[Marlene]

Our cabinet maker makes solid hardwood cabinets, including shelves. In general, I've found my kitchen guys to be several thousand dollars lower than the average kitchen deisgn place here. The other words to look out for are "filler strips". Many contstructors of cabinets use these to "fill in" spaces between cabinets etc. A really good cabinet maker can do this without any filler strips at all.

[Darcie B]

For the structure of the cabinets, one thing you should be prepared to accept is particleboard.  What you'll find, or at least what we found was that the idea of having all hardwood cabinets is really just a selling point and not worth the expense because even the highest quality kitchen cabinets use particleboard for the structure, albeit very sturdy thick good quality particleboard. 

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This is not quite true. Most of the higher end cabinets, even from the big box stores like Lowe's and Home Depot, are constructed of solid wood and plywood, which is a very different creature than particleboard.

I know that many people find particleboard acceptable, but it is not for me. It is heavier than plywood and IMO more susceptible to water (and other) damage. I had particle board cabinets in my former apartment, and the steam from the coffee maker caused them to swell and warp. I paid 15% more for the all-plywood construction of my current cabinets (about $1000) and I think it was money well spent. The cabinets were lighter and therefore easier to install, and we needed to watch the weight since our house was not designed to accommodate all the cabinets and the island we installed.

[bleudauvergne]

Wow, that must have been a nightmare, not having waterproof particleboard in a kitchen. Were you still under warranty? We did our shopping thoroughly from bottom to top and everything in between, i.e. close examination of specs. I've seen the cheap stuff but also the higher grades of particleboard, which did not seem to be the same type of particle board at all. When we did our shopping hardwood was out of our price range (but it might be less expensive in the States & Canada). The guy who installed our kitchen did not feel that we were making a compromise by not going with all hardwood cabinets and we have not had any problems at all but I do think it is a question of making sure you're getting a high grade board suitable for the use it's going to get in the kitchen. Just to let you know that high grade particleboard exists and is in common use in many of the higher quality kitchen cabinets. Particleboard has come a long way in the past 20 to 30 years.

[Daddy-A]

Just to let you know that high grade particleboard exists and is in common use in many of the higher quality kitchen cabinets.  Particleboard has come a long way in the past 20 to 30 years.

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I promised myself I wouldn't get entangled in this debate

Lucy nailed it. The word "particleboard" has a nasty connotation to it. Truth is, in most situations it's a better, stronger material than plywood for kitchen cabinetry. The material goes by many different names, but make sure the board being used has 100% wood fibre. Many will use other post-consumer waste, and it just falls apart once a screw has been installed. The material we use holds a screw as well as plywood.

Also consider the surface. If you're using plywood with a veneer surface compared to a melamine surface (on plywood or fibreboard) the veneer will wear out long before the melamine. The old cabinets that swell when they got wet were likely cheap particleboard with a glue-on vinyl surface. A good melamine covered fibre-board won't suffer the same fate unless you soak it for a day or so in water ... something that will also dammage solid wood and plywood.

Finally, once those cabinets are installed, there's really very little difference structurally between any material. Focus on good hardware (hinges, slides, etc.).

A.