Heritage Turkeys

[Dr. Funk]

roasting a heritage breed bird (or two)

these old fashion birds are also raised the old fashioned way -- with plenty of grass and sunshine -- they need to be cooked quite differently than their modern, mega-farmed counterparts.

a bit more to read about ..

discussion on Bourbon Reds

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Before you give much credence to the cited aticle, this guy believes in brining turkey and has a problem with believing that a person would prefer an un-brined bird. There are also several outrageous lies in the article.

[docsconz]

roasting a heritage breed bird (or two)

these old fashion birds are also raised the old fashioned way -- with plenty of grass and sunshine -- they need to be cooked quite differently than their modern, mega-farmed counterparts.

a bit more to read about ..

discussion on Bourbon Reds

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Before you give much credence to the cited aticle, this guy believes in brining turkey and has a problem with believing that a person would prefer an un-brined bird. There are also several outrageous lies in the article.

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Please be more specific.

[tanabutler]

roasting a heritage breed bird (or two)

these old fashion birds are also raised the old fashioned way -- with plenty of grass and sunshine -- they need to be cooked quite differently than their modern, mega-farmed counterparts.

a bit more to read about ..

discussion on Bourbon Reds

←

Before you give much credence to the cited aticle, this guy believes in brining turkey and has a problem with believing that a person would prefer an un-brined bird. There are also several outrageous lies in the article.

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Brining a heritage bird? Blegh. He deserves what he gets.

[derricks]

Brining a heritage bird? Blegh. He deserves what he gets.

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Yeah, it seems like a waste. We've not ever brined our birds (this will be our third year) and they've come out fine.

Last year I smoked one and roasted the other. I don't remember the precise details on the roasting, but it was fairly low temp for a long time. I think I used the Cook's Illustrated Poultry book's recipe for turkey and adjusted as I felt appropriate. Sorry I can't offer more details.

[docsconz]

I wasn't referring to the brining aspect. I'm getting two fresh-killed red bourbons and I wouldn't think of brining them. I guess I need to be more specific about what I was asking. Could you please be more specific about the "lies"?

[tanabutler]

I wasn't referring to the brining aspect. I'm getting two fresh-killed red bourbons and I wouldn't think of brining them. I guess I need to be more specific about what I was asking. Could you please be more specific about the "lies"?

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Hey, dude, I didn't even see your post when I made mine. Sometimes that happens.

I didn't even read about the "lies," because for me, the big lie was that brining does anything to a turkey I'd want to taste. I don't know if I'm a heretic or a lemming.

[Dr. Funk]

Among others, that broad-breasted whites can't breed. If so, what were mine doing out there in the yard? And how did I get fertile eggs? I've been raising these birds for 48 years and if you let them out into the field, they are the best ever. I've also raised Bronzes and they are just as stupid as the Beltsville Whites. Actually, all domesticated turkeys are pretty stupid - you have to teach all of them how to eat out of a feeder.

[jpr54_]

this is my first time making a heritage turkey for thanksgiving-

my son is picking up the turkey wednesday pm at flatbrook farm in montague, new jersey-

is the hype in nytimes etc. worth the extra money, etc.?

joanne

Edited November 21, 2004 by jpr54_ (log)

[jpr54_]

but how do these turkeys taste in comparison to store bought?

[BrentKulman]

I'm doing a heritage turkey for the first time this year and was planning to brine it.

I've also never previously brined a turkey.

So are you folks saying that brining turkeys in general is a waste of time or that brining heritage turkeys is a mistake.

Please elaborate for those of us who don't know any better.

[Gifted Gourmet]

the general response here .. appears to indicate that brining is a virtue ...

more brining discussion here

Dave the Cook seems to enjoy the pleasures of brining ... yet our recent Q & A with Harold McGee indicated that he is not in favor of the brining process ...

[winesonoma]

Local article yesterday on the lady I buy mine from. http://www1.pressdemocrat.com/apps/pbcs.dl...001/1033/NEWS01

[Dr. Funk]

but how do these turkeys taste in comparison to store bought?

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I don't know - haven't had a store-bought turkey since I was married to wife #1 and that's been 27 years. Of course, with her cooking skills it probably wouldn't have mattered.

[tanabutler]

I'm doing a heritage turkey for the first time this year and was planning to brine it.

I've also never previously brined a turkey.

So are you folks saying that brining turkeys in general is a waste of time or that brining heritage turkeys is a mistake.

Please elaborate for those of us who don't know any better.

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Brent,

As Harold McGee explained, brining essentially replaces the actual flavor of your very flavorful bird with salty water. There is absolutely no need for it, and I am solidly in the anti-brining camp. I think it's the emperor's clothes. I've never cooked a dry turkey in my life, following a recipe I'd like to link to, but Epicurious.com's recipe site is down for maintenance.

Just because there is a thread with a lot of participation about brining doesn't mean that it's a good idea. Don't brine your heritage turkey. I won't ever brine again. It ruins the pan juices, which are rendered useless for gravy.

Be good to your bird!

Edited November 21, 2004 by tanabutler (log)

[Dr. Funk]

I'd never even heard of brining 'til this year. What is this? Kashering for Goys? I don't care what anybody says, soaking any meat in a salt solution is just a waste of good meat. Even my sister the Rabbi agrees with me on this one.

[Gifted Gourmet]

I'd never even heard of brining 'til this year.  What is this?  Kashering for Goys?  I don't care what anybody says, soaking any meat in a salt solution is just a waste of good meat.  Even my sister the Rabbi agrees with me on this one.

