Kueh-Kueh, Double Double - Why Why?

[GaijinGirl]

...(Dangerous thing to do, I know)

But so many Malay/Indonesian dishes I've tried (and others) have a "double" title. Kueh, Kueh, Otak-otak, gado-gado, halo-halo, onde-onde. Why, why?

Is it a cultural thing? Can someone explain?

--Janet (Pitchblack)

[hzrt8w]

More example: bubur (almost a double) chacha (that's a double).

[Laksa]

In Malay, you make a noun plural by repeating it. So kueh kueh is the plural of kueh. Kueh-mueh is another common term, which means an assortment of kueh.

The converse isn't always true. Gado-gado is I believe just what that dish is called. I don't think it is the plural of gado. I don't even know what gado means -- gado-gado is Indonesian. So is onde-onde. Also don't think otak-otak is supposed to the plural of "brains".

I think there was another thread that discussed the origins of the name bubur chacha. Bubur is malay for congee/porridge, and one theory is that chacha came from Aceh, a place in Indonesia.

I didn't really answer your question, did I?

If I'm not mistaken halo-halo is Filipino.

Edited September 26, 2004 by Laksa (log)

[Pan]

Apparently, in Indonesian, "menggado" means to eat the side dishes (lauk), rather than the rice:

http://www.seasite.niu.edu/Indonesian/TataBahasa/dictionary/

Makan juga nasimu!  Jangan MENGGADO lauk saja. = Eat your rice also! Don't EAT THE SIDE DISHES only.

But "gado" also seems to have a connotation of a mixture:

*GADO-GADO: 1 a k.o. salad eaten with peanut sauce. 2 s.t. consisting of various elements.

Combinations/Idioms: lagu gado-gado=potpurri of songs; bersifat gado-gado=heterogeneous. ###

But there's no question that doubled words aren't always plurals. To give a food example, "matamata," meaning "policeman," is not the plural of "mata," meaning "eye." One can imagine an etymological relationship (the police are the eyes of the law, or something), but a literal plural it ain't.

[Laksa]

Thanks Michael! How fascinating that the Indoesians have a term like menggado. I wonder if that says anything about about Indonesian eating habits.

I think every language should have a word for this practice. If there are Chinese people reading, is there special Chinese term for eating the sung and not the rice?

Edited September 26, 2004 by Laksa (log)

[hzrt8w]

I think every language should have a word for this practice.  If there are Chinese people reading, is there special Chinese term for eating the sung and not the rice?

←

I don't know of a single Chinese word for this. In Cantonese, we do say someone "Sik sung mmm sik fan" (where "sik" = eat, "sung" = main dish, side dish, "mmm" is the negation, means "no", "fan" = rice). And this phrase usually has a negative connotation, and usually is used when parents lecturing their children over meals. Chinese believe that it's very important that you eat rice so that you can be healthy.

[Suburbanpeasant]

In Baba Malay (at least in Singapore), gado gado means to fight : so in my family at least, if we eat it up, we'll end up fighting.

Apparently, in Indonesian, "menggado" means to eat the side dishes (lauk), rather than the rice:

http://www.seasite.niu.edu/Indonesian/TataBahasa/dictionary/

Makan juga nasimu!  Jangan MENGGADO lauk saja. = Eat your rice also! Don't EAT THE SIDE DISHES only.

But "gado" also seems to have a connotation of a mixture:

*GADO-GADO: 1 a k.o. salad eaten with peanut sauce. 2 s.t. consisting of various elements.

Combinations/Idioms: lagu gado-gado=potpurri of songs; bersifat gado-gado=heterogeneous. ###

But there's no question that doubled words aren't always plurals. To give a food example, "matamata," meaning "policeman," is not the plural of "mata," meaning "eye." One can imagine an etymological relationship (the police are the eyes of the law, or something), but a literal plural it ain't.

←

[Suburbanpeasant]

In Teochew, the dishes are known as "kiam" - which sounds the same as salty - so a mother would complain if a child is a fussy eater with "chiak poong mai chiak kiam" (chiak = eat, mai = negation, poong=rice)

Thanks Michael!  How fascinating that the Indoesians have a term like menggado.  I wonder if that says anything about about Indonesian eating habits.

I think every language should have a word for this practice.  If there are Chinese people reading, is there special Chinese term for eating the sung and not the rice?

←

[Pan]

In Baba Malay (at least in Singapore), gado gado means to fight : so in my family at least, if we eat it up, we'll end up fighting.

←

That's bergaduh (same in standard Malay -- you can look it up here), not menggado. A search of the Indonesian-English dictionary linked above produces the same result, too.

[Suburbanpeasant]

The beauty of baba malay is it's neither standard malay nor indonesia - but the reference to fighting may be a pun on (ber)gaduh and gado (mix/disorderly).

I think the name is probably derived from the "mixture/salad" meaning than "lauk". In Indonesia today, some academics use the metaphor of gado-gado to discuss multiculturalism - various elements coming together under a sauce.

my 2 cents worth.

In Baba Malay (at least in Singapore), gado gado means to fight : so in my family at least, if we eat it up, we'll end up fighting.

←

That's bergaduh (same in standard Malay -- you can look it up here), not menggado. A search of the Indonesian-English dictionary linked above produces the same result, too.

←

[Mooshmouse]

In Malay, you make a noun plural by repeating it.  So kueh kueh is the plural of kueh.  Kueh-mueh is another common term, which means an assortment of kueh.

The converse isn't always true.  Gado-gado is I believe just what that dish is called.  I don't think it is the plural of gado.  I don't even know what gado means -- gado-gado is Indonesian.  So is onde-onde.  Also don't think otak-otak is supposed to the plural of "brains".

If I'm not mistaken halo-halo is Filipino.

←

Halo-halo is Filipino. (Or, more formally, halu-halo as the first "o" of two "o"s in sequence becomes a "u".)

Similar to Malay, repetition is an easy way of either adding emphasis or pluralizing nouns or verbs. The verb turo means to point. Turo-turo (or turu-turo) is a slang expression for a cafeteria-style or fast-food restaurant where you point out the dishes you'd like to order.

[helenjp]

That's another of the links between Japan, Southeast Asia, and the Pacific - in almost all those areas, repetitive words are common, and plurals are formed by repetition...