Nougat Montelimar: revisted

[mikeycook]

Going to try a couple more batches tonight (I guess in about 10 hours), same basic recipe, but getting the honey to a higher temperature this time (didn't get it to a boil before the sugar syrup was at 330. It needed to be just a little firmer as when it got to room temperature it was never really solid (just kept it in the fridge). Will probably dip one of the batches in chocolate.

Another question... I was thinking about trying the non-chocolate version with tupelo honey, but when reading a little about it at the Savannah Bee Company website they said that it had "a rare sugar makeup that prevents it from ever crystallizing". Would that make it a bad choice for nougat?

Also, has anyone tried making nougat with a lavender honey? Is it something that is done commercially?

Edited November 11, 2005 by mikeycook (log)

[Patrick S]

What's the best tool and method to cut nougat? Oiled chef's knife?

[jgarner53]

Also, has anyone tried making nougat with a lavender honey? Is it something that is done commercially?

Actually, I believe that traditionally, nougat de montelimar is made with lavender honey.

[Patrick S]

I tried the Torres recipe today. I added some almond extract towards the end of the whipping. The flavor is awesome. I love the combination of honey and almond extract. I used all almonds instead of almonds and pistachios. I poured/scraped the nougat into a half-sheet pan, which I think was too big -- the nougat is only about 1/2" thick. Next time I'll use a 13x9 or maybe even a 9x9.

I almost had the same problem as you, mikeycook -- the honey was slow coming to a boil, while the sugar goes from 265 to 330F pretty quick. But I turned down the heat on the sugar and turned up the heat on the honey and was able to get the honey to boil in time.

Cutting the stuff up is proving to be a pain though. I just tried an oiled chef's knife, and it worked, but the nougat was sticking to the knife pretty good, and I have to pull the strips off of the knife, so the cuts didn't look as clean as I'd like. I'm going to chill the nougat and do some more experimenting tomorrow.

Edited November 12, 2005 by Patrick S (log)

[mikeycook]

Patrick, I found that it is hard to cut through, but if you wait until it is completely cool at room temperature, it is not terrible. I was going to refrigerate it first, but was afaid it would not cut cleanly. I tried the knife sprayed with Pam and without and it didn't seem to make a difference.

Made 2 batches, one dipped in chocolate, one not. I started the honey much earlier this time and watched the temperature. I think the honey was at around 250 when I put it in. It made a huge difference in how well the stuff held together. I do still find that if you leave them out at room temperature for a few hours, they begin to sag slightly, but my apartment might have been running kind of hot last night.

I poured each batch into a 9x9 brownie pan lined with parchment sprayed with Pam and that seems to give it the right thickness. Then I put another piece of sprayed parchment on the cutting board and flipped the batch onto it. Then I cut it into 8 long strips and cut each strip in 3. I think next time it might be worth trimming the edges so each you can see almonds and pistachios all the way around.

I am going to try my next batch with lavender honey, although I would also like to figure out if tupelo honey is a good or bad idea.

Edited November 13, 2005 by mikeycook (log)

[Patrick S]

Made 2 batches, one dipped in chocolate, one not.  I started the honey much earlier this time and watched the temperature.  I think the honey was at around 250 when I put it in.  It made a huge difference in how well the stuff held together.  I do still find that if you leave them out at room temperature for a few hours, they begin to sag slightly, but my apartment might have been running kind of hot last night.

←

mikeycook, how did your undipped nougats turn out? How well did they hold their shape? I tried a different nougat recipe (not Montelimar) that had 1/4 of the sugar beat into the whites at 250F, and the rest beat in at 300F. These nougats cut like a dream with my chef's knife, no problem at all. But by the next morning, the cut pieces had flattened out quite a bit. I'd like to be able make nougats that hold their shape at room temperature, even without a chocolate coating. . .

[mikeycook]

Made 2 batches, one dipped in chocolate, one not.  I started the honey much earlier this time and watched the temperature.  I think the honey was at around 250 when I put it in.  It made a huge difference in how well the stuff held together.  I do still find that if you leave them out at room temperature for a few hours, they begin to sag slightly, but my apartment might have been running kind of hot last night.

←

mikeycook, how did your undipped nougats turn out? How well did they hold their shape? I tried a different nougat recipe (not Montelimar) that had 1/4 of the sugar beat into the whites at 250F, and the rest beat in at 300F. These nougats cut like a dream with my chef's knife, no problem at all. But by the next morning, the cut pieces had flattened out quite a bit. I'd like to be able make nougats that hold their shape at room temperature, even without a chocolate coating. . .

←

The newer batch kept their shape much better. They kept their shape completely intact for most of the first day. I cut the order into 24 pieces, about the size of a small candy bar. When I brought them back to my apartment, which was a little too warm, they did good for a while but, like yours, sagged a little after a few hours. Not too bad, but I decided to put keep them in the fridge to be safe. The chocolate helps it hold the shape lnoger at room temperature for obvious reasons and is good as well.I am still looking for the secret to the shape and have a couple of thoughts (since I am no candy expert, I can't say for sure how well these will work.)

1. More sugar syrup.

I don't think I would need to do a lot, but it seems to me since the sugar syrup is what is really holding it together. I don't think I would need much more, but would probably try to increase the percentage slowly.

2. Heat the honey to a higher temperature.

I am less optimistic on this, particularly since I already heated it to around 250, but perhaps a little higher temperature would make the honey just a little bit firmer.

I have a few nougat recipes that are in French and I am going to try to do a little translating (which I am poor at) to see if it yields any clues.

Thanks, Patrick. Nice to know I'm not doing this all by myself.

Edited November 17, 2005 by mikeycook (log)

[mikeycook]

Well, it turned out that my problem with the nougat holding together was completely a matter of my candy thermometer not ready properly (something I was warned against in this forum, but never completely heeded.) This time I ran with two thermometers, this time adding a Taylor candy thermometer, which read about 20 degrees cooler than the one I had been using. The additional cooking made all of the difference and the resulting nougat held together perfectly at room temperature. Now I can play more with the actual ingredients and methods of preparation.

[rickster]

I experimented with a Martha Stewart recipe for pistachio torrone over the weekend, which called for honey and sugar to be heated to 320 F, then allow temp to fall to 300 F before whipping into egg whites. Results were pretty good, but I would like to improve. A couple of questions:

Torrone was a bit softer than I would like. Is this an issue of maybe an inaccurate thermometer and the temperature being too low? Or too high? Could overwhipping soften the torrone?

Flavor was a bit over caramelized for my taste, despite using a mild honey. Can this be solved by heating the honey and sugar separately, with the honey to a lower temperature, as suggested in some of the montelimar recipes?

[mikeycook]

I experimented with a Martha Stewart recipe for pistachio torrone over the weekend, which called for honey and sugar to be heated to 320 F, then allow temp to fall to 300 F before whipping into egg whites. Results were pretty good, but I would like to improve. A couple of questions:

Torrone was a bit softer than I would like. Is this an issue of maybe an inaccurate thermometer and the temperature being too low? Or too high? Could overwhipping soften the torrone?

Flavor was a bit over caramelized for my taste, despite using a mild honey. Can this be solved by heating the honey and sugar separately, with the honey to a lower temperature, as suggested in some of the montelimar recipes?

←

I am certainly no expert, but I will give you my 2 cents.

1. I would heat the honey separately. I believe I get the honey to about 220 degrees (I stop when the honey starts to bubble and rises in volume).

2. The softness of the nougat/torrone seems to be direct the result of how high the sugar solution gets (as well as the ratio of honey to sugar solution). I would recommend trying to get the sugar solution to 330, as that 10 degress might make a big difference.

I first add the heated honey to the egg whites and continuing to let the mixer run until the sugar solution is done. I do not let it cook particularly, I just start streaming that in as soon as it is ready.

Also, if you are roasting nuts according to the Torres recipe, I would recommend an adjustment. At 325 for 20 minutes, I found that almonds burned very quickly (not sure if I didn't turn them enough or it is a risk anyway). Instead, I roasted the nuts at 250. The almonds took 35 minutes, while the pistachios only 20-25. The roasting is more even that way. Also, don't forget to either lay the nuts out in a single layer or toss in a large bowl to bring the temperature down immediately (and stop them from cooking). I have had batches of nuts that were great right out of the oven, but somewhat burned after sitting in a bowl.

I haven't made torrone myself yet, but it looks to me like the differences are primarily the nut mix (hazelnuts and sometimes dried fruits with torrone, while only almonds and pistachios in nougat Montilimar).

Also, I have been using just plain, generic, large volume honey from my local shop-rite and the flavor is great. That being said, I am going to play around with a few other varieties (orange blossom, tupelo, etc) and brands to try to get a slightly brighter honey taste.

[Patrick S]

Well, it turned out that my problem with the nougat holding together was completely a matter of my candy thermometer not ready properly (something I was warned against in this forum, but never completely heeded.)  This time I ran with two thermometers, this time adding a Taylor candy thermometer, which read about 20 degrees cooler than the one I had been using.  The additional cooking made all of the difference and the resulting nougat held together perfectly at room temperature.  Now I can play more with the actual ingredients and methods of preparation.

←

So you were undercooking by 20?

Are you still using the Torres recipe?

Are you taking the honey to 250 and the sugar to 330?

Thanks for the report!

EDIT: We were posting at the same time. So you just bring your honey to a boil? Have you checked what temp that is?

Edited December 5, 2005 by Patrick S (log)

[rickster]

Thanks mikeycook.

In my very limited experience with montelimar, it is considerably harder than torrone, which should be chewy. But I thought mine turned out too soft.

This recipe does not toast pistachios, but I would for other nuts. I usually do it for 10-15 minutes at 350.

[mikeycook]

Well, it turned out that my problem with the nougat holding together was completely a matter of my candy thermometer not ready properly (something I was warned against in this forum, but never completely heeded.)  This time I ran with two thermometers, this time adding a Taylor candy thermometer, which read about 20 degrees cooler than the one I had been using.  The additional cooking made all of the difference and the resulting nougat held together perfectly at room temperature.  Now I can play more with the actual ingredients and methods of preparation.

←

So you were undercooking by 20?

Are you still using the Torres recipe?

Are you taking the honey to 250 and the sugar to 330?

Thanks for the report!

EDIT: We were posting at the same time. So you just bring your honey to a boil? Have you checked what temp that is?

←

I believe the temperature was around 230 for the honey. It might have been a little higher.

[mikeycook]

Thanks mikeycook.

In my very limited experience with montelimar, it is considerably harder than torrone, which should be chewy. But I thought mine turned out too soft.

This recipe does not toast pistachios, but I would for other nuts. I usually do it for 10-15 minutes at 350.

←

I am no expert on nougat, but the packaged versions I have bought are relatively soft, like torrone. I think this recipe is a little firmer, more like a Charleston Chew bar. When you put them in the refrigerator, it will also break up like a Charleston Chew. I wouldn't characterize any of the nougat I've had as hard, unless it is refrigerated.

I think I'll have to buy some Torrone to compare (they have been advertising big chunks of it in Dean and Deluca's catalog).

[mikeycook]

I have now made the Torres recipe a number of times and it has been successful every time once I got the temperatures right, except that it still will sink slightly if left at room temperature. I am thinking about increasing the ratio of sugar syrup relative to the honey by a little, but don't want to do it so much as to drastically alter the texture or reduce the honey flavor, both of which are excellent.

One of the things I have changed from the Torres recipe is the roasting of the nuts. I have found that roasting the nuts at a lower temperature for longer helps me avoid overcooking them, while allowing them to become fully roasted. I roast at 250 degrees (20 min for the pistachios and 40 minutes for the almonds), then toss them in a large bowl as quickly as possible so they cool down.

[Desiderio]

Interesting thread ( been going for a while now P ).

I just wanted to point out that Torrone ( that is italian , and we make them for Christmas holidays ),has many different versions.One is the soft white with nuts wich can be hazelnuts, hazelnuts /pistacchios , almonds, almonds/ pistacchios.

Another type is a hard one , white with same type of nuts combinations.Then another type ( one of the many ) is a soft chocolate ( very very good ).

The procedure are the same as described above more or less , the soft one ( wich is either white or chocolate , cook the honey at 120 C, and the sugar glucosr syrup and water at 140C.The bowl of the mixer is kept warm while whipping the mass.

The hard one has a different procedure.It cook the honey at c aramel stage ( 140C), then the beaten ( at peaks) eggs white are added .then whitout stopping stirring ( they have special machine with a huge mixing bowl on heat source that allows the mas to cook and dry out without getting color, and a big paddle that stirr the mass constantly, for some of the hard torrone the mixing can take up to 8 hours ), after that you add the sugar /glucose syrup/water mixture ,that you previously cooked at 145/146C, stirring all the time kee tha mas moving cook till all the mass reaches 145 C, at the end add vanilla and when its ready add the nuts.

Our torrone is usually layed down on what we call cialde or ostie, I believe thats what you call rice paper, all the italian torrone are covered with that ,they jsut lay the paper in special trays ( or lines ) and pour the torrone mass on it and finish with another layer of the paper on top.

Well long post sorry I just thought I would claify the differences ( the old italian /french diatriba ).

[Darienne]

It seems that everyone's problem is that their nougat is too soft, too runny.

Confectionery partner, Barbara, and I made the Greweling nougat yesterday for the third time. The first two times, going back, were nothing short of stupendous. Not this time. The resulting nougat is hard, almost rock like, impossible to cut unless reheated in the microwave.

After heating for about 30-40 seconds, it softened greatly and I managed to cut it into very small pieces to dip into chocolate. As soon as it cooled it was back to crunchy. Not a tooth breaker, but not nougat like at all.

So...we followed the recipe and the time periods noted and temperatures exactly. Used my Canadian Tire instant readout thermometer which has been fine so far. (I should check it again.)

- it's a new to me stove and I don't know it all that well yet. Oh, it's a second hand stove too...don't know what difference that would make.

- we didn't heat up the pot of combined sugar, water, glucose ahead of time and it started on the stove at 28 degrees Celsius to get to 155 C degrees. This I think meant the whipping process went on too long. Next time we'll start the heating ahead of time.

- Barbara (yes, I can blame her ) insisted that we put the inclusions straight into the mixture to see what happened. Well, we had to pick a lot of them out of the whip. This would have prolonged the procedure.

- it seemed fine on the paper being rolled.

- put it into the garage to cool. Ontario garage...quite cold.

What thoughts and advice can anyone give me, please.

(Oh, I did dip it into chocolate and am giving it all to a "non-foodie" family up the road. The kids will eat it anyway and be thrilled. It tastes delicious...it's just all wrong. )

[DianaB]

I realise this is an old thread but is anyone making nougat at the moment?

 

As most of you will know I am far from experienced as a cook/pastry enthusiast/sweet maker.  This is the next project I would like to try, mostly because it is one of the very few sweet things I enjoy eating myself.  The recipe I plan to use is in French and here

http://www.mercotte.fr/2011/11/16/nougat-une-deuxieme-version-plus-classique-sans-chocolat-encore-un-cadeau-gourmand/

for anyone interested.  I will translate if anyone wants to try this along side me?

I have invested in the rice paper (thanks Amazon) so am ready to start.  I don't see my husband being happy about the suggested use of a blow torch but nor do I see blow torches mentioned in this thread so perhaps heating the bowl isn't necessary if temperatures of sugar and honey are right?

 

I'm really hoping some of you might want to have a go at this but will report back (might be a while, still swamped with work) with results.

[Thanks for the Crepes]

21 hours ago, DianaB said:

I realise this is an old thread but is anyone making nougat at the moment?

 

As most of you will know I am far from experienced as a cook/pastry enthusiast/sweet maker.  This is the next project I would like to try, mostly because it is one of the very few sweet things I enjoy eating myself.  The recipe I plan to use is in French and here

http://www.mercotte.fr/2011/11/16/nougat-une-deuxieme-version-plus-classique-sans-chocolat-encore-un-cadeau-gourmand/

for anyone interested.  I will translate if anyone wants to try this along side me?

I have invested in the rice paper (thanks Amazon) so am ready to start.  I don't see my husband being happy about the suggested use of a blow torch but nor do I see blow torches mentioned in this thread so perhaps heating the bowl isn't necessary if temperatures of sugar and honey are right?

 

I'm really hoping some of you might want to have a go at this but will report back (might be a while, still swamped with work) with results.

 

I did not even open your link to the video since, you said it would need translating. I am not even a novice, much less an expert at candy making, but I'm responding here to kick your post back up so maybe you can get some good advice from the people on here who are experts. Also I can add that there is more than one way to skin a cat (my mom's idiom, and she would never have contemplated really skinning a cat) or to heat a bowl. Oven, microwave and boil water in it, then wipe out, just pour stove top boiling water in in your sink, empty dishwasher on dry cycle. I too am afraid of blow torches, chainsaws and many other things. Besides, the intense heat of a blowtorch might be dangerous on a bowl, if that is what they're suggesting. My dad learned the hard way that you do not weld metal on a concrete garage floor. He wasn't hurt, but the explosion of the concrete was very scary to all of us. Then we had to repair the floor, so I'm with you. The blowtorch sounds like a bad idea.

[Lisa Shock]

I keep meaning to make some nougat, it's been a long time. My personal favorite is a recipe I got from Anil Rohira at World Pastry Forum. His formula includes freeze dried fruits and flower petals.

[DianaB]

Many thanks @Thanks for the Crepes and @Lisa Shock.  I'm still to find time to try this confection but I'll post a commentary of my attempt which will provide the essentials of the recipe without translating word for word.  

 

It is highly unlikely that I will employ a blow torch, the alternative proposed on the site I linked to above is a hair dryer which seems a less risky approach.  While I love making all manner of bonbons, sweet patisserie etc nougat is one of the very few such items I will happily eat and enjoy.  Perhaps the coming weekend will find me with sufficient time to have a first attempt.  I have ingredients to hand for a nut based variant, I'm sure the dried flower additions will result in a more sophisticated outcome, such to keep in mind if I manage to find a base recipe that works.

 

I'll report back in due course... 

[pastrygirl]

16 hours ago, Thanks for the Crepes said:

Besides, the intense heat of a blowtorch might be dangerous on a bowl, if that is what they're suggesting. ...  The blowtorch sounds like a bad idea.

 

I use a propane torch all the time to warm the bowl while re-beating previously frozen buttercream frostings.  The key is to keep the torch moving so you don't make any hot spots.  It's easy to see buttercream slide down the bowl as it melts, harder to see what's happening with nougat, which is so much thicker. 

[keychris]

Nougat may need heat on the bowl even if all your sugars were at the right temperature to get the correct moisture level for it to set up properly and not be soft and sticky. You'll need to test the nougat in cold water to check it's at a firm but slightly pliable consistency. Personal preference for me is heat gun, because that's what I already have for chocolate work, but I've seen it done with a blowtorch. Just remember to use a metal bowl