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Nope, not kashering for anyone ... ask your sister about the whys and wherefores of kashering a fowl (to remove blood) .. whereas brining is supposed to add juiciness and a bit of saltiness ... ostensibly already present in a kosher turkey ...

[georgesimian]

I brined a turkey last year following Zuni Cafe Cookbook, then smoked it. It was good, but it tasted like ham. And I have to say, after I dumped out the brining water which it was in for two or three days, it wasn't so appealing. It wasn't rotten, but the smell of turkey water just put me off.

This year, I've got a heritage turkey coming from FedEx and I'm planning on going the other way, ie, just cooking it in the oven. The only problem for me is the thermostat on my oven is acting up and it's not getting up to 400, so I might have to do it on the Big Green Egg. I'll probably rub some rosemary, thyme and salt and pepper under the skin. I might add some butter, or olive oil, like the article referred to above. I'll have to see what it looks like.

I'm looking forward to this turkey. I didn't think about it last year until it was too late, I couldn't find any on the web. I ordered this one a month ago. I don't like normal turkey, so I'm hoping this has some flavor in it.

[docsconz]

Necessity is the mother of invention, and Melissa and I quickly concocted a scheme. I bought a turkey breast from a free-range Broad Breasted White, and decided to cut it in half and prepare it two different ways. Half I roasted as is, and half I first brined, a common and to my mind highly effective technique for making the modern turkey palatable. The heritage bird I roasted as is, letting it stand on its own. This ensured enough turkey meat for everyone and gave everyone a way to compare the different breeds.

This quote came from the article on Bourbon reds linked to in Gifted Gourmet's post above. To be clear it was the supermarket turkey that was brined and not the heritage bird. I'm not sure where in this thread anyone got the idea to brine the heritage bird.

[kellycolorado]

From what I've read, brining is best for bland chickens and turkeys, and the heritage breeds are supposed to have some flavor. This is my first year roasting a heritage turkey and I won't be brining it. I'm going to use the recipe at Mary's Turkeys, where my turkey came from.

Any heritage briners, I'd be really interested in hearing how your turkey turns out- I keep reading that it makes the pan juices way too salty for gravy.

edited to fix link

Edited November 24, 2004 by kellycolorado (log)

[Hest88]

I'll let you know. We have a Mary's heritage this year as well and I was tempted not to brine it but my Chinese relatives have enjoyed the (free-range/organic) turkeys so much more after I started brining. However, they don't like gravy so we never make it. The pan juices are always too salty to be used, but since we've just tossed them it's never been an issue.

[georgesimian]

I don't want to second guess you, kellycolorado, but that recipe at Mary's kitchen says to cook at 350 and everything else I've read says these Heritage birds cook better at higher temps, like 450. And I'm not sure what marinading the bird on the outside of the skin is going to do. All the ingredients seem right, but the process doesn't make sense to me.

There's some other recipes in this thread that make more sense. Just my opinion.

[BrentKulman]

From what I've read, brining is best for bland chickens and turkeys, and the heritage breeds are supposed to have some flavor.  This is my first year roasting a heritage turkey and I won't be brining it.  I'm going to use the recipe at Mary's Turkeys, where my turkey came from.

edited to fix link

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While we didn't get our Bourbon Red from Mary, that marinade sounded wonderful. Minus the onions (an oversight we were in no mood to correct), we just rubbed it on our bird and stuck it in the fridge.

One thing we found was that the skin was very tight on the flesh and there was no way we could loosen it to sneak some marinade underneath. Anybody else have this problem?

One recommendation that the farmer who sold the bird made to us was to roast the bird breast side down, initially, so that the fat drains from the back onto the breast meat. Halfway through cooking, flip it breast side up and finish cooking. He also said not to baste in the last half so that skin can become really crispy.

We're going to serve the bird with Mama Dip's Cornbread dressing which is a family favorite.

[Hest88]

Okay, here's my report. I ended up with a simple brine this year because I really wanted to see if the heritage turkey tastes significantly different. So, instead of my usual where I throw in a ton of star anise, 5 spice powder, and ginger in an attempt to conform to Chinese tastes, I did a cup of salt, a cup of brown sugar, and some bay leaves. The nearly 17lb turkey looked longer and leaner than the usual, but not significantly so.

Before roasting I rubbed butter and pepper in and out. I also found that it was more the skin was very tight, but finally managed to pry it from the flesh to get under.

I started the oven at 425 for half an hour, then switched to 350 for the remaining time. I also had it breast side down for the first hour, then flipped up for the remaining. It took, almost to the minute, 3 hours total in the oven. I didn't bother to tuck the wings under and they didn't even burn!

The turkey was a resounding success, with a nice crispy skin. The dark meat was much darker than my usual free-range turkey. I'd expected, from other reports, that the breast meat would be whiter than expected, but I was surprised that it was only faintly more ivory than the regular turkey. My dad and my DH thought the turkey tasted significantly more "bird-like" than prior years, as opposed to what they thought of as that bland turkey taste. (I only eat the skin and wings off of all poultry, so it was hard for me to judge.) My aunt thought the breast meat was also more flavorful.

The brine was perfect. It added just enough salt to give it flavour but not enough to overwhelm the meat. In fact, I tasted the drippings and this year they were actually not so salty that they would be unusable. I think I'll stick to 1 cup of salt from now on.

Anyway, so it looks my family thinks the heritage turkey is worth the extra money and it will be what we order next year too.

Edited to add: Oh, I noticed that I got a huge amount of liquid draining from the turkey after it was done. I can't figure out if it's because I rubbed too much butter on it this year and it liquidified or the bird was juicier or what!

Edited November 26, 2004 by Hest88 (log